[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by Icelandic

Last night track day

Love those wheels. 19's?

[sirdaft1]

Getting fitted in the car and checking head clearance with the roll cage before cage is welded up. I'm 6'3" and these e90's have LOTS of room, even with a cage.

[Icelandic]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Love those wheels. 19's?

Yes sir,

19x8,5 et20 and 19x9,5 et23

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by feuer

No BMW can compete with BRZ/FRS on autocross or track.

I don't know about that.

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I don't know about that.

They do have a distinct advantage because of size. It is a generalisation.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

They do have a distinct advantage because of size. It is a generalisation.

I mean they are smaller, but that doesn't mean too much.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

They do have a distinct advantage because of size. It is a generalisation.

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I mean they are smaller, but that doesn't mean too much.

Is not that they are smaller. The chassis is a lot better. Well balanced. Is build for track and auto cross. E9x not so much

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

I don't know about that.

I speak from personal experience. I'm well seasoned on the track. Is my 7th year. Over at least 50 track days. The majority will share my opinion.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by feuer

Is not that they are smaller. The chassis is a lot better. Well balanced. Is build for track and auto cross. E9x not so much

Originally Posted by feuer

I speak from personal experience. I'm well seasoned on the track. Is my 7th year. Over at least 50 track days. The majority will share my opinion.

The E46 M3 says 'what's up.'

[Taskmaster]

https://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8400

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

The E46 M3 says 'what's up.'

Should I copy paste your post #290 ? I wound't know, honestly they either look away or star in the ground. M owners are proud to admit defeat.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by feuer

Should I copy paste your post #290 ? I wound't know, honestly they either look away or star in the ground. M owners are proud to admit defeat.

Well, that link is 'just' a E46 330i that is dominating it class. I don't know what basis you think you have on the statement "the FRS chassis is superior to any BMW" but it's not fact.

And that's said by a guy who is barely a BMW fan.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Well, that link is 'just' a E46 330i that is dominating it class. I don't know what basis you think you have on the statement "the FRS chassis is superior to any BMW" but it's not fact.
And that's said by a guy who is barely a BMW fan.

Are the above BMW running in same class with BRZ/FRS? If they are not then BMW dominating the class is irrelevant. I'm not hard core BMW fan either. My basis are based purely on observation what is going on when these cars hit the track. There are a lot of factors involved.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by feuer

Are the above BMW running in same class with BRZ/FRS? If they are not then BMW dominating the class is irrelevant. I'm not hard core BMW fan either. My basis are based purely on observation what is going on when these cars hit the track. There are a lot of factors involved.

I feel a bit of deja vu coming on... this exact conversation played out elsewhere lol

Sorry, butnot true at all. I pass up brz/frs all day at the track. Not even a supercharged brz can keep pace with a 135i. My 128i did get outrun by a trd package frs on track though while I was fairly stock.

As for autocross, the 128i has had plenty of success. Kyle himself in his 128i was often as little as 4 tenths behind the leading frs/brz car. It really all comes down to the driver at that point.

People have said a 128i takes a lot of prep... well honestly no... a limited slip, a square 255 tire setup, and a nice set of coilovers. Why is that so hard? That keeps you in stx and allows you all the flexibility you need set up a podium car. Some people just make some questionable decisions in how they set up their cars. The n51 would be the better buy for autocross since you can run a tune that takes advantage of the 3 stage intake manifold. That alone gives the 128i a superior power to weight ratio over an frs/brz. Balance? Both cars are 50:50 rwd with McPherson front suspenion.

As for the 135i, it just doesn't do the cars power justice to leave it in stock trim or other less modified classes. As I learn autocross, I am slowly nipping at the times of the evo/stis that I run in street modified with. These are cars that ran several second faster raw times at recent pro solo events than any brz or frs did.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

As for autocross, the 128i has had plenty of success. Kyle himself in his 128i was often as little as 4 tenths behind the leading frs/brz car. It really all comes down to the driver at that point.

People have said a 128i takes a lot of prep... well honestly no... a limited slip, a square 255 tire setup, and a nice set of coilovers. Why is that so hard? That keeps you in stx and allows you all the flexibility you need set up a podium car. Some people just make some questionable decisions in how they set up their cars. The n51 would be the better buy for autocross since you can run a tune that takes advantage of the 3 stage intake manifold. That alone gives the 128i a superior power to weight ratio over an frs/brz. Balance? Both cars are 50:50 rwd with McPherson front suspenion.

On paper it seems pretty easy, but it's far from the case really.

