[OmahaDZL]

In the last 2 years so many advancements have been made in the realm of turning up the boost and the fuel, making them more efficient, adding hybrids...so whats the latest development? Water/meth injection has be a huge topic of discussion the last 6 months to a year. And to my knowledge there isnt a thread that really focuses on meth alone. So Im going to start this one in the hopes that the gurus chime in and make this a go to thread. By gurus Im referring to Whitbread TDIwyse DWR Wrecker335d but Im sure there are others. Those guys are the main players in a thread that contains a TON of info but the thread is so big and sprawling that it doesnt focus on Meth enough in my opinion. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...light=advanced

So heres some of the questions that come up alot and some of the answers that are sometimes given.....true or not, please chime in gurus.

Q1. Do I need to re-tune if I want to install meth?
A1. Most of the time, no. But it depends on what you are doing. For the most part the DDE will adjust to the cooler temps and the higher fueling. However, if you are running huge nozzles or high meth percentage, you may end up with detonation so your timing will have to be turned back a couple of degrees to account for that.
(This is where I need the pros to chime in and fill in the missing details)

Q2. We have all heard that the "correct" place to put the nozzle is in the cold side charge pipe...is that still the recommendation based on testing or just ceremony? What about the bungs in the race pipe?
A2. I have no idea...

Q3. Given Q1, what is safe to run (nozzle size + meth %) so as to not risk detonation without adjusting timing?
A3. ?

Q4. There are lots of options out there (Snow, aquamist, etc) What are the pros and cons of each system. Im assuming that for the most part they are the same, its the controller that differentiates. Likely some additional sensors that are optional, so what is the technical details about other installations?
A4 ?

Q5. What makes it so damn hard to use the DEF tank as the meth tank? I know its doable, but why is it so difficult? Everyone says to just skip it and go with the meth tank in the trunk
A5 ?

Q6. When mixing meth 50/50, given that meth weighs less than water, how do you judge 50/50?
A6. Mix by weight....ie....2 lbs of meth and 2 lbs of water......NOT 1 gallon and 1 gallon.

Q7. Will Meth stop CBU?
A7. Meth alone will NOT stop CBU. CBU is a combination of oil present in the system and exhaust soot. Meth will not be able to clear or keep it clear. However, if you remove the EGR or block the EGR (or tune it out) the meth will keep the oil buildup down.

Q8. If Im driving and I run out of meth, what will happen to my car?
A8. Likely nothing but less performance....


Im sure there will be more....and Ill add to them if needed, but thats a start. Gurus, please fill in the blanks for us meth newbies.

[dmanb2b]

Antoher sticky worthy thread, when completed.

[Torqu3]

I'll add this link to my thread as well.

[Bob@BPC]

Q1. Do I need to re-tune if I want to install meth?
A1. Most of the time, no. But it depends on what you are doing. For the most part the DDE will adjust to the cooler temps and the higher fueling. However, if you are running huge nozzles or high meth percentage, you may end up with detonation so your timing will have to be turned back a couple of degrees to account for that.

You injector timing is not calculated from the air intake temperature. Its calculated off fuel temperature. And in the case of timing, you want more with meth. The answer is yes, for max power with meth, the tune needs to be adjusted

Q2. We have all heard that the "correct" place to put the nozzle is in the cold side charge pipe...is that still the recommendation based on testing or just ceremony? What about the bungs in the race pipe?
A2. I have no idea...

You will not see any power gain placing the nozzle before the charge air temp sensor, all it will do is add more fuel and if you are near the limit of your injectors or fuel pump, you are going backwards.

Q3. Given Q1, what is safe to run (nozzle size + meth %) so as to not risk detonation without adjusting timing?
A3. ?

In the case of diesel fuel, the correct term is diesel knock and once again, if you do not have the correct timing you will see small gains. If you are running a stock tune or a 2 or 2.5 or 2.8, the safe bet is a 50/50 mix of meth and spray no more than 600cc/min

Q4. There are lots of options out there (Snow, aquamist, etc) What are the pros and cons of each system. Im assuming that for the most part they are the same, its the controller that differentiates. Likely some additional sensors that are optional, so what is the technical details about other installations?
A4 ?

