[tlow98]

Wait a minute, you'd rather buy rough riding shocks AND install them and ride around for 10's of thousands of miles than remove the rear shocks twice and be happy all the time?

The reality is that even the Konis on full soft in the rear are prolly better than 90% of the market. Just give them a 30% from soft setting and I bet you're 90% of the way there.

You're over thinking this.

Good known product > all else.

Originally Posted by tlow98

Wait a minute, you'd rather buy rough riding shocks AND install them and ride around for 10's of thousands of miles than remove the rear shocks twice and be happy all the time?

The Dinans are modified to allow for adjustment from above; well worth the premium:
https://www.dinancars.com/products/s...arts/D140-0946

[W37V]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

So springs that are the same spring rate as stock will supposedly have the same ride quality as stock, "but when pushed are better." Grammar aside, how could that statement possibly make any sense?

I did say this, but that is what everyone says as eibach springs are progressive. I can't prove this, but I think numerous people riding on these springs are saying (not just on e9x platform).

Also, of all the mods these cars can benefit from, "lower center of gravity" is towards the bottom of the list when it comes to appreciable differences. Read page 39...you can't argue with science:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bH...erform&f=false

That was really interesting reading. If you have more like it to share, please do so. However, I searched for Robert Bowen and I can't necessarily find anything on him to gives validity to his claims. Seems like a super smart dude, but other than BMW using similar MacPherson setup, it does not mean it automatically translates into every possible car using the same tech. Books talks about e30 which was developed in 70's. Let's put age aside. All of what he says is about e30 and how everything is being affected in e30. Do you think that e30 and e90 have same center of gravity, or roll center?

I don't care what springs or marketing material says. I am not here to debate anything of that sort. I asked for opinion and experience. I got it. However, given the empirical data performed by TireRack and several other notable institutions, every single test revealed that pro-kit springs improved handling of the vehicle. Go check out liked article and video. It's an interesting read. Also, how do you explain every single review on these springs which mentions that ride improved, is more direct, is not punishing?

I am not here to debate springs, lowering, brands etc. I don't know enough about them to even say two coherent sentences, but I know when someone is talking out of their ass.

Stiffer spring rates, stiffer bushings, etc. those will all help tame weight transfer/deflection for sure ... the only time you ever read about supposed benefits of lower center of gravity anymore is on the back of those dusty/old product pamphlets you would likely find on the sales counter at your local Meineke.

I got those already to some extend. All m3 bits up front and Eibach front sway bar. Rear soon to be installed along with subframe inserts.

So why did you even bother mentioning Yellows previously?

I mentioned as tlow98 kept suggesting it.

And forgo all the benefits of lower center of gravity!? For shame

Shame indeed.

All that aside, I do appreciate the input. It's valuable. I think it did help me reach a decision.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by tlow98

Wait a minute, you'd rather buy rough riding shocks AND install them and ride around for 10's of thousands of miles than remove the rear shocks twice and be happy all the time?

Initial inquiry was about B4 shocks, which in theory should not be rough riding. B6/8 are the stiff ones. So, it is exactly opposite what I want. I want to get it done right the first time around. I got burned by "internet (forum) experts" when I got my B6 shocks instead of B8s. The sad part is, when I pointed out how wrong these "experts" were, I was told by yet another "forum expert" that I was harsh and hurting their feelings. I had fun on my B6s, but they seem to be leaking (shaft looks wet) and I am over bouncy ride. If keeping stock springs is the answer, so be it.

The reality is that even the Konis on full soft in the rear are prolly better than 90% of the market. Just give them a 30% from soft setting and I bet you're 90% of the way there.

That seems to be about right.

You're over thinking this.

Good known product > all else.

I think you are absolutely right. Koni appears the way to go.

Thank you for your time to document you knowledge and provide input in civil way. I think I have enough information on this topic to make a decision.

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by W37V

Initial inquiry was about B4 shocks, which in theory should not be rough riding. B6/8 are the stiff ones. So, it is exactly opposite what I want. I want to get it done right the first time around. I got burned by "internet (forum) experts" when I got my B6 shocks instead of B8s. The sad part is, when I pointed out how wrong these "experts" were, I was told by yet another "forum expert" that I was harsh and hurting their feelings. I had fun on my B6s, but they seem to be leaking (shaft looks wet) and I am over bouncy ride. If keeping stock springs is the answer, so be it.


That seems to be about right.


I think you are absolutely right. Koni appears the way to go.

Thank you for your time to document you knowledge and provide input in civil way. I think I have enough information on this topic to make a decision.

Yeah man, no worries. I wonder what dinan recommends setting their rear yellows to upon installation? If you can find that info and it's relevant (same shock) I would go with that.