I campaigned the 128 for 3 years and ultimately sold the car. I had a pretty good stint in it as records would show:

1st - 2014 Toledo Pro Solo
1st - 2015 Wilmington Spring ProSolo
Super Challenge Winner - 2015 Wilmington Spring ProSolo
2nd - 2015 Wilmington Summer ProSolo
1st - 2015 Toledo Match Tour
1st - 2015 ProSolo Finale
2015 STX ProSolo Overall Champion
5th - 2015 Nationals
2nd - 2016 Wilmington Spring ProSolo
1st - 2016 Wilmington Summer ProSolo
2nd - DC Champ Tour
2nd - Wilmington Champ Tour
1st - Pittsburgh Match Tour
1st/2nd - 2016 ProSolo Finale
1st/3rd STX ProSolo Overall Champion (depending on official ruling)
7th - 2016 Nationals

While the car was really good, you can see that it was really good at only one thing, ProSolos. Sure the car could launch and pull 2.1s off the line (don't try to compare this to a dragstrip 60' please) and it would out 200' any other STX car. However it lost time everywhere on course. So essentially you won buy being able to out accelerate the other cars in the class. For example, the FRS/BRZ can 60' around 2.4. Buy the time you get to 200' you're easily 5 tenths or so behind the 128. If you look at those events you will see I'm not wining by seconds. I'm barely scratching on by.

So, I sold the 128 and went to a 2016 FRS. While I had a rough start to the season, I'd have to say I'm pretty confident in the car now.

I threw a set of MCS 2-way externals, Wheels/Tires, Header/Exhaust/Tune and we're at a level of DD comfort the 128 never had.

I'm sitting at 2620 lbs, where the 128 was 2924 lbs and had a loud ass exhaust, tight seats, and bushings that made the whole interior rattle.

The past 4 event (Bristol Champ Tour, Bristol Match Tour, Toledo Champ Tour, Oscoda ProSolo) I've beat the class by 1 second+

The FRS is so much easier to drive than the 128. You can't even compare the 2 to this. Corner entry and exit speeds are drastically higher. The 128 you had to give up entry to let the car take a set, and be patient on exit before getting on throttle so you could get power down. FRS I can be on throttle before apex and carry it all the way out.

Sure, on the track the FRS "may" run out of steam on the straights. But guaranteed tick for tack it will out corner you any day of the week.


Also, "I pass these cars on the track everyday" isn't really that much of a valid reasoning. Unless you're doing competition (Whether autox/TT/w2w) your opinion is nothing more than that, an opinion.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Sure, on the track the FRS "may" run out of steam on the straights. But guaranteed tick for tack it will out corner you any day of the week.

Also, "I pass these cars on the track everyday" isn't really that much of a valid reasoning. Unless you're doing competition (Whether autox/TT/w2w) your opinion is nothing more than that, an opinion.

I was replying to a post made purely based on what someone "sees happening when these cars hit the track." I've never seen an FRS/BRZ outrun any BMW at any track days I've been to. They are great handling cars that are fun to drive ABSOLUTELY. So is a Miata, but even the fastest Miatas spend all day pointing people by. I was directly replying to a general statement that an FRS/BRZ is a better track/autocross car than any BMW is. That's just dead wrong.

Like you admit yourself, there is more to a car being fast around a course than absolute handling. To say the BRZ/FRS corners harder so therefore it's a better car is just ridiculous. If you want to argue SPECIFIC situations like 128i vs the twins in STX trim, then you already proved my point that it's pretty much a toss-up. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses and the course and driver dictate who podiums.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

The FRS is so much easier to drive than the 128.

128i does have a pretty crappy steering ratio. It's 16:1 whereas the FRS gets a 13:1 rack. Big advantage there for the FRS in how much steering input is required.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

and had a loud ass exhaust, tight seats, and bushings that made the whole interior rattle.

Exhaust? I highly doubt the exhaust modifications you did were a necessity to be competitive. Also, you did headers on your FRS, so how is exhaust noise any different beside you maybe getting a bit carried away with the 128i exhaust mods? Same deal with the bushings. On a road-course bushings become more important when you're braking from 120mph to 30mph and dynamic alignment changes can play a role in how well the car handles. On an autocross course? Not so much... the extra compliance of the soft factory bushings probably would've left you with an easier car to drive that was able to put power down better on the naturally tighter autocross courses. Some of the fastest cars on an autocross course have soft bushings and massive suspension travel. Stiffer isn't better for improving mechanical grip.

