stock DME load limits hindering piggyback potential?

Penn999 · 01-13-2011, 11:38 AM

Best thread I have read in months, I learned a lot and probably only understood half of it. These next few months will be very interesting to say the least! Keep up the good work..

Jake@MOTIV · 01-13-2011, 11:42 AM

Chris - scary how familiar all this sounds

lol - we can't escape our past!!

Clap135 · 01-13-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyLow335i

Chris - scary how familiar all this sounds

lol - we can't escape our past!!

Yea lol, I was just tell Ben (theymyst) that. Im in a twilight zone...lol

itsbrokeagain · 01-13-2011, 12:34 PM

This goes back to the basics that I was shown when learning the ropes of tuning...although a little more complicated.

Unfortunatley its tough to learn on a Porsche and explore the envelope a bit without fear of breaking something..I would have liked to learn on a car that is a little more forgiving..

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 01-13-2011, 12:53 PM

Good read.... One of the more interesting threads Ive seen in months?years?

I like threads that stick to the facts, and the hard data.

The sales tactics and one ups and stuff just takes away from everything. Glad to see we havnt seen any of that really.

fisherbln · 01-13-2011, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxnix

So enlightening to see a civil and informative sequence of posts.

I too wonder if Shiv will offer a flash, but the capital investment has to be pretty high.

Shiv has said in the past that the capital investment for flashing is actually lower than piggybacks. He has also said that the current Procede is capable of flashing, just isn't implemented.

ETS Michael · 01-13-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fisherbln

Shiv has said in the past that the capital investment for flashing is actually lower than piggybacks. He has also said that the current Procede is capable of flashing, just isn't implemented.

Shiv is also releasing software which will allow your car to be custom tuned rather then just autotuned.

Visit his site.

http://procedetuning.com/BMW/n54/n54.html

"*Master Tuning Software to be released Feb 2011"

I think this is the reason for vin locking on the new v5

D.B.S · 01-13-2011, 01:30 PM

I'm too stupid to come up with this below, so lets keep things CIVIL (i'm just the middle man in this)

Copied this from N54Tech, from Terry to the conversation:

1) The premise of load limits holding back piggyback tuning is of course false as the piggyback can report any load it wishes back to the DME. And by peeking under the DME's skirt real time reading out CAN diagnostics we can see what the DME is looking for and a) set the tuning to hit objectives while keeping the DME reacting the way we want as we do with the JB4 or b) tell the DME what it wants to hear while independently recreating the tuning logic you want (procede). I wish dealing with my wife was this easy.

2) The DME's response to increasing knock feedback is to reduce advance and richen the air/fuel ratio. Timing reduction is then trended in long term (octane) and short term (knock) trims that work very similar to L/S fuel trims. It is trimmed by cylinder. Whomever said DME logic is migrating towards a single continuously adjustable value and away from high/low tables for advance for example is completely right.

3) In theory flash tuning is great because in theory you have access to every single table, a map for how they interact, and thus can recreate an OEM quality tune only scaled up to the power levels you're looking for. But in practice on the n54 there are many problems. I'll mention only a few of them.

a) Many of the tables one would want to tune the vehicle are not available. Having spent some time flash tuning the n54 using dimsport I was appalled at how limited their table selection was. As time goes on more and more tables will be found but don't make the mistake of thinking just because someone can flash tune today that they have access to everything one would want to do it.

b) The flash tune is confined by the DME's logic which at times is inconsistent with how one might want to tune. As a simple example I might want to specify a boost curve by RPM and IAT. But the DME doesn't work that way, it uses load/torque targets, meaning the boost pressure targeted is dynamic. During cold weather you'll get less boost and during hot weather more boost. Fair enough for a stock car where consistent performance is needed but when developing a performance tune it's counter intuitive. If there is additional performance on the table during cold weather for example we want to unlock that performance. Another example of this inconsistent logic is holding the throttle body open during manual transmission shifts.

c) BMW is actively trying to nerf aftermarket tuning and flash tuning is the most vulnerable to this. BMW need only change the keys required to load the tune to flat out kill it. Beyond that, they have built IPW/fuel usable limits in to the firmware which are much more difficult to deal with in a flash environment. With a piggy environment, we just alter the fuel pressure, giving the added benefit of an expanded HP range. This works as the fueling system is closed loop. Then we monitor the dme's observed LPH usage and ensure our tuning stays below the set limits. With a flash, you instead must alter many tables to trick the DME in to thinking it is targeting less load than it actually is. And in the end wind up with a convoluted and difficult to manage tune spread across many tables. Beyond that, the DME is mostly aware of the true boost pressure values and just like it stores the maximum RPM achieved appears to also store the maximum sustained KPA. This is done in a spot of the ECU only BMW has the keys to.

d) Certain things such as in dash gauges, progressive meth mapping, on the fly map switching on the steering wheel, dynamic gear based boost, etc, are much more difficult or impossible to do with a flash tune.