Also, as mentioned Dinan (and TCKline) make rear top adjustable Koni shocks. I've never brought myself to spend that much on them, however. Always wanted, but alas, ever the miser I am. They're normally a little less than 2x the cost, which is not trivial. Then you cant use the cheap (and awesome) rear Monroe shock mounts without modifying them either as the shaft diameter is 2mm larger (12 vs 10). Of course, Dinan will sell you the top mount kit in 12mm size, but ya know after all that, you've spent ~$500 EXTRA for rear top adj's.

For that money, I'd just leave the rear end tore apart for a couple of days and ride around to assess. This way R&I time is cut down.

But ya know, I'm always looking to save a buck. ymmv

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

The Dinans are modified to allow for adjustment from above; well worth the premium:
https://www.dinancars.com/products/s...arts/D140-0946

They are awesome and I've always wanted them, but I'm just so cheap. After the shocks and the Dinan top mounts (bc of the thicker shafts) it's something like an extra ~$500. Pretty big increase in price for the rear adjustable, at least to me.

Plus, in the wagons it's such a pain in the a$$ to get to the rear top mounts, you might as well just pull the damn shock.

Coupes and Sedans have it much easier in that respect.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by tlow98

Yeah man, no worries. I wonder what dinan recommends setting their rear yellows to upon installation? If you can find that info and it's relevant (same shock) I would go with that.

They list it on their site including alignment specs. However, I don't think running lower pressure on wider tires might lead to uneven wear (sides wearing out faster than middle).

Tire Pressure:
Front:35lb
Rear:35lb

Shock settings:
Front:1 1/4 from full soft
Rear: 1 1/4 from full soft

Alignment:
Full tank, no weights.

Stage 1 & 2
Front:
Camber: -0.6
Caster: 6.5
Total toe: 0.17

Rear:
Camber: -1.6
Toe: 0.23

Stage 3:
Camber: -1.1
Caster: 6.5
Total toe: 0.17

Rear:
Camber: -1.8
Toe: 0.23

Source: https://documents.dinancars.com/d100-0925.pdf

Originally Posted by W37V

.

A MacPherson strut is a MacPherson strut is a MacPherson strut...doesnt matter if it's on an "old tech" car like the E30, or on this platform...which, at ~15 years is pretty old tech at this point as well.

Here's another article you can just as easily google yourself:
https://whitelineperformance.com/blo...ight-affect-it

My goal isn't to scientifically prove something to you that's already been scientifically proven...if the topic sparked your interest, there's plenty to read about it online. Who knows, maybe you'll read about it from someone that has the required valadility you desire as well.

TireRack does in fact sell quality parts. Just because it's sold on TireRack though doesn't mean it's the best solution for every goal. To put 100% of your trust in their marketing is absurd though, any way you cut it. They also sell H&R extreme lowering springs for this platform...at 2"+ drop it doesn't mean the quality of the springs are junk, but likely not the best option for 99% of those shopping for springs on this platform either.

I've had good luck with Eibach pro-kits on other platforms, but thats because the specs on those pieces, when compared to stock, made sense in those situations. For this platform they do not. The only thing gained is a drop in height...that's it.

Also, the glowing reviews you've read on the B12 kits are from people that are coming from crap factory dampers and have nothing else to compare it to. 99% of the benefits they're seeing are coming from the dampers themselves...not the springs. This is why you'll see just as positive of reviews coming from B6/B8 owners that kept their stock springs. If you look hard enough, you'll also find reviews of peeps that are blowing through compression and slamming into the bumpstops on the B12 setup...this is what's known as deductive reasoning. Already been mentioned in this post, so feel free to re-read it.

Also, don't feel bad about the B6 debacle. Bilstein originally specified non-sport and sport spring owners to use B6 dampers, leaving B8s to be speced for aftermarket lowering springs only. That has since been revised. I too had the problem. On sport springs up front, my B6s lasted only 60k miles. B8s are in there now and it's all good....it is what it is.

At some point you just gotta use some common sense when it comes to this stuff...the info is out there and easy to find. If you're more interested in just following the crowd and joining the sheep, go right ahead, there's nothing wrong with that...just do it already so you no longer have to waste any time convincing yourself otherwise.

[eljay]

Lots of good info here, so perhaps I'll tack on my question here as my objectives are similar to the OP.
I have E91 xDrive non-sport with 86k miles and I will be refreshing my suspension. I would like a factory Sport suspension feel with a drop only to factory Sport specs and retain factory OEM ride.
So, I decided to get Bilstein B4 sport version, but I cannot find options for sport springs. Is there a factory combo that works for E91 xdrive?

[213e90n51]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

A MacPherson strut is a MacPherson strut is a MacPherson strut...doesnt matter if it's on an "old tech" car like the E30, or on this platform...which, at ~15 years is pretty old tech at this point as well.