Great example here of a pro-solo competitive car. It certainly doesn't make his is car slower having an extremely compliant suspension which producers greate mechanical grip. I highly doubt he'd be competitive in W2W racing on a road-course with this type of build though:


Also, I am having trouble seeing how a FRS/BRZ is "less tight" than a 128i. Do you mean it comes with better stock seats? That I'd agree with. The stock 128i seats are pretty flat and crappy (135i seats are very nice in comparison). Overall, the FRS/BRZ is much more "tight" though.

I know I am more or less just picking apart your statements, but I do understand your overall point that the FRS/BRZ is the "better" car out of the box. It's an easier car to jump into and have fun with. The 128i is first a budget luxury car before it's modified to become a sports car.

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

I was replying to a post made purely based on what someone "sees happening on the track." I've never seen an FRS/BRZ outrun any BMW at any track days I've been to. They are great handling cars that are fun to drive ABSOLUTELY. So is a Miata, but even the fastest Miatas spend all day pointing people by. I was directly replying to a general statement that an FRS/BRZ is a better track/autocross car than any BMW is. That's just dead wrong.

Like you admit yourself, there is more to a car being fast around a course than absolute handling. To say the BRZ/FRS corners harder so therefore it's a better car is just ridiculous. If you want to argue SPECIFIC situations like 128i vs the twins in STX trim, then you already proved my point that it's pretty much a toss-up. Each car has its strengths and weaknesses and the course and driver dictate who podiums.



128i does have a pretty crappy steering ratio. It's 16:1 whereas the FRS gets a 13:1 rack. Big advantage there for the FRS in how much steering input is required.



Exhaust? I highly doubt the exhaust modifications you did were a necessity to be competitive. Same deal with the bushings. On a road-course bushings become more important when you're braking from 120mph to 30mph and dynamic alignment changes can play a role in how well the car handles. On an autocross course? Not so much... the extra compliance of the soft factory bushings probably would've left you with an easier car to drive that was able to put power down better on the naturally tighter autocross courses. Some of the fastest cars on an autocross course have soft bushings and massive suspension travel. Stiffer isn't better for improving mechanical grip.

Great example here of a pro-solo competitive car. It certainly doesn't make his is car slower having an extremely compliant suspension which producers greate mechanical grip. I highly doubt he'd be competitive in W2W racing on a road-course with this type of build though:


Also, I am having trouble seeing how a FRS/BRZ is "less tight" than a 128i. Do you mean it comes with better stock seats? That I'd agree with. The stock 128i seats are pretty flat and crappy (135i seats are very nice in comparison). Overall, the FRS/BRZ is much more "tight" though.

I know I am more or less just picking apart your statements, but I do understand your overall point that the FRS/BRZ is the "better" car out of the box. It's an easier car to jump into and have fun with. The 128i is first a budget luxury car before it's modified to become a sports car.

Sure, FRS/BRZ isn't better than ANY BMW. But when I'm comparing to a Non-M E9x and E82, it blows it out of the water for autocross.

For what it's worth, I think a full prep 128i in TTD can be competitive, but still has a uphill battle against a TTD S2000 or FRS/BRZ. They're kind of made for the class.

I think my argument was pretty valid comparing the 2. Both cars are similarly prep'ed (actually the FRS isn't prep'd as well as my 128 was) and it's a night and day difference. I can show data logs of lateral load Gs and anything else you'd want to prove my point. But the fact that I was trying to show, is that the 128 was only really good at accelerating. And it did well in events where courses favored that. The funny thing was though, I NEVER won a Tour in the 128. I jumped in my FRS and now have won 2 this year. Without a ProSolo launch, the 128 is at a serious deficit.

128i has a higher CoG (like a lot higher) and carries 300 more lbs (more like 400+ for any other normal 128 not like mine that I owned).

Uh, an exhaust is imperative on this car. I'll wait for haters to come on in, but I did a Y-Pipe merge off the header into a single 3" exhaust, single 100 cell cat into a Borla XR-1 muffler dumping after the differential.

I went from ~220 whp (on dyno) to 241 whp at 217 ft-lbs all from an exhaust change. I let the tune adapt to my changes.

So yea, I'd say an exhaust is kind of key on this car, but what the hell do I know.

Also, here is my exhaust, if you go to the 1:00 mark

RE: Bushings - You're just wrong. Why would you want your shock to dampen another piece of the suspension when it's already trying to effectively dampen the body? The rear subframe moves with OE bushings in there, the thrust and control arms take an absolute beating underload and fail, and the transmission bushing can't tolerate a high RPM 3 -> 2 downshift. This is the type of knowledge you'd figure out if you actually campaigned a car. It's funny to hear everyone throughout forums come through and say "Prepping a 128 is easy, just throw springs and shocks with a diff and you're good to go and be competitive".