Stay away from AEM's kit.. I've done dyno tunes with almost all big name kits and the best by far is torqbyte, this would be recommend for pro users and if you want an easier controller to use, I would recommend Snow Performance Diesel kit.

Q5. What makes it so damn hard to use the DEF tank as the meth tank? I know its doable, but why is it so difficult? Everyone says to just skip it and go with the meth tank in the trunk
A5 ?

Dave needs to make a how to on this

Q6. When mixing meth 50/50, given that meth weighs less than water, how do you judge 50/50?
A6. Mix by weight....ie....2 lbs of meth and 2 lbs of water......NOT 1 gallon and 1 gallon.


Q7. Will Meth stop CBU?
A7. Meth alone will NOT stop CBU. CBU is a combination of oil present in the system and exhaust soot. Meth will not be able to clear or keep it clear. However, if you remove the EGR or block the EGR (or tune it out) the meth will keep the oil buildup down.


Q8. If Im driving and I run out of meth, what will happen to my car?
A8. Likely nothing but less performance....

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by OmahaDZL

...
Q1. Do I need to re-tune if I want to install meth?
A1. Most of the time, no. But it depends on what you are doing. For the most part the DDE will adjust to the cooler temps and the higher fueling. However, if you are running huge nozzles or high meth percentage, you may end up with detonation so your timing will have to be turned back a couple of degrees to account for that.
(This is where I need the pros to chime in and fill in the missing details)

...

Q3. Given Q1, what is safe to run (nozzle size + meth %) so as to not risk detonation without adjusting timing?
A3. ?

Q4. There are lots of options out there (Snow, aquamist, etc) What are the pros and cons of each system. Im assuming that for the most part they are the same, its the controller that differentiates. Likely some additional sensors that are optional, so what is the technical details about other installations?
A4 ?

...

Q6. When mixing meth 50/50, given that meth weighs less than water, how do you judge 50/50?
A6. Mix by weight....ie....2 lbs of meth and 2 lbs of water......NOT 1 gallon and 1 gallon.

This can get very complicated. The DDE utilizes 2 pilot injection events depending on rpm and output levels (these can be logged and measured). The pilot injection events can alter the beginning of combustion, which can have large impacts on how methanol burns inside the cylinder. Furthermore, boost levels also impact combustion timing events... so we have multiple variables interacting that can significantly impact how methanol burns inside the cylinder.

DWR put together some great info in this thread where he describes areas of concern: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=83

Even without multiple pilot injection events, the cylinder pressure issue can arise if getting too extreme with methanol utilization at high BMEP levels (see attached chart from a controlled study where direct cylinder pressure measurements were performed for various scenarios of boost and methanol utilization).

If we had the ability to measure cylinder pressures, that would help a bunch in understanding the "safe" limits ...

To help deal with these issues, many years ago I made my own controller that utilizes boost and rpm in controlling water/methanol injection. With a simpler boost only controller, the injection would start earlier in the rpm range than I wanted (our cars with stock turbo's have max boost in the mid rpm region where at least one pilot injection even is used). Now there are commercial controllers available that allow for very sophisticated maps to control injection (I'm still using my redneck homemade controller as it seems to work good enough).

If you want to play it safer, don't go above 50/50 water/methanol mixes (the water portion gives margin on pre-ignition behaviors). I utilize a hydrometer for measuring density ratio's. I think most other people just use "volume".

[Mrdeezy]

I started using m5 VP methanol 100% it really adds quite a kick! All of my research said not too. I called VP tech and said it would be ok. Oh yeah NEVER EVER BUY THE AEM KIT!!
It filled my engine with water twice. Lucky I didn't blow. This is a common occurance with that kit.

[335dsleeper]

You're running straight 100% meth?

