E90Post
 


Coby Wheel
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > Brakes not pressure bleeding - it was the Motive



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-03-2024, 07:45 PM   #1
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Brakes not pressure bleeding - it was the Motive

This is for my 128i, but it's all the same parts as an e9x and this forum sees far more traffic.

Went to change the brake fluid this afternoon, it's major service time. I have a Motive pressure bleeder, and I did this when I bought the car four years ago with no problems. This time, I can't get any flow to any of the calipers. Very, very odd. Motive seems to be building pressure fine, though the seal at the master cylinder isn't great and I had a bit of trouble with leaking. But I got it sealed up and even with 25psi in the bottle I am getting nothing.

I've been using Motive pressure bleeders for decades and never had this issue.

Tomorrow I may borrow my neighbor and try it the old-fashioned two-man manual way, but anyone have any bright ideas?
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire

Last edited by krhodes1; 11-04-2024 at 11:12 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 02:48 AM   #2
NZE90
Lieutenant
329
Rep
549
Posts

Drives: 325i
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: Straya

iTrader: (0)

Did you try removing the bleed nipple from the caliper? Sometimes they can become blocked.
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 08:09 AM   #3
eljay
Colonel
1841
Rep
2,370
Posts

Drives: ///M + E91
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NS

iTrader: (1)

That's strange.
Do you have INPA or ISTA? You can trigger the procedure there.
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 11:25 AM   #4
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NZE90 View Post
Did you try removing the bleed nipple from the caliper? Sometimes they can become blocked.
Sure did - nothing. It's really odd.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 11:33 AM   #5
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
That's strange.
Do you have INPA or ISTA? You can trigger the procedure there.
You don't need to trigger anything to normally bleed/flush the brakes absent replacing parts or otherwise running the system dry somehow. BTDT many times between my two BMWs (and tons of other cars with similar ABS systems).

I think something is FUBAR with my Motive. Ordered a new pressure bleeder that will be here today. I could see ONE caliper having an issue and not bleeding, but not all four.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 1
eljay1840.50
      11-04-2024, 12:41 PM   #6
lookalikehuuh
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
1030
Rep
1,542
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i, 2007 335i
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krhodes1 View Post
You don't need to trigger anything to normally bleed/flush the brakes absent replacing parts or otherwise running the system dry somehow. BTDT many times between my two BMWs (and tons of other cars with similar ABS systems).

I think something is FUBAR with my Motive. Ordered a new pressure bleeder that will be here today. I could see ONE caliper having an issue and not bleeding, but not all four.
I think your logic is possibly messed up here, there is a reason BMW created the specific bleed procedure in INPA/ISTA. Use the INPA procedure or do the old school 2 man procedure.

I can tell you though that there is nothing wrong with your Motive system the car was not designed to be bleed from the caliper itself.

Long story short, the bleeder valves in BMWs are designed to have fluid "pushed" by the system not "pulled" by a bleeder system like motive.

I have done like 10 blake bleed procedures on both of my E90s since I am religious with maintenance. Every time, except the very first time when I went down the rabbit hole like you are doing, I have used the INPA bleed procedure and it has been the easiest bleed ever done.
Appreciate 1
Mike K398.00
      11-04-2024, 12:53 PM   #7
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookalikehuuh View Post
I think your logic is possibly messed up here, there is a reason BMW created the specific bleed procedure in INPA/ISTA. Use the INPA procedure or do the old school 2 man procedure.

I can tell you though that there is nothing wrong with your Motive system the car was not designed to be bleed from the caliper itself.

Long story short, the bleeder valves in BMWs are designed to have fluid "pushed" by the system not "pulled" by a bleeder system like motive.

I have done like 10 blake bleed procedures on both of my E90s since I am religious with maintenance. Every time, except the very first time when I went down the rabbit hole like you are doing, I have used the INPA bleed procedure and it has been the easiest bleed ever done.
The Motive is a PRESSURE bleeding system. It is not pulling anything. I also have done this 10+ times on just my BMWs, and probably 50 times on other cars with similar systems. It does the exact same thing as the "two-man" method, albeit with lower pressures involved. But no more than 15-20psi should ever be needed to move fluid through the system.