Here's another article you can just as easily google yourself:
https://whitelineperformance.com/blo...ight-affect-it

My goal isn't to scientifically prove something to you that's already been scientifically proven...if the topic sparked your interest, there's plenty to read about it online. Who knows, maybe you'll read about it from someone that has the required valadility you desire as well.

TireRack does in fact sell quality parts. Just because it's sold on TireRack though doesn't mean it's the best solution for every goal. To put 100% of your trust in their marketing is absurd though, any way you cut it. They also sell H&R extreme lowering springs for this platform...at 2"+ drop it doesn't mean the quality of the springs are junk, but likely not the best option for 99% of those shopping for springs on this platform either.

I've had good luck with Eibach pro-kits on other platforms, but thats because the specs on those pieces, when compared to stock, made sense in those situations. For this platform they do not. The only thing gained is a drop in height...that's it.

Also, the glowing reviews you've read on the B12 kits are from people that are coming from crap factory dampers and have nothing else to compare it to. 99% of the benefits they're seeing are coming from the dampers themselves...not the springs. This is why you'll see just as positive of reviews coming from B6/B8 owners that kept their stock springs. If you look hard enough, you'll also find reviews of peeps that are blowing through compression and slamming into the bumpstops on the B12 setup...this is what's known as deductive reasoning. Already been mentioned in this post, so feel free to re-read it.

Also, don't feel bad about the B6 debacle. Bilstein originally specified non-sport and sport spring owners to use B6 dampers, leaving B8s to be speced for aftermarket lowering springs only. That has since been revised. I too had the problem. On sport springs up front, my B6s lasted only 60k miles. B8s are in there now and it's all good....it is what it is.

At some point you just gotta use some common sense when it comes to this stuff...the info is out there and easy to find. If you're more interested in just following the crowd and joining the sheep, go right ahead, there's nothing wrong with that...just do it already so you no longer have to waste any time convincing yourself otherwise.

So pretty much B6 with non sport oem springs ate a good setup so someone that just wants better suspension feel and handling without the lowered look? Lets say u have a high mileage car thats 150,000 miles and is it even okay if u reuse that spring with a new strut and shock like a b6?

[bluewater328]

Originally Posted by 213e90n51

So pretty much B6 with non sport oem springs ate a good setup so someone that just wants better suspension feel and handling without the lowered look? Lets say u have a high mileage car thats 150,000 miles and is it even okay if u reuse that spring with a new strut and shock like a b6?

The B4/B6 with stock spring is specifically what they are made for.

Originally Posted by 213e90n51

So pretty much B6 with non sport oem springs ate a good setup so someone that just wants better suspension feel and handling without the lowered look? Lets say u have a high mileage car thats 150,000 miles and is it even okay if u reuse that spring with a new strut and shock like a b6?

Yes, absolutely...if you feel the stock springs are worn at that mileage, you can also replace them with non-sport aftermarket springs for cheap.

[328iFitz]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

Yes, absolutely...if you feel the stock springs are worn at that mileage, you can also replace them with non-sport aftermarket springs for cheap.

So Fcobra, how come you didn't point me to this thread when you first replied to mine? Haha although I guess my situation is a bit different to some degree. I DID however do a bit more homework and have read about this "D4/D3" spring combo..? Is that something that would get me by for while on these brand new b4 sports I JUST got? I do plan to go another route but not sure when is all. I'd just like to get my car riding nicely and sitting nice as well (for the time being) money goes out a hell of a lot quicker than I comes in haha. I looked at my stock front springs and they are D5, not sure of the rears but I assume D4's? How much of difference would this D4/D3 combo actually make, if even an option for me?

[W37V]

Well, an update on this.

I actually ended up getting eibach springs and Koni special active dampeners. I am super pleased with this combo. Ride is just awesome. Soft enough, but also car handles really well. Super composed. In regards to lowering and "running" the handling etc, well I do not track the car, but there is a "solution" for this: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...-tie-rod-ends/

I didn't make the tie rod change yet, as I am considering refreshing my control arms and might do everything at once.

[bluewater328]

Originally Posted by W37V

Well, an update on this.

I actually ended up getting eibach springs and Koni special active dampeners. I am super pleased with this combo. Ride is just awesome. Soft enough, but also car handles really well. Super composed. In regards to lowering and "running" the handling etc, well I do not track the car, but there is a "solution" for this: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...-tie-rod-ends/

I didn't make the tie rod change yet, as I am considering refreshing my control arms and might do everything at once.

Keep us posted on how they perform. I had though Special Active wasn't paired right for lowering springs, but maybe Im confused.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by bluewater328

Keep us posted on how they perform. I had though Special Active wasn't paired right for lowering springs, but maybe Im confused.

Koni actually sells the whole kit for their shocks. They list eibach springs with their special active ( 1165 1013 ) which is what made me comfortable with this purchase. I ended up getting everything directly from koni.

https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthA...=114&mk=6&mt=1


My setup: Eiback sway bar front and back, eibach springs, whiteline inserts, m3 control arms, koni special active.