Originally Posted by Mrdeezy

I started using m5 VP methanol 100% it really adds quite a kick! All of my research said not too. I called VP tech and said it would be ok. Oh yeah NEVER EVER BUY THE AEM KIT!!
It filled my engine with water twice. Lucky I didn't blow. This is a common occurance with that kit.

[OmahaDZL]

Originally Posted by Bob@BPC

Q1. Do I need to re-tune if I want to install meth?
A1. Most of the time, no. But it depends on what you are doing. For the most part the DDE will adjust to the cooler temps and the higher fueling. However, if you are running huge nozzles or high meth percentage, you may end up with detonation so your timing will have to be turned back a couple of degrees to account for that.

You injector timing is not calculated from the air intake temperature. Its calculated off fuel temperature. And in the case of timing, you want more with meth. The answer is yes, for max power with meth, the tune needs to be adjusted

Q2. We have all heard that the "correct" place to put the nozzle is in the cold side charge pipe...is that still the recommendation based on testing or just ceremony? What about the bungs in the race pipe?
A2. I have no idea...

You will not see any power gain placing the nozzle before the charge air temp sensor, all it will do is add more fuel and if you are near the limit of your injectors or fuel pump, you are going backwards.

Q3. Given Q1, what is safe to run (nozzle size + meth %) so as to not risk detonation without adjusting timing?
A3. ?

In the case of diesel fuel, the correct term is diesel knock and once again, if you do not have the correct timing you will see small gains. If you are running a stock tune or a 2 or 2.5 or 2.8, the safe bet is a 50/50 mix of meth and spray no more than 600cc/min

:

Thanks for chiming in Bob@BPC . You were one of the folks I hoped would, but I didnt want to call you out as you are a dealer and I havent discussed this with you. I do need a few clarifications from what you wrote though.

In Answer 3 you gave a GREAT answer: 50/50 with 600cc max (total Im guessing) for a stock, 2.5 or 2.8 tune would be fine, but on question 1 you said that Yes, to get max power with meth your tune needs adjusted. I think I understand what you are saying here, but I dont think it would be clear to actual newbies.

I believe you are saying that to get the FULL effect and power of Meth...to be able to run 1000cc and to be able to really push the limits of it....you need a modified tune. But, if you are looking for 50-ish hp bump, and to keep your engine clean....no need... Correct?

On Answer 2: We shouldnt be putting a nozzle before the charge air temp sensor....where is that? And can you give a quick sentence or two on why that would be going backwards? Im guessing what you will say is that the DDE will attempt to compensate by upping the fuel to the point that the pump cant keep up....but isnt that define by the pressure requested based on the map?

Thank you for your time and input, if you have any other things that you get asked a lot, please share.

[Hoooper]

Originally Posted by Mrdeezy

Oh yeah NEVER EVER BUY THE AEM KIT!!
It filled my engine with water twice. Lucky I didn't blow. This is a common occurance with that kit.

Is that the fault of the controller or some other part of the kit?

[Mrdeezy]

Originally Posted by Hoooper

Is that the fault of the controller or some other part of the kit?

The Aem controller failed twice. I sent the first one back and they replaced it under warranty. Then it failed again. At that point I just threw it in the trash and bought a Snow mpg max controller. From talking to the Aem people at length, this is a more common problem than you would except. They even had a term they used when the controller would lock on.

[Mrdeezy]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

You're running straight 100% meth?

Yep, stainless steel lines

[OmahaDZL]

Originally Posted by Mrdeezy

Yep, stainless steel lines

So, since we got the above info .... how many cc's are you running, who did your tune and did they account for the amount and % you were going to be running?

How do you have it set up to turn on? RPM alone? boost level?

[335dsleeper]

Stainless line would be the least of my concern.

What snow controller are you running? Running high ratios of meth isn't the same as 50/50. You need to be careful when you inject and the quantity. The basic progressive control isn't the best way to control meth, especially at the higher ratio you're running.

TDIwyse and DWR provided info, i recommend taking a look to avoid a potential issue with your car.

There are serious gains to be had from 75-100% but at what cost? A simple peak in load/boost at a low RPM could be catastrophic!