I've seen 4 other 128s join the SCCA National Circuit, and YET have I seen one be as competitive as mine. So as much as you'd like to criticize what I've done to my car, I'd look at the results and bite your tongue .

Seats in the 128 came out and replaced with Recaro SPGs. They're too heavy. FRS/BRZ seats weigh 35lbs and don't need to be replaced to save any weight.

Anyways, it's probably a losing battle, but clearly if you're recommending someone to use "softer bushings" because you're better able to get power down well....

Also, nice picture of a STS Miata...or even an ES Miata. Either way, massive droop length on the shocks doesn't help you show any point you're trying to make

My car setup was extremely soft too, but you would know everything...

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Sure, FRS/BRZ isn't better than ANY BMW. But when I'm comparing to a Non-M E9x and E82, it blows it out of the water for autocross.

For what it's worth, I think a full prep 128i in TTD can be competitive, but still has a uphill battle against a TTD S2000 or FRS/BRZ. They're kind of made for the class.

non M BMW's do just fine. You could argue that the 330I E46 has the advantage of having a lighter chassis (which I don't think it does) and a wider track than the E8X, but the 1 series (and E9X) are literally better everywhere else. Better engines, better suspension geometry, stiffer chassis.

Terry was setting records in TTD with just a simple coilover conversion on B14 PSS.

IT just happens to be that autocross rewards cars that can perform quick transitions and utilize momentum. I still believe the 1 series could have been more competitive with better coilovers, bushings - but whatever.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I think my argument was pretty valid comparing the 2. Both cars are similarly prep'ed (actually the FRS isn't prep'd as well as my 128 was) and it's a night and day difference. I can show data logs of lateral load Gs and anything else you'd want to prove my point. But the fact that I was trying to show, is that the 128 was only really good at accelerating. And it did well in events where courses favored that. The funny thing was though, I NEVER won a Tour in the 128. I jumped in my FRS and now have won 2 this year. Without a ProSolo launch, the 128 is at a serious deficit.

Well yeah, it's heavier and the course that favor momentum are going to favor the FRS. The massive amount of torque he N5X offered over the unit in the FRS is what gave you the holeshot advantage.

Then again, you are also running a superior damper over what was in the 1 series.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

128i has a higher CoG (like a lot higher) and carries 300 more lbs (more like 400+ for any other normal 128 not like mine that I owned).

Uh, an exhaust is imperative on this car. I'll wait for haters to come on in, but I did a Y-Pipe merge off the header into a single 3" exhaust, single 100 cell cat into a Borla XR-1 muffler dumping after the differential.

I went from ~220 whp (on dyno) to 241 whp at 217 ft-lbs all from an exhaust change. I let the tune adapt to my changes.

So yea, I'd say an exhaust is kind of key on this car, but what the hell do I know.

Uh huh. Guess who was the guy who told you that? And it was 228whp to 241whp with the addition of an intake as well. You could have remained more civil with a XS Pro Muffler (Which flow the same and are quieter) Granted those number would have had a bigger delta if the dyno was made with a complete stock exhaust.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Also, here is my exhaust, if you go to the 1:00 mark

RE: Bushings - You're just wrong. Why would you want your shock to dampen another piece of the suspension when it's already trying to effectively dampen the body? The rear subframe moves with OE bushings in there, the thrust and control arms take an absolute beating underload and fail, and the transmission bushing can't tolerate a high RPM 3 -> 2 downshift. This is the type of knowledge you'd figure out if you actually campaigned a car. It's funny to hear everyone throughout forums come through and say "Prepping a 128 is easy, just throw springs and shocks with a diff and you're good to go and be competitive".

You're not the first person to drive a BMW.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I've seen 4 other 128s join the SCCA National Circuit, and YET have I seen one be as competitive as mine. So as much as you'd like to criticize what I've done to my car, I'd look at the results and bite your tongue .

Seats in the 128 came out and replaced with Recaro SPGs. They're too heavy. FRS/BRZ seats weigh 35lbs and don't need to be replaced to save any weight.

Anyways, it's probably a losing battle, but clearly if you're recommending someone to use "softer bushings" because you're better able to get power down well....

Also, nice picture of a STS Miata...or even an ES Miata. Either way, massive droop length on the shocks doesn't help you show any point you're trying to make

My car setup was extremely soft too, but you would know everything...

[Kgolf31]

We're talking about specifics here, since we're comparing cars in the same class. I'm not making wild accusations here that a FRS can beat a 135i. They're not even in the same field.