When replacing the shocks, I also swapped out the springs. So all other mods listed were there previously.

First impressions with my setup is following:
Car feels much more docile. It absorbs bumps much better, without lack of confidence. My Bilsteins were harsh and you could feel every imperfection in the road. It got to the point where I was avoiding specific lanes or roads. With Konis, all those imperfections get absorbed and ride is super smooth (once again - this is compared to Bilstein b6).

I believe that the setup that I have now is perfect for DD vehicle. I can't speak of KONI yellows. Maybe they are even better, but this is very nicely balanced setup. Car just feels planted, yet very comfortable. I am able to take a corner 30mph over what I was comfortable before. Highly recommended.

The negatives that I noticed so far:
- slight nose rise and dip when accelerating / braking

[bluewater328]

Originally Posted by W37V

Koni actually sells the whole kit for their shocks. They list eibach springs with their special active ( 1165 1013 ) which is what made me comfortable with this purchase. I ended up getting everything directly from koni.

https://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthA...;mk=6&mt=1


My setup: Eiback sway bar front and back, eibach springs, whiteline inserts, m3 control arms, koni special active.

When replacing the shocks, I also swapped out the springs. So all other mods listed were there previously.

First impressions with my setup is following:
Car feels much more docile. It absorbs bumps much better, without lack of confidence. My Bilsteins were harsh and you could feel every imperfection in the road. It got to the point where I was avoiding specific lanes or roads. With Konis, all those imperfections get absorbed and ride is super smooth (once again - this is compared to Bilstein b6).

I believe that the setup that I have now is perfect for DD vehicle. I can't speak of KONI yellows. Maybe they are even better, but this is very nicely balanced setup. Car just feels planted, yet very comfortable. I am able to take a corner 30mph over what I was comfortable before. Highly recommended.

The negatives that I noticed so far:
- slight nose rise and dip when accelerating / braking

Thanks, sorta like the B12 = B8+Eibach combo. I always thought they yellows were the paired ones. Glad to hear the options are out there.

[rothwem]

So, this thread is really interesting. I say that because I've run B6s on two different BMWs and had two different results. The first was an xDrive E91, and they were fantastic. They "blew off" when I hit a bump, but kept firm handling feeling when turning. Overall, I was really impressed with them. When I got my current E91, which is a RWD/Sport model, I popped a set of B6s on, and disappointingly, they're really fucking harsh. My wife won't ride in the car for any length of time, though my toddler age son things the jostling is hilarious.

My theory is that the lower sport package springs basically make the car sit on the bumps like an aftermarket lowering spring, so that there's basically no travel. In hindsight, I probably should've ordered a set of B8s because my car has sport package springs.

Where this applies to the OP is that the coupes basically have sport package springs, so I wonder if he was sitting on the bumps with his B6s, which are the same P/N between coupe and sedan. This could have contributed to his harsh ride. If he had gotten the B8s, perhaps the ride would've been better, though I don't blame him for switching brands after the bad initial experience. Bilstein could remedy this issue with better product literature, though I can't imagine its easy to keep all the applications straight.

He could've also possibly put in shorter bumpstops in the rear and cut the internal stop in the front, though that's a lot of work and I don't blame the OP for not doing it. The plan for my car is to try putting in non-sport springs, I bought a set and I just need to find time to install them onto my wagon. I think that a lot of the sport package magic comes from the swaybar balance, so I'm hoping that the spring swap won't make it lame to drive. I'm also hoping that it has the positive side effect of raising ride height enough to allow me to not scrape on everyfucking curb I encounter.

[W37V]

Originally Posted by rothwem

My theory is that the lower sport package springs basically make the car sit on the bumps like an aftermarket lowering spring, so that there's basically no travel. In hindsight, I probably should've ordered a set of B8s because my car has sport package springs.

Where this applies to the OP is that the coupes basically have sport package springs, so I wonder if he was sitting on the bumps with his B6s, which are the same P/N between coupe and sedan. This could have contributed to his harsh ride. If he had gotten the B8s, perhaps the ride would've been better, though I don't blame him for switching brands after the bad initial experience. Bilstein could remedy this issue with better product literature, though I can't imagine its easy to keep all the applications straight.

It's a good theory and I thought the same, so I was swapping out shocks I explored that theory to see what is happening. My testing was done on rears, so it might differ than fronts. On the rear shocks my bump stops look brand new (untouched) after almost 40k miles on the shocks. While exploring the Shocks had quite a lot of travel left. How do I know this? If you remove the boot of the shock, you can actually see the bump stops and the shaft. I marked the maximum compression of the shock then raised the wheel to ride height and just eyeballed it. It looked like there was few inches of travel left.