I'm very interested in seeing your results and I wish you the best, just be careful. I'd hate to see you have an issue due to injecting too much too soon. i.e. high load @ low RPM

Originally Posted by Mrdeezy

Yep, stainless steel lines

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by OmahaDZL

On Answer 2: We shouldnt be putting a nozzle before the charge air temp sensor....where is that? ...

If you want to be able to accurately measure the evaporative cooling impact of the water/methanol injection, you need to inject before the CACT so it can measure what is going on... If you're modeling the engine behavior, you need good data to work with.

Ideally, the CACT sensor would be at the same location as the boost sensor, so you would see the boost at the location where the CACT data is measured. The OEM CACT sensor is pretty low on the charge pipe, whereas the boost sensor is towards the back of the intake manifold.

Also, the farther away from the cylinders the injection occurs, the more time the liquid droplets have to evaporate, which can be important from an air density perspective and volumetric efficiency perspective, which can impact power output.

Another benefit from injecting pre-CACT sensor is it can aid in diagnosing issues with your water/methanol system. You will measure a significant impact to CACT's when the injection happens vs when it doesn't. Or you can use a flow gauge which measures flow directly (which is what I've had for several years now ... very useful for calibrating injection strategies).

An early example of rpm/boost based injection strategy and flow gauge data:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/m1R-GM...vq=hd1080&fs=1

[WreckerX5d]

Thanks for the mention, but I do not consider myself an expert on methanol injection. I do not entirely know the physics behind what's going on, just the basic ideas of pressure increase and combustion after the diesel does.

Of the articles I have read, I have not once seen where methanol will cause detonation on a diesel. If someone can show me, that would be great as I would like to read up on the causes. I did come across an article from the SAE website stating that methanol requires higher compression to auto-ignite compared to diesel, but pure methanol fuel in a CI engine is possible.

A kit I would recommend is just using a Torqbyte controller, and which ever pump you feel like buying. The Torqbyte controller is very good, and it really is not that hard to setup. The maps are straight forward as you just enter a number between 1-100 to adjust percentage at what RPM and PSI.

I've been running 1000cc nozzles and 70:30 ratio with good success using the TB controller, vs the AEM linear boost one. The AEM would cause quenching at that flow but the TB does not due to the way I made the map.

Horsepower and displacement are the key factors in choosing the nozzle sizes, and there are charts out there as a general guideline. I would go and conservatively choose the nozzle off those charts, and then either increase or decrease from there based off your driving habits; unless you want to just inject under WOT.

[OmahaDZL]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

If you want to be able to accurately measure the evaporative cooling impact of the water/methanol injection, you need to inject before the CACT so it can measure what is going on... If you're modeling the engine behavior, you need good data to work with.

Ideally, the CACT sensor would be at the same location as the boost sensor, so you would see the boost at the location where the CACT data is measured. The OEM CACT sensor is pretty low on the charge pipe, whereas the boost sensor is towards the back of the intake manifold.

Also, the farther away from the cylinders the injection occurs, the more time the liquid droplets have to evaporate, which can be important from an air density perspective and volumetric efficiency perspective, which can impact power output.

Another benefit from injecting pre-CACT sensor is it can aid in diagnosing issues with your water/methanol system. You will measure a significant impact to CACT's when the injection happens vs when it doesn't. Or you can use a flow gauge which measures flow directly (which is what I've had for several years now ... very useful for calibrating injection strategies).

An early example of rpm/boost based injection strategy and flow gauge data:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/m1R-GM...vq=hd1080&fs=1

Interesting stuff....Thanks TDI,
So if Im understanding this correctly, what we really should have is a bung in the racepipe that would accommodate our OEM CACT and the meth injectors should be where the CACT is. That would get the CACT closer to the boost pressure sensor and give us the ability to read the temp more accurately.

Have you done this ? Or rigged up your own redneck style?

[Mrdeezy]

Originally Posted by OmahaDZL

So, since we got the above info .... how many cc's are you running, who did your tune and did they account for the amount and % you were going to be running?