Where flash tuning shines is in delivering a nice stable 13-15psi tune that one can load from the drivers seat. It can do that quite well and because of that cobb is going to occupy a large share of the market. But that comes with a higher price tag and at the expense of many features IMHO. Given where we've been able to take the JB4 power and feature wise provided we can keep it at a much lower price point I don't see its market being impacted much.

shifterboy45 · 01-13-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The ECU can only do this if the mapping is consistent with the operating conditions/fuel quality. Pushed far enough beyond that and the engine will audibly knock. We have seen this on all overly aggressive tunes, regardless of tuning medium. Some, yourself included I believe, compensate for an overly aggressive tune (ie, standard tune used in especially harsh conditions or with low qualify fuel) by running octane booster or water injection. Others, like myself, would rather have a tune that automatically adjusts tune aggression proactively based upon historic knock retard activity. Also, keep in mind that our ignition target reduction is a short-term correction. What follows is a boost reduction which allow advance to creep up to desired levels. So efficiency reduction, elevated cat temps and elevated emissions aren't a concern

I think that is where the misunderstanding arises. Using a properly integrated piggyback doesn't not rob the DME of any of it's safety-related functionality. Nor is, in my opinion, the acceptable knock retard activity at stock power levels equal to the acceptable knock retard activity at 50% higher power levels. Which is why running a static DME flashed 15psi in harsh conditions usually results in audible knock.

Clearly the DME can "handle" a 40% bump in power. The question is whether it can do that with a greater safety margin. Or more power gains with the same safety margin. In a variety of different conditions. I'm sure we can agree that the next several months will be interesting for all.

And I have to say, it is refreshing debating these topics with another tuner, such as yourself, instead of a salesperson.

Cheers,
shiv

ps. On that note, it's late and I desperately need (or so I'm told) my beauty sleep.

prayers do get answered

D.B.S · 01-13-2011, 02:15 PM

^^^ To the above poster, if you have nothing TECHNICAL to add to the conversation, and don't want to listen to other TUNERS input on the subject because you don't like them or whatever, DON'T ADD anything that doesn't EDUCATE the rest of us who want to know what each TUNERs opinion on the matter is.

Comments like yours aren't helpful or appreciated

If anyone wants to read the thread it came from go here:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...t=11058&page=4

shifterboy45 · 01-13-2011, 02:28 PM

one thing i'd like to inject in this discussion is the original jist of this thread was very productive, and refreshing. the points and counterpoints made were in line with good practices and benefited the knowledge base of this community.

most people have little or no time to explore the inner working of the DME, but the tuners comment on joint venture development on the Motronic unit is dead on, and shows there is a significant relationship (time investment) on his part.

Shiv's cautionary approach has probably saved a lot of N54 motors, yet many argue that the "other" tunes are more powerful.

in the world of hackers, there is a mutual respect for each other (and their work).. this is just rule.. if a guy has a more elegant solution to a problem than you, u dont pick his apart to berate, u talk with him and learn.

please for the sake of sensibility .. i hope this thread stays on that track --

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 01-13-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army335xi

^^^ To the above poster, if you have nothing TECHNICAL to add to the conversation, and don't want to listen to other TUNERS input on the subject because you don't like them or whatever, DON'T ADD anything that doesn't EDUCATE the rest of us who want to know what each TUNERs opinion on the matter is.

Comments like yours aren't helpful or appreciated

If anyone wants to read the thread it came from go here:
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...t=11058&page=4

+ 1

BrianMN · 01-13-2011, 02:50 PM

Very good thread.

GeorgeSmooth · 01-13-2011, 05:26 PM

Great thread.
I think that Cobb is making rather bold statements in regard to DME Load limits. Can Cobb show me a car they have tuned that can run 19psi without the dash lighting up like a Christmas tree. At the moments it seems they have crossed the 15psi barrier which was done by a few in 2007 and thats as far as it went until GIAC made their stage two available which still sits at relatively low boost and is still in the easy category of flash tuning. Cobb has hit the board with a lot of promise but until I see a very high boost map working my hat remains on my head.