I'd love to have someone with a 128 prove me wrong. But I don't think it'll happen. I've done enough testing and tuning (along with one other person) to figure out that dampers, springs, bushings cannot improve the platform leaps and bounds over a FRS. I wanted to be a believer over the FRS...I tried for 3 years.

But jumping in a FRS and significantly going quicker off the bat with 0 development time? That should say something.

Terry has MCSs now.

Anyways, 2016 Western NASA Championship seems to tell a different story. Mazda Miata ahead of a BRZ by 2 seconds, with a E36M behind the BRZ by another 2 seconds.

My comparison with ProSolo was against David Marcus, who ran his BRZ with KWv3s.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

We're talking about specifics here, since we're comparing cars in the same class. I'm not making wild accusations here that a FRS can beat a 135i. They're not even in the same field.

I'd love to have someone with a 128 prove me wrong. But I don't think it'll happen. I've done enough testing and tuning (along with one other person) to figure out that dampers, springs, bushings cannot improve the platform leaps and bounds over a FRS. I wanted to be a believer over the FRS...I tried for 3 years.

But jumping in a FRS and significantly going quicker off the bat with 0 development time? That should say something.

Terry has MCSs now.

Anyways, 2016 Western NASA Championship seems to tell a different story. Mazda Miata ahead of a BRZ by 2 seconds, with a E36M behind the BRZ by another 2 seconds.

My comparison with ProSolo was against David Marcus, who ran his BRZ with KWv3s.

Well that 'one other person' was full of shit since day one.

But who knows. Having single piston double adjustable unit with years of development vs a twin shock design on a chassis you pioneered....hmmm.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

Uh, an exhaust is imperative on this car. I'll wait for haters to come on in, but I did a Y-Pipe merge off the header into a single 3" exhaust, single 100 cell cat into a Borla XR-1 muffler dumping after the differential.

I went from ~220 whp (on dyno) to 241 whp at 217 ft-lbs all from an exhaust change. I let the tune adapt to my changes.

I am not saying the mods weren't effective. No hate at all man, impressive gains for sure. I suggested it wasn't a NECESSITY to go to those lengths to pick up a few whp that made 0 difference in your autocross times... There is no reason to hold those gains (and resulting noise) as a PENALTY against the 128i. You made the choice to mod the exhaust that way.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

RE: Bushings - You're just wrong. Why would you want your shock to dampen another piece of the suspension when it's already trying to effectively dampen the body? The rear subframe moves with OE bushings in there, the thrust and control arms take an absolute beating underload and fail, and the transmission bushing can't tolerate a high RPM 3 -> 2 downshift. This is the type of knowledge you'd figure out if you actually campaigned a car. It's funny to hear everyone throughout forums come through and say "Prepping a 128 is easy, just throw springs and shocks with a diff and you're good to go and be competitive".

What? Regardless of how much success you had with your 128i, you are not making me very confident that you actually knew about the parts you threw at the car... Soft bushings don't make your shocks work harder. Soft bushings absorb load. They act as dampers. Stiffening bushings to preserve alignment settings is a compromise that does not help deliver torque to the ground. Generally, when you stiffen something you reduce mechanical grip. The deflection in the control arm bushings might lead to inconsistency on a road course (which makes the compromise worth it), but the dynamic changes that occur to alignment actually lend themselves to autocross work.

And... now you are completely exaggerating about stock OE bushing failure. No doubt the stock 128i bushings are soft. Transmission bushings are definitely too soft. They cost $40 and take about 10 minutes of your time to replace. I have never heard of anyone having trouble with a 3-2 downshift though lol... the 1-2 upshift at high rpm is the notchy shift I am sure the stock bushings in your FRS won't feel all that great either after a few years of beating on them at autocross.

Originally Posted by Kgolf31

I've seen 4 other 128s join the SCCA National Circuit, and YET have I seen one be as competitive as mine. So as much as you'd like to criticize what I've done to my car, I'd look at the results and bite your tongue.

That's my whole point. You've had success with it! It's a solid car! So are the mini coopers, vw's and the countless other cars that have had a podium finish in the same class over the FRS/BRZ! I personally already acknowledged that the FRS/BRZ is the much better car out of the box for autocross! I was replying to people making blanket statements about the car and you replied personally.

[Aus335iguy]

Loving the banter in here and good to see robust debate. It's far more civil and has less emotion and more fact than other forums I've been on in the past. There's even been some pictures of race cars in here just not the BMW ones that many would come to see!

Unfortunately this debate isn't likely to end in a definitive answer because there isn't one. Can we just agree to disagree and stick to the topic at hand ?