The BMW procedure is for when components like the ABS pump have been replaced, or air has been introduced into them, for example by allowing the reservoir to run dry. It is not needed for routine brake bleeding/flushing.

I am going to bet that my new pressure bleeder works just fine, and something is wrong with this one and it's not passing pressure through the cap properly.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 1
      11-04-2024, 01:08 PM   #8
Ohio Enthusiast
Private
90
Rep
88
Posts

Drives: '11 E93 335i, '18 BRZ
Join Date: May 2024
Location: Dayton, OH

iTrader: (0)

Does depressing the brake pedal push fluid out of the caliper bleed plug? If so, the Motive is probably the issue. Does it hold pressure? Are you using it dry (just a source of pressure) or wet (filled with brake fluid)?

I use this pressure bleeder for my 335i, was the best bang for your buck that I could find. I use it dry (opening the cap to refill the brake fluid reservoir).
Appreciate 1
Mike K398.00
      11-04-2024, 01:50 PM   #9
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
Does depressing the brake pedal push fluid out of the caliper bleed plug? If so, the Motive is probably the issue. Does it hold pressure? Are you using it dry (just a source of pressure) or wet (filled with brake fluid)?

I use this pressure bleeder for my 335i, was the best bang for your buck that I could find. I use it dry (opening the cap to refill the brake fluid reservoir).
I don't know yet - no helper. The tank is holding pressure, but that doesn't mean it's getting to the reservoir.

The Motive bleeder is the same idea, slightly different execution. I have always used it wet, I don't really see the point of using one dry, that just increases the risk of running the reservoir dry and getting air in the system.

I have actually become disenchanted with the Motive bleeders, having had a couple fail in various ways. I ordered a different one that I like better that is a bit more advanced (multiple interchangable caps, pressure release valve, etc). I have one like that at my other place up north and like it a lot better anyway.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 02:01 PM   #10
Ohio Enthusiast
Private
90
Rep
88
Posts

Drives: '11 E93 335i, '18 BRZ
Join Date: May 2024
Location: Dayton, OH

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by krhodes1 View Post
I don't know yet - no helper.
You can get a "one-man" bleeder kit, or make your own. It's just a hose going into a bottle with the hose reaching the bottom of the bottle (to avoid sucking back air). You just put the hose on the bleeder plug, open it a bit, go into the car and pump the brakes a few times (depending on the capacity of the bottle and how quickly it drains the reservoir). It's the same as having to people or using a pressure bleeder, except you can't observe any bubbles escaping (if you're trying to make sure the system is fully bled of air).

Quote:
Originally Posted by krhodes1 View Post
I have always used it wet, I don't really see the point of using one dry, that just increases the risk of running the reservoir dry and getting air in the system.
Using it dry makes sure that a catastrophic failure under pressure won't spray brake fluid everywhere. I've read too many stories like that for Motive bleeders to ever use something like that wet. Also, you don't need to clean up the bleeder from brake fluid.

I have a mason jar that accepts the used brake fluid from the bleed plugs that I marked with how much I can bleed before I need to refill the reservoir (as well as how much to bleed from each wheel).
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 02:01 PM   #11
mattanderson
Second Lieutenant
286
Rep
233
Posts

Drives: 2007 E92 328i
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookalikehuuh View Post
I think your logic is possibly messed up here, there is a reason BMW created the specific bleed procedure in INPA/ISTA. Use the INPA procedure or do the old school 2 man procedure.

I can tell you though that there is nothing wrong with your Motive system the car was not designed to be bleed from the caliper itself.

Long story short, the bleeder valves in BMWs are designed to have fluid "pushed" by the system not "pulled" by a bleeder system like motive.

I have done like 10 blake bleed procedures on both of my E90s since I am religious with maintenance. Every time, except the very first time when I went down the rabbit hole like you are doing, I have used the INPA bleed procedure and it has been the easiest bleed ever done.
Sorry but are you actually familiar w/ the Motive? Because it's definitely not "pulling".