Bagelfast · 01-13-2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

Great thread.
I think that Cobb is making rather bold statements in regard to DME Load limits. Can Cobb show me a car they have tuned that can run 19psi without the dash lighting up like a Christmas tree. At the moments it seems they have crossed the 15psi barrier which was done by a few in 2007 and thats as far as it went until GIAC made their stage two available which still sits at relatively low boost and is still in the easy category of flash tuning. Cobb has hit the board with a lot of promise but until I see a very high boost map working my hat remains on my head.

+1
Nothing aganist anyone, but still sitting here looking for more data, dyno's, 1/4 mile times, and comparisons.Some E90post members always seems to be jump on new bandwagon without, sitting back and looking at everything.

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 01-13-2011, 05:45 PM

I too will be sitting in the background until I see more high boost data/driveability/advantages/ETC

My own analogy is...

Dont jump ship if you dont know if its sinking too.

H4n · 01-13-2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I too will be sitting in the background until I see more high boost data/driveability/advantages/ETC

My own analogy is...

Dont jump ship if you dont know if its sinking too.

cn555ic · 01-13-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I too will be sitting in the background until I see more high boost data/driveability/advantages/ETC

My own analogy is...

Dont jump ship if you dont know if its sinking too.

+1 With all that SHiv has done with the N54 over the course of 4 years for the N54, It would take alot for me to jump ship...Too much time vested in this platform to not trust his tune and any other...

BobS · 01-13-2011, 06:21 PM

I'm interested in the comment of the piggy's looking at one cylinder.....true or?

This is a very good thread. I am watching Cobb's product closely and hope to one day try it and dyno my car to compare to the current GIAC flash I have.

Good Read!

Jeff@TopGearSolutions · 01-13-2011, 07:10 PM

I think the BT tool only looks at cylinder 1.... So I wouldnt be surprised.

timtech · 01-13-2011, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cn555ic

+1 With all that SHiv has done with the N54 over the course of 4 years for the N54, It would take alot for me to jump ship...Too much time vested in this platform to not trust his tune and any other...

and we know he won't go down without a huge fight. I can't wait to test the latest maps that are going beta.

It's all personal preference. I don't want to swap maps if I'm going somewhere really hot and climbing foothills.... or log for knock if winter gas is pure trash. But that's my deal. Others may not care.

I do think it's great that more real tuners around joining in. The more the better. It's a win/win for all.

Bagelfast · 01-13-2011, 07:31 PM

This thread wouldnt be alive if we were a few years back. With piggybacks now showing CAN intergration, the game has changed. I am def. interested to see more discussion on this topic and some more questions answered. Terry has even given some discussion aswell, only wish all 3 tuners were together on one forum.