How do you have it set up to turn on? RPM alone? boost level?

I run 250cc on the first stage that starts at 20psi. The power stage goes on at 29psi and is at 750cc. The Snow mpg max takes am egt and boost level input. Which is hooked up but I set it up to run off the boost input.

My tune is Jarek 2.8. They do not tune for meth.

[Mrdeezy]

Originally Posted by 335dsleeper

Stainless line would be the least of my concern.

What snow controller are you running? Running high ratios of meth isn't the same as 50/50. You need to be careful when you inject and the quantity. The basic progressive control isn't the best way to control meth, especially at the higher ratio you're running.

TDIwyse and DWR provided info, i recommend taking a look to avoid a potential issue with your car.

There are serious gains to be had from 75-100% but at what cost? A simple peak in load/boost at a low RPM could be catastrophic!

I'm very interested in seeing your results and I wish you the best, just be careful. I'd hate to see you have an issue due to injecting too much too soon. i.e. high load @ low RPM

I am running the Vp m5. Which is a totally different formula. I have to drive 30 miles to pick up Meth here and they ran out of the m1. So I was frustrated and just bought the m5. The m5 does not mix with water and is not something that I am ever going to buy again for various reasons. It's basically for cars that run off of meth and it's not very good for the pump seals. Normally when I use m1 I mix it like a strong drink. All alcohol and splash of whatever/distilled water on top. Something around 80% roughly. I have been doing this for 18 months now.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by Wrecker335d

...
Of the articles I have read, I have not once seen where methanol will cause detonation on a diesel. If someone can show me, that would be great as I would like to read up on the causes. I did come across an article from the SAE website stating that methanol requires higher compression to auto-ignite compared to diesel, but pure methanol fuel in a CI engine is possible.
...

Most of the articles I've seen are on more basic diesel engines that don't utilize pilot injection. But here's some data from a paper by Wei that shows the area of concern I have with the pilot injection. Note the movement of the temperature spikes moving up and to the left.

Should note that this was at very low BMEP on the turbo charged direct injected diesel engine... which really isn't the type of application we are discussing. I'd like to see this test redone at high BMEP's, as the cylinder pressure behavior gets much more concerning as shown in the previous graphs I posted. Using pilot injection to start the fire, or having in-cylinder temps high enough under extreme boost to self ignite methanol, is a potentially very bad thing.

[TDIwyse]

Originally Posted by OmahaDZL

Interesting stuff....Thanks TDI,
So if Im understanding this correctly, what we really should have is a bung in the racepipe that would accommodate our OEM CACT and the meth injectors should be where the CACT is. That would get the CACT closer to the boost pressure sensor and give us the ability to read the temp more accurately.

Have you done this ? Or rigged up your own redneck style?

I have my main injector as close to the output of the intercooler as reasonably possible. Which is only ~6 inches from the CACT sensor.

I think I'd rather have the CACT sensor in the manifold, close to the boost sensor. I think 335dsleeper is looking into doing something like this on his vehicle.

[OmahaDZL]

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I have my main injector as close to the output of the intercooler as reasonably possible. Which is only ~6 inches from the CACT sensor.

I think I'd rather have the CACT sensor in the manifold, close to the boost sensor. I think 335dsleeper is looking into doing something like this on his vehicle.

Given what you said about as close together as possible, I can totally understand that....but given that most wouldnt want to modify that plastic, OEM thing......AND given that we have already developed a race pipe for this application, I was thinking it would be an acceptable compromise.

OR, maybe modify the race pipe to contain both the CACT and the Boost pressure sensor and relocate both there...

Thoughts?

[335dsleeper]

I am but, for a different reason. If I find a compatible sensor, I'll let you guys know.

Originally Posted by TDIwyse

I have my main injector as close to the output of the intercooler as reasonably possible. Which is only ~6 inches from the CACT sensor.

I think I'd rather have the CACT sensor in the manifold, close to the boost sensor. I think 335dsleeper is looking into doing something like this on his vehicle.