Even the INPA/ISTA procedure is intended to be used with a pressure bleeder (like the Motive) applying pressure.
Appreciate 0
      11-04-2024, 03:07 PM   #12
Mike K
Lieutenant
Mike K's Avatar
United_States
398
Rep
450
Posts

Drives: 2011 e91 328i RWD
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Chicago Area

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
It’s my understanding that ISTA wants a pressure bleeder but INPA doesn’t as shown here:

Appreciate 1
      11-04-2024, 11:04 PM   #13
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
it was the Motive, as I expected. New bleeder worked just fine with the usual 15psi in it.

That is the last Motive I will ever buy. But a very odd failure. It was passing fluid sufficiently to fill up the master cylinder, but not enough pressure to allow it to bleed, even though it was building pressure just fine. it went into the circular file.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 1
Mike K398.00
      11-04-2024, 11:12 PM   #14
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast View Post
You can get a "one-man" bleeder kit, or make your own. It's just a hose going into a bottle with the hose reaching the bottom of the bottle (to avoid sucking back air). You just put the hose on the bleeder plug, open it a bit, go into the car and pump the brakes a few times (depending on the capacity of the bottle and how quickly it drains the reservoir). It's the same as having to people or using a pressure bleeder, except you can't observe any bubbles escaping (if you're trying to make sure the system is fully bled of air).



Using it dry makes sure that a catastrophic failure under pressure won't spray brake fluid everywhere. I've read too many stories like that for Motive bleeders to ever use something like that wet. Also, you don't need to clean up the bleeder from brake fluid.

I have a mason jar that accepts the used brake fluid from the bleed plugs that I marked with how much I can bleed before I need to refill the reservoir (as well as how much to bleed from each wheel).
I prefer to just use it the way it is intended and save the bother.

As I said, I have done it 50+ times with this style bleeder, and while I have now worn out or had them fail three times in the past 25 years or so, it has never been in any way "catastrophic". One had the pump fail, one had the hose fail (split while in storage), and now one has some sort of blockage. But as I said, I like the other style better. It's the one that BavAuto used to sell under their brand, but you can get them as no-names on Amazon for very reasonable money (and delivered overnight, in this case). Much more convenient to use than the Motive. We will see how long this pair last.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2024, 08:43 AM   #15
eljay
Colonel
1841
Rep
2,370
Posts

Drives: ///M + E91
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NS

iTrader: (1)

Good to hear you got it solved. My Motive bleeder is somehow not sealing properly around the pressure gauge. I can get it to hold pressure where I "tighten" it just right, but yeah it takes some fiddling with it.

Also, INPA/ISTA process allows you to trigger ABS pump and bleed it.

And all of this just reminds me that I'm due to change my brake fluid.
Appreciate 0
      11-05-2024, 08:43 PM   #16
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljay View Post
Good to hear you got it solved. My Motive bleeder is somehow not sealing properly around the pressure gauge. I can get it to hold pressure where I "tighten" it just right, but yeah it takes some fiddling with it.

Also, INPA/ISTA process allows you to trigger ABS pump and bleed it.

And all of this just reminds me that I'm due to change my brake fluid.
I'm really done with them. This one is probably only five years old and has only been used maybe five-six times.

Now to wait for the hurricane to pass by in the gulf and take the rain away so I can do the rear shocks and change the coolant on Saturday. Then hopefully the car will be happy for a while.
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 0
      11-09-2024, 04:44 PM   #17
Mike K
Lieutenant
Mike K's Avatar
United_States
398
Rep
450
Posts

Drives: 2011 e91 328i RWD
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Chicago Area

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Just did the brake fluid change today. I used INPA per the above youtube. I also used an Ebay bleed bottle like this one below and I must say it was the easiest brake fluid change ever. Nothing was spilled which was a first for me! The chain and bottle capacity made the job much easier than smaller bottles that tip over with wimpy hoses and rubber fittings that usually leak.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15614758395...mis&media=COPY

INPA's procedure got the ABS pump running (makes a sort of fish pump noise) and flushing fluid at each caliper too. I had a trickle charge on the battery at the under hood points. But INPA was finished at each corner only after a few pedal pumps and I felt like more fluid should be changed.