01-13-2011, 11:38 AM	#45
Penn999 Lieutenant Colonel 49 Rep 1,661 Posts Drives: 335i coupe Join Date: May 2010 Location: VA iTrader: (3)	Best thread I have read in months, I learned a lot and probably only understood half of it. These next few months will be very interesting to say the least! Keep up the good work.. __________________ 07' MT, Quaife LSD, BMW Performance LED Steering Wheel, HPF FMIC, AA BOV, HPF Exhaust, DCI, Procede V5, AR Stage 1 oil cooler, AR OCC, AR CL DP's, Vishnu Meth Kit, UUC SSK+DSSR, UUC Shift knob, (19 inch)VMR V715's/Yokohama Advan AD08's, Hartge Pedals and Floor Mats. Awaiting Install: M3 Rear Subframe Bushings, Full M3 suspension bits, AST 4100's, DSS axles. Future plans: Vishnu Single turbo kit
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01-13-2011, 11:42 AM	#46
Jake@MOTIV Captain 84 Rep 949 Posts Drives: 135i, 335i Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: MD & NC iTrader: (7)	Chris - scary how familiar all this sounds lol - we can't escape our past!!
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01-13-2011, 12:34 PM	#48
itsbrokeagain 310 Rep 15,745 Posts Drives: 1999 528iT, E53 X5, E46 325xi Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Strong Island iTrader: (7)	This goes back to the basics that I was shown when learning the ropes of tuning...although a little more complicated. Unfortunatley its tough to learn on a Porsche and explore the envelope a bit without fear of breaking something..I would have liked to learn on a car that is a little more forgiving..
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01-13-2011, 12:53 PM	#49
Jeff@TopGearSolutions 3441 Rep 79,212 Posts Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com iTrader: (37)	Good read.... One of the more interesting threads Ive seen in months?years? I like threads that stick to the facts, and the hard data. The sales tactics and one ups and stuff just takes away from everything. Glad to see we havnt seen any of that really.
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01-13-2011, 01:30 PM	#52
D.B.S Lieutenant Colonel 30 Rep 1,748 Posts Drives: '11 X5 35i / '13 S5 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Deployed to Kuwait iTrader: (2)	I'm too stupid to come up with this below, so lets keep things CIVIL (i'm just the middle man in this) Copied this from N54Tech, from Terry to the conversation: 1) The premise of load limits holding back piggyback tuning is of course false as the piggyback can report any load it wishes back to the DME. And by peeking under the DME's skirt real time reading out CAN diagnostics we can see what the DME is looking for and a) set the tuning to hit objectives while keeping the DME reacting the way we want as we do with the JB4 or b) tell the DME what it wants to hear while independently recreating the tuning logic you want (procede). I wish dealing with my wife was this easy. 2) The DME's response to increasing knock feedback is to reduce advance and richen the air/fuel ratio. Timing reduction is then trended in long term (octane) and short term (knock) trims that work very similar to L/S fuel trims. It is trimmed by cylinder. Whomever said DME logic is migrating towards a single continuously adjustable value and away from high/low tables for advance for example is completely right. 3) In theory flash tuning is great because in theory you have access to every single table, a map for how they interact, and thus can recreate an OEM quality tune only scaled up to the power levels you're looking for. But in practice on the n54 there are many problems. I'll mention only a few of them. a) Many of the tables one would want to tune the vehicle are not available. Having spent some time flash tuning the n54 using dimsport I was appalled at how limited their table selection was. As time goes on more and more tables will be found but don't make the mistake of thinking just because someone can flash tune today that they have access to everything one would want to do it. b) The flash tune is confined by the DME's logic which at times is inconsistent with how one might want to tune. As a simple example I might want to specify a boost curve by RPM and IAT. But the DME doesn't work that way, it uses load/torque targets, meaning the boost pressure targeted is dynamic. During cold weather you'll get less boost and during hot weather more boost. Fair enough for a stock car where consistent performance is needed but when developing a performance tune it's counter intuitive. If there is additional performance on the table during cold weather for example we want to unlock that performance. Another example of this inconsistent logic is holding the throttle body open during manual transmission shifts. c) BMW is actively trying to nerf aftermarket tuning and flash tuning is the most vulnerable to this. BMW need only change the keys required to load the tune to flat out kill it. Beyond that, they have built IPW/fuel usable limits in to the firmware which are much more difficult to deal with in a flash environment. With a piggy environment, we just alter the fuel pressure, giving the added benefit of an expanded HP range. This works as the fueling system is closed loop. Then we monitor the dme's observed LPH usage and ensure our tuning stays below the set limits. With a flash, you instead must alter many tables to trick the DME in to thinking it is targeting less load than it actually is. And in the end wind up with a convoluted and difficult to manage tune spread across many tables. Beyond that, the DME is mostly aware of the true boost pressure values and just like it stores the maximum RPM achieved appears to also store the maximum sustained KPA. This is done in a spot of the ECU only BMW has the keys to. d) Certain things such as in dash gauges, progressive meth mapping, on the fly map switching on the steering wheel, dynamic gear based boost, etc, are much more difficult or impossible to do with a flash tune. Where flash tuning shines is in delivering a nice stable 13-15psi tune that one can load from the drivers seat. It can do that quite well and because of that cobb is going to occupy a large share of the market. But that comes with a higher price tag and at the expense of many features IMHO. Given where we've been able to take the JB4 power and feature wise provided we can keep it at a much lower price point I don't see its market being impacted much. __________________ BMW X5 35i: Boopie Exhaust & Intercooler, K&N Drop in Filter, JB3 (3+ psi) 2013 Dodge Challenger R/T: CAI, Catch Can, Custom Exhaust, Headers, 87MM Throttle Body, Diablo Custom 93 OCT Tune
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01-13-2011, 02:15 PM	#54
D.B.S Lieutenant Colonel 30 Rep 1,748 Posts Drives: '11 X5 35i / '13 S5 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Deployed to Kuwait iTrader: (2)	^^^ To the above poster, if you have nothing TECHNICAL to add to the conversation, and don't want to listen to other TUNERS input on the subject because you don't like them or whatever, DON'T ADD anything that doesn't EDUCATE the rest of us who want to know what each TUNERs opinion on the matter is. Comments like yours aren't helpful or appreciated If anyone wants to read the thread it came from go here: http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showth...t=11058&page=4 __________________ BMW X5 35i: Boopie Exhaust & Intercooler, K&N Drop in Filter, JB3 (3+ psi) 2013 Dodge Challenger R/T: CAI, Catch Can, Custom Exhaust, Headers, 87MM Throttle Body, Diablo Custom 93 OCT Tune Last edited by D.B.S; 01-13-2011 at 02:25 PM..
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01-13-2011, 02:28 PM	#55
shifterboy45 Major 23 Rep 1,179 Posts Drives: 2009 335i Coupe Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: North by Northwest iTrader: (0)	one thing i'd like to inject in this discussion is the original jist of this thread was very productive, and refreshing. the points and counterpoints made were in line with good practices and benefited the knowledge base of this community. most people have little or no time to explore the inner working of the DME, but the tuners comment on joint venture development on the Motronic unit is dead on, and shows there is a significant relationship (time investment) on his part. Shiv's cautionary approach has probably saved a lot of N54 motors, yet many argue that the "other" tunes are more powerful. in the world of hackers, there is a mutual respect for each other (and their work).. this is just rule.. if a guy has a more elegant solution to a problem than you, u dont pick his apart to berate, u talk with him and learn. please for the sake of sensibility .. i hope this thread stays on that track --
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01-13-2011, 02:50 PM	#57
BrianMN Banned 114 Rep 2,428 Posts Drives: 4 Door Family Sedan Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Minneapolis iTrader: (7)	Very good thread.
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01-13-2011, 05:26 PM	#58
GeorgeSmooth Lieutenant 38 Rep 565 Posts Drives: 2008 E90 335i AT Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: South Africa iTrader: (0)	Great thread. I think that Cobb is making rather bold statements in regard to DME Load limits. Can Cobb show me a car they have tuned that can run 19psi without the dash lighting up like a Christmas tree. At the moments it seems they have crossed the 15psi barrier which was done by a few in 2007 and thats as far as it went until GIAC made their stage two available which still sits at relatively low boost and is still in the easy category of flash tuning. Cobb has hit the board with a lot of promise but until I see a very high boost map working my hat remains on my head. __________________ 08 E90 335i AT RB Turbos -NX Wet Kit - Chiplogic Flash or Procede V5- M3 Diff - AE Exhaust- Forge Dv's - Helix Intercooler - AR DP's - P3 Boost Gauge - Vishnu Meth- Stett Chargepipe and CAI 09 C63
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01-13-2011, 05:45 PM	#60
Jeff@TopGearSolutions 3441 Rep 79,212 Posts Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com iTrader: (37)	I too will be sitting in the background until I see more high boost data/driveability/advantages/ETC My own analogy is... Dont jump ship if you dont know if its sinking too.
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01-13-2011, 06:21 PM	#63
BobS Colonel 97 Rep 2,002 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Southern NJ iTrader: (0)	I'm interested in the comment of the piggy's looking at one cylinder.....true or? This is a very good thread. I am watching Cobb's product closely and hope to one day try it and dyno my car to compare to the current GIAC flash I have. Good Read! __________________ ESS 650 ACM-R Upgrades
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01-13-2011, 07:10 PM	#64
Jeff@TopGearSolutions 3441 Rep 79,212 Posts Drives: C6 Z06, 09 335i, 10 335xi Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: www.TopGearSolutions.com iTrader: (37)	I think the BT tool only looks at cylinder 1.... So I wouldnt be surprised.
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01-13-2011, 07:31 PM	#66
Bagelfast Lieutenant Colonel 125 Rep 1,546 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	This thread wouldnt be alive if we were a few years back. With piggybacks now showing CAN intergration, the game has changed. I am def. interested to see more discussion on this topic and some more questions answered. Terry has even given some discussion aswell, only wish all 3 tuners were together on one forum.
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