So I just continued a few more cycles around the four corners old school without INPA and just the pedal, until the bleeder bottle was full and the fresh 32 oz Dot 4 bottle was mostly empty. Carefully topping up the MC as I went. The rear calipers took a 9mm, and the front an 11mm bleeder screw wrench.

I also rotated the tires while the car was up on 4 jack stands with two floor jacks centered fore and aft. I had no issues climbing in and out of the car to run INPA and manage the many pedal pushes with support in 6 places and all the wheels off. Greased the contact points at each wheel to prevent stubborn wheel removal.

Brakes feel great!
Appreciate 0
      11-10-2024, 08:00 AM   #18
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
19294
Rep
19,766
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

I made a catch bottle out of an empty washer fluid jug. I drilled a 1/4" hole in the cap, stuck a white opaque rigid plastic tube down to the bottom of the jug. Then attached 20" or so of flexible clear surgical tubing to the plastic tube. The surgical tubing fits on the bleeder value. I hang the jug from the suspension with some leftover solid 12/3 electrical wire. All stuff I had laying around my shop.
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 1
Mike K398.00
      11-10-2024, 08:03 AM   #19
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
19294
Rep
19,766
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike K View Post
Just did the brake fluid change today. I used INPA per the above youtube. I also used an Ebay bleed bottle like this one below and I must say it was the easiest brake fluid change ever. Nothing was spilled which was a first for me! The chain and bottle capacity made the job much easier than smaller bottles that tip over with wimpy hoses and rubber fittings that usually leak.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15614758395...mis&media=COPY

INPA's procedure got the ABS pump running (makes a sort of fish pump noise) and flushing fluid at each caliper too. I had a trickle charge on the battery at the under hood points. But INPA was finished at each corner only after a few pedal pumps and I felt like more fluid should be changed.

So I just continued a few more cycles around the four corners old school without INPA and just the pedal, until the bleeder bottle was full and the fresh 32 oz Dot 4 bottle was mostly empty. Carefully topping up the MC as I went. The rear calipers took a 9mm, and the front an 11mm bleeder screw wrench.

I also rotated the tires while the car was up on 4 jack stands with two floor jacks centered fore and aft. I had no issues climbing in and out of the car to run INPA and manage the many pedal pushes with support in 6 places and all the wheels off. Greased the contact points at each wheel to prevent stubborn wheel removal.

Brakes feel great!
Use an old broom stick to push the pedal. Then no need to get in and out of the car...
__________________
A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
Appreciate 1
Mike K398.00
      11-10-2024, 10:43 PM   #20
mainbearing
Lieutenant Colonel
1142
Rep
1,742
Posts

Drives: BMW 328i
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: LA

iTrader: (0)

Anyone tried this vacuum tool?

https://www.harborfreight.com/pneuma...kit-57057.html

Appreciate 0
      11-11-2024, 07:11 AM   #21
Efthreeoh
General
United_States
19294
Rep
19,766
Posts

Drives: The E90 + Z4 Coupe & Z3 R'ster
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mainbearing View Post
Looks like overkill to me.
Appreciate 0
      11-19-2024, 10:00 PM   #22
krhodes1
Colonel
1618
Rep
2,626
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i Wagon
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Westbrook, Maine, Port Charlotte, Florida

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 128i  [10.00]
2011 BMW 328i Touring  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mainbearing View Post
I have never had much luck with suction bleeding anything. Either pressure bleed, or use a BMW scan tool/INPA to activate the pump (which I think is overkill for a routine fluid change).
__________________

'11 328! Touring - Tasman on Chestnut, 6spd manual, factory upside-down "i" option
'11 128i Convertible - Space Gray on Savannah Beige, 6spd manual,
also '14 Mercedes-Benz E350 wagon, '95 Land Rover Discovery, '74 Triumph Spitfire
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST