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      12-29-2010, 11:34 AM   #67
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The main advantage of FWD or AWD would be the extra weight on the front from the engine, but given that our cars are distributed 50/50 i wouldn't say that xdrive+all seasons is better than RWD with snows. Actually, I'd rather have the RWD with the snows, because in snow a set of snow tires and driving skills do magic.
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      12-29-2010, 01:04 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
you clearly have your awd colored glasses on as demonstrated by ridiculous response.

I live in snowy climate and I get by just fine with RWD. I also have another vehicle with awd. I'll argue Colorado gets more snow that Mass and that I have more experience driving both rwd and awd in low traction conditions than yourself.
Got it. Your snow is slipprier than mine, and that makes your opinion hold more merit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
BMWs were traditionally rwd because it improves driving dynamics and steering feedback. You're blind or ignorant if you disagree. Every credible car magazine has stated so.
No. BMWs were traditionally RWD because there was no market or comparison for AWD passenger vehicles, 2WD vehicles have less moving parts which means less things to break and warranty, and are cheaper to build.

They started developing AWD in the 80s because of the obvious benefits and demand created by Audi's quattro system. When the market realized the better system, the suppliers began marketing to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
I'll wager I watch a hell of a lot more racing than you. I also watch motocross and road racing. I also auto-cross. Have you ever driven on a closed course?
Again, you watch MORE racing, so your racing opinion is more valid. While I have attended driving schools and driven on closed courses with and without instructors, your driving instructors were better, and my closed course was stupder than yours.

I watch mostly WRC and F1/Indy. Not a fan of watching motorcross. It's more fun to be behind the wheel.

Got any real justification for you opinions aside from your dad is better than my dad?

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Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
Your response to the F1 statement shows just how much you know. F1 represents the pinnacle of road racing in terms of technology and driving dynamics. If awd would help them get around the course more quickly, they would certainly advocate and use awd technology.
Mid engine, RWD is the currently required drive format for F1. AWD is not allowed.

LeMans is exploring allowing AWD based on their new 2011 rules. Should be interesting.

I'm pretty sure the fastest production sedan lap time at Nurburgring is the 2011 STi (AWD) at 7'55". Faster than Porshe Panamera, and the CTS-V Caddy (RWD) who had the record before that. A lesser rally driver (Tommi Makkinen) set the record - on tarmac! imagine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
We clearly have a difference of opinion. I see awd having it's place and I understand the drawbacks of awd in racing format as well as in every day use. That's why I own a second vehicle that has propulsion to all 4 wheels because I know the pros and cons. You appear to be blinded by the need to only justify awd superiority. I'm happy to continue this conversation i'll show you articles from C&D where they stated rwd is superior to awd for driving dyamics. PM me if you're interested.
Seems like most people dont' think AWD is a "drawback" in racing. You've yet to find anything saying that.

I read the rags. for the most part, I think they're simplistic bunk, but if that's your reference point, they pretty much unilaterally prefer AWD, apples to apples.

MotorTrend:

Quote:
No Grip, No Glory: One is the logical choice; one is for speed freaks; and the other is for those who find passion behind the wheel

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz19WlGGxAv
Here's a great one from Road & Track.

Quote:
Well, we were wrong on one front, right on the other. Based on group average times on the dry autocross, the awd G35x proved itself faster, surprising us with its rear-biased manners and lapping nearly a second (0.9 sec.) quicker than the rear-drive G35. In the wet the G35x fared even better, 1.3 sec. quicker than the rear-drive G35.

Wet or dry, the awd G35x was far easier to drive quickly.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co..._drive_page_10
I remember a C&D article about tires talking about AWD. They mentioned that there's no substitute for winter rubber, even with AWD. As I've said here, I personally use winter rubber, and prefer it. If that's the one you're speaking of, I'm familiar with it.

All the obvious science aside proving 4 wheels of constantly adjusted power is better than 2 regardless of condition, all the racing evidence including AWD vehicles getting BANNED for being "unfair," the track times even given the relatively few AWD sports cars compared to simpler, cheaper to build 2WD formats - you just need to use some common sense.

Putting the powers to all wheels, including the steering wheels, is far better than not. The AWD establishes the best of both worlds. Hole shots are 90%+ RWD, cornering is infinitely variabe, and at very high speeds, it's 90%+ RWD.

You want just RWD. I want whatever's best for each circumstance, and each condition - which AWD like XDrive provides. I'll take the fully baked cake any day.

Last edited by AWD Addict; 12-29-2010 at 01:15 PM..
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      12-29-2010, 01:20 PM   #69
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What are the deniers going to say when BMW starts offering front wheel drive?

heads will be exploding all over the internets!
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      12-29-2010, 01:38 PM   #70
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I've driven all, and those who say "RWD /w good winter/snow tires are just as good as AWD in all situations" is not telling the truth, or just denying it.

No driving skills will overcome law of physics.

I love BMW RWD MT and I have snow tires for winter. However, getting enough traction in hills of local streets is pain. Of course, good winter/snow tire is mandatory, regardless of drivetrain configuration.

Problems with RWD sports sedan in hills with snow

- clearance is low, tires are fat (even after downsizing) so the car turns into a snow plow
- with front wheels locked in snow plow, a lot of traction on rear still wouldn't be enough

FWD has advantages not only by having more weight up front on driving wheels, but those wheels also direct the car's movement.

AWD's traction in this situation is night and day, compared to RWD, using same tire. 1000%+ better.
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      12-29-2010, 02:50 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Got it. Your snow is slipprier than mine, and that makes your opinion hold more merit.
Your comment was accusing people of providing dangerous advice of rwd in the snow. Given that I live in a climate that gets considerably more snow than you and I own and drive both a rwd and awd vehicles in the snow on a more regular basis, I would say yes, my opinion regarding rwd handling in snow holds more weight than your occasional BMW XI driving in heavy snow that occurs only when there's a record snow storm in the east coast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
No. BMWs were traditionally RWD because there was no market or comparison for AWD passenger vehicles, 2WD vehicles have less moving parts which means less things to break and warranty, and are cheaper to build.

They started developing AWD in the 80s because of the obvious benefits and demand created by Audi's quattro system. When the market realized the better system, the suppliers began marketing to it.
No. BMWs were traditionally rwd because it provides superior driving dynamics, which is the holy grail of BMW vehicles. They only offer a rudimentary awd system in response to market pressure, not because of the improvement in handling and dynamics that awd offers.

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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Again, you watch MORE racing, so your racing opinion is more valid. While I have attended driving schools and driven on closed courses with and without instructors, your driving instructors were better, and my closed course was stupder than yours. I watch mostly WRC and F1/Indy. Not a fan of watching motorcross. It's more fun to be behind the wheel.

Got any real justification for you opinions aside from your dad is better than my dad?
My comments on watching road racing is in response to your question "Do you watch ANY kind of racing at all?" Or do you even remember asking that you in your previous posts? It has nothing to do with who's dad is better. Seriously, try to remember what questions you've asked.

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Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
I'm pretty sure the fastest production sedan lap time at Nurburgring is the 2011 STi (AWD) at 7'55". Faster than Porshe Panamera, and the CTS-V Caddy (RWD) who had the record before that. A lesser rally driver (Tommi Makkinen) set the record - on tarmac! imagine!

Seems like most people dont' think AWD is a "drawback" in racing. You've yet to find anything saying that.
Not sure what the fastest production Sedan lap time is, but there are several quicker times in production vehicles than 7:55, and the fastest time ever is 6:48 in a Radical SR8. Guess which drive system it has, awd or rwd? Yes, I get it's essentially a kit car and not a production sedan. But the point is they are using rwd when attempting to achieve ultimate performance in a race track environment.

Regarding F1, honest question...if it were legalized, do you really think any of the legit contenders are going to go with awd?

The mag quotes you provided are all nice and I can do a Google search too showing the benefits of rwd in racing, but I don't feel I need to prove my point any further. C&D has repeated said awd takes away some of bmw's driving dynamics due to the added weight while also decreasing fuel economy. I generally hold C&D as the bench mark for all the car mags. They recently did an article on the best handling car in America for under $100k. It was the Porsche boxter. Again, rwd, mid engine layout. Why didn't an awd vehicle beat it or at least make the short list for consideration?

It's been thoroughly documented that rwd is the preferred choice for auto racing and that is why anyone that is serious about it uses rwd. When I say serious, I don't mean a mass produced sedan marketed toward the general public.

I like awd as I stated previously and even own an awd vehicle. In fact, I even posted how nice it was when i had a 335 e92 x drive loaner last winter. But I think you're being a little short sighted by saying C&D and every poster here that recommend rwd with winter tires is providing bad and dangerous advice.
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      12-29-2010, 03:28 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
Your comment was accusing people of providing dangerous advice of rwd in the snow. Given that I live in a climate that gets considerably more snow than you and I own and drive both a rwd and awd vehicles in the snow on a more regular basis, I would say yes, my opinion regarding rwd handling in snow holds more weight than your occasional BMW XI driving in heavy snow that occurs only when there's a record snow storm in the east coast.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
No. BMWs were traditionally rwd because it provides superior driving dynamics, which is the holy grail of BMW vehicles. [B]They only offer a rudimentary awd system in response to market pressure, not because of the improvement in handling and dynamics that awd offers.
Bolded text restates exactly what I said (after you said it wasn't true twice.)

If you think it was performance driven (after you agreed it wasn't. ) Prove it. Show me when BMW decided that they DIDN'T engage in R&D on an AWD system because it was determined inferior.

What a stupid discussion point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
Not sure what the fastest production Sedan lap time is, but there are several quicker times in production vehicles than 7:55, and the fastest time ever is 6:48 in a Radical SR8. Guess which drive system it has, awd or rwd? Yes, I get it's essentially a kit car and not a production sedan. But the point is they are using rwd when attempting to achieve ultimate performance in a race track environment.
I know you're not sure. That's why I told you. As for referencing the Radical, how many supercars are we going to bring into the discussion until it's completely irrelevent (as if it's not already )

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
Regarding F1, honest question...if it were legalized, do you really think any of the legit contenders are going to go with awd?
Porshe, Lambo and Audi no doubt. Their road race history and the success of AWD in road racing is hard to ignore, and they all have great platforms. So yes, I think those are legit contenders, and I think at least 2 of them would use an AWD variant (and it would be GLORIOUS!)

What are you dinosaurs in denial going to do when BMW releases an Xi option M3?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
The mag quotes you provided are all nice and I can do a Google search too showing the benefits of rwd in racing, but I don't feel I need to prove my point any further. C&D has repeated said awd takes away some of bmw's driving dynamics due to the added weight while also decreasing fuel economy. I generally hold C&D as the bench mark for all the car mags. They recently did an article on the best handling car in America for under $100k. It was the Porsche boxter. Again, rwd, mid engine layout. Why didn't an awd vehicle beat it or at least make the short list for consideration?
I'm not a magazine racer. You can have this stupid dicussion with a 9 year old, which is about the level of intelligence required to argue about C&D vs. R&T stats anyways. Buckle up, drive, then comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
It's been thoroughly documented that rwd is the preferred choice for auto racing and that is why anyone that is serious about it uses rwd. When I say serious, I don't mean a mass produced sedan marketed toward the general public.
Show me some documents. They sound interesting. I'll keep showing you the only time they've shared the track in modern racing, they banned the AWD after it swept 7 out of 7 championships.



Also, call Lambo and Bugatti. I'm sure they'd be interested to know that they're screwing up horribly because they missed the memo with those "documents"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk View Post
I like awd as I stated previously and even own an awd vehicle. In fact, I even posted how nice it was when i had a 335 e92 x drive loaner last winter. But I think you're being a little short sighted by saying C&D and every poster here that recommend rwd with winter tires is providing bad and dangerous advice.
It is. Telling someone to get into the worst driveline format available in snowy conditions so you can justify the fact that you get along "fine" with snow tires is irresponsible and dangerous. People are asking for honest advice about driving safely before spending $50,000, and that is bad advice. You're better off reccomending a FWD corrolla.

Last edited by AWD Addict; 12-29-2010 at 03:39 PM..
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      12-29-2010, 03:32 PM   #73
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Hmmm… All-wheel-drive is a rarity in Europe, yet European drivers somehow manage to get around just fine on snowy mountainous roads with RWD cars and snow tires. Perhaps it’s because average Europeans have much better driving skills than the majority of American drivers?
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      12-29-2010, 03:32 PM   #74
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RWD with slicks > AWD with snow tires in snow.

I win.
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      12-29-2010, 03:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
It is. Telling someone to get into the worst driveline format available in snowy conditions so you can justify the fact that you get along "fine" with snow tires is irresponsible and dangerous. People are asking for honest advice about driving safely before spending $50,000, and that is bad advice. You're better off reccomending a FWD corrolla.
You make some good points here and there, and then nullify it with blanket statements like this which are clearly either trollish, or just plain wrong. You do realize they sell BMWs in Germany, right? And you do realize they do have snow and hills and mountains, right? And you do realize a large percentage of those vehicles that BMW sells to the snowy Germans are RWD, right? So is BMW negligent in selling RWD cars to people who live in snowy areas of Europe as well as the snow belt in the US?

Most people will "get along 'fine' with snow tires" in winter. Some people have extenuating circumstances (the exception rather than the rule) which would necessitate AWD (such as ungroomed areas or hilly areas). The rest of the time, they're lugging around more weight, less balance, less efficiency, and more shit that can break, and it costs extra in the first place. There are practical drawbacks to the AWD on the E9X, and for some the trade off is worth it, but for a vast majority of those of us in the snow belt, RWD plus snow tires plus common sense will be just fine.

To insinuate that it is irresponsible and dangerous, while claiming that AS tires in the same conditions are OK because of AWD, well.... It just doesn't make sense. Even when you do introduce snow tires plus AWD into the argument, of course the x-drive will be significantly better in snowy conditions, but how many people here are actually inconvenienced enough by the weather to warrant an offset to the drawbacks of the system?

You make a lot of blanket statements and generalize an awful lot about stuff that is very situational. There is a world outside your own head, you know.
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      12-29-2010, 03:49 PM   #76
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Some of the posters here are
advocating for overkill I'm afraid. What is it with americans and "buying for peak use" anyway. As in, "we get extreme snow a few times a year where I live, so I had better buy an AWD vehicle even though the rest of the time it is added weight, friction losses, complexity, and less driving fun?"

That is exactly the reasoning that got so many people into SUVs for so long - "I go camping once a year, and what if the levees break and it floods, or if the apocalypse comes next week? I'd better buy an
SUV!"

As for going up hills, weight transfer actually adds more to the rears, and takes it away from the fronts, when pointing up a hill. In other words, steep hills actually favor rwd, not fwd. I drove a Miata - modded with minimal ground clearance even, and... Gasp! ... No LSD - for many years in bona fide Canadian winter conditions in the national capital region. Never had a problem and would often be able to pull away quicker (I.e., with more traction) than most anyone else. RWD stickshift winter tires 50/50 weight distribution is a great snow machine for 99% of conditions you are likely to encounter. And that is in a car with no ABS, no TC, no DSC.

To the OP, I suggest you purchase good winter tires, downsized on 17's, and all will be good. You would need winter tires even with AWD, as others here have correctly pointed out.
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      12-29-2010, 04:12 PM   #77
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I'm not sure you guys can have it both ways. On the one hand you say AWD is merely a safety feature for these cars. On the other hand you say AWD is superfluous for these cars. Which is it?
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      12-29-2010, 04:16 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheStigsTwin View Post
I'm not sure you guys can have it both ways. On the one hand you say AWD is merely a safety feature for these cars. On the other hand you say AWD is superfluous for these cars. Which is it?
I wouldn't call it either really. It's a utility whose value depends on the individual's use of the car.
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      12-29-2010, 04:29 PM   #79
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I'm not going to take the time to respond to each of your comments as it's clear you're trolling.

I will say it's also clear that you don't read any of the car mags, which only compounds how weak your arguments are.

I referenced the radical because it appears you're some what thick to understand that rwd ultimately is the choice for performance dedicated road racing. It doesn't matter if the Radical is a super car or not. The point is the Radical has achieved the quickest time at the 'ring ever on record AND IT USES RWD. PERIOD. Don't argue this because you're grasping for weak argument points. When an AWD vehicle (super car or not) sets the lap record at the 'Ring, let's revisit that argument.

F1 racing will never use AWD, nor will any other dedicated track going race car, be it Viper ACR, Vette, Lotus, or Ferrari. The fact is rwd is better for performance dedicated road racing. You can deny it all you want and it will only show the rest of the people here how little you know or understand. That radical will also smoke your AWD lambos and bugattis.

AWD has it's place, but it's not in ultimate road racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
Got it.



Bolded text restates exactly what I said (after you said it wasn't true twice.)

If you think it was performance driven (after you agreed it wasn't. ) Prove it. Show me when BMW decided that they DIDN'T engage in R&D on an AWD system because it was determined inferior.

What a stupid discussion point.



I know you're not sure. That's why I told you. As for referencing the Radical, how many supercars are we going to bring into the discussion until it's completely irrelevent (as if it's not already )



Porshe, Lambo and Audi no doubt. Their road race history and the success of AWD in road racing is hard to ignore, and they all have great platforms. So yes, I think those are legit contenders, and I think at least 2 of them would use an AWD variant (and it would be GLORIOUS!)

What are you dinosaurs in denial going to do when BMW releases an Xi option M3?



I'm not a magazine racer. You can have this stupid dicussion with a 9 year old, which is about the level of intelligence required to argue about C&D vs. R&T stats anyways. Buckle up, drive, then comment.



Show me some documents. They sound interesting. I'll keep showing you the only time they've shared the track in modern racing, they banned the AWD after it swept 7 out of 7 championships.



Also, call Lambo and Bugatti. I'm sure they'd be interested to know that they're screwing up horribly because they missed the memo with those "documents"



It is. Telling someone to get into the worst driveline format available in snowy conditions so you can justify the fact that you get along "fine" with snow tires is irresponsible and dangerous. People are asking for honest advice about driving safely before spending $50,000, and that is bad advice. You're better off reccomending a FWD corrolla.
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      12-29-2010, 11:02 PM   #80
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I haven't read the whole thread but obviously some feathers have been ruffled. Mag results, lap times, etc can only give a rough idea of what's up. If you really want to compare, you need the same car with both drivetrains (911, 335i/xi, etc) driven on the same track by the same driver multiple times and average the results. Often the awd setup is marginally faster, but the rwd set-up is often preferred for "feel". Bluntly stating rwd is always superior is pointless. The awd Nissan GTR often posts better lap times than Porsches, Ferraris, and Corvettes. So what?

Regarding awd vs rwd in snow. The argument happens every winter. Everyone believes they are right. Big surprise. For me, I have an AWD XC70 with Nokian WRG2's that will absolutely handle snow better than any rwd car with any tire I've ever driven. My '06 330i with Dunlop wintersport 3D's "gets by" on plowed roads, but can't handle more than 3 inches of the pow. Forget about taking it to ski country during a storm. No problem in the Volvo.
YMMV.
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      12-30-2010, 12:23 AM   #81
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Does anyone have experience driving a RWD car in the midwest (chicago area specifically) with snow tires?

I'm trying to decide if a RWD 335 will work for me or if i should buy a 335xi for the few days of the year that the roads are really bad.
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      12-30-2010, 07:07 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eml92 View Post
Does anyone have experience driving a RWD car in the midwest (chicago area specifically) with snow tires?

I'm trying to decide if a RWD 335 will work for me or if i should buy a 335xi for the few days of the year that the roads are really bad.
You obviously have not read through this thread...

Cliff Notes on driving in snowy conditions:

- RWD w/ Summer Tires will be sacrificing your cajones especially if you have no common sense driving skills.
- RWD w/ All Season is treacherous if you have no driving skills.
- RWD w/ Snow Tires will work well but you have to have good driving skills and understand the dynamics of the car in different driving situations.
- AWD w/ All Season Tires is just as good if not better than RWD w/ Snow Tires as long as you have some type of driving skills
- AWD w/ Snow Tires is the best option out there especially for those who have almost no driving skills. Hell, even this pairing may be treacherous for those bad drivers out there.
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      12-30-2010, 07:19 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWD Addict View Post
It is. Telling someone to get into the worst driveline format available in snowy conditions so you can justify the fact that you get along "fine" with snow tires is irresponsible and dangerous. People are asking for honest advice about driving safely before spending $50,000, and that is bad advice. You're better off reccomending a FWD corrolla.
I have to agree with AWD Addict.

RWD+snows is not all about driving skill. Like I have mentioned and others have mentioned, there are simply uphill situations where a RWD+snow setup is not capable of going up the hill, no matter how talentedly you can put your foot on the accelerator.

Many people think that if they can get up a snowy hill with 8" of fresh fall, they're unstoppable. Sorry, snow is easy to drive in. Snow gives you plenty of traction. Try that same hill two hours later, after traffic has packed it down to an icy sheet, and the plows haven't come through yet. Heavy snow is not the true test of winter driving ability, it's packed glazed snow and ice.

RWD with snow tires may work for some - but it will not work well for all. If you live in flat terrain or where the roads are cleared pretty well, you may in fact get along just fine. If the conditions are challenging, your driving skills will be challenged because of the limitations of the equipment. If this helps to build your sense of machismo as a superior driver to everyone else, then I'm glad it helps you feel good about yourself.

Car enthusiasts brag about getting the best possible tires for maximal grip in the intended conditions. Why would anyone hesitate to endorse a mechanical system whose intent is to achieve the same goal? Sure, I understand that everyone makes the best with what they've purchased. But if someone is trying to research the topic to decide which route to go, putting RWD+snows at the top of the heap as completely capable is doing them a disservice.

AWD Addict is right about one more thing - FWD is absolutely a fantastic driveline for winter capability. I have a 1986 Shelby Omni GLHS that was my winter driver back in the early 90s. The car had NO weight in the back. That thing was absolutely unstoppable with snow tires, because 75% of the weight of the car came right down on those drive wheels.

- Chris
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      12-30-2010, 07:23 AM   #84
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RWD+snows is not all about driving skill. Like I have mentioned and others have mentioned, there are simply uphill situations where a RWD+snow setup is not capable of going up the hill, no matter how talentedly you can put your foot on the accelerator.
I agree on that one. If I was living in an area with hills, it would be a different story. This is my 2nd RWD BMW. I owned AWD Subaru and Audi Quattro before; I don't miss them. Truth is that RWD with snow tires and TC/ESP is doing a great job. AWD is most of the time just dead weight that penalizes the car.
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      12-30-2010, 08:02 AM   #85
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Wow, I never intended to start such a huge debate. Since I already had the RWD car, I was looking for support that spending $1,000 on snow tires (with wheels) would get me through the few winter days as opposed to having to trade in the car (and take a beating on it). The tires are in, I will let you know how they work during the next snow storm. Of course now that I bought them, we probably won't have another snow storm here for a couple years.
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      12-30-2010, 08:13 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by eml92 View Post
Does anyone have experience driving a RWD car in the midwest (chicago area specifically) with snow tires?

I'm trying to decide if a RWD 335 will work for me or if i should buy a 335xi for the few days of the year that the roads are really bad.
Yes this is my third winter of daily-driving my 335i in Chicago. Hell, back in my college years, I drove a cab as my part time job in Ann Arbor too. All RWD drivetrains and I've never had a problem as long as I had snow tires on the car.

Except for the mandatory rush hour snowstorms we get here, the main roads and freeways are well-groomed, and we don't have many hills at all. So, RWD plus snows is much more than adequate except if you live somewhere that doesn't care for the streets. The city didn't get to my street until well after the two snows this year, and my car was fine through it. The only time I have had any issue at all was trying to park in my space with more accumulation than I have ground clearance, but I don't blame the equipment, I blame myself. All it really took was backing up and coming at it with a bit more momentum and a straight steering wheel and it worked fine. It didn't get stuck though. Go take a look in the Great Lakes subforum and ask for advice there. Plenty of people with RWD 335i who don't regret it one bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispitude View Post
....Sorry, snow is easy to drive in. Snow gives you plenty of traction. Try that same hill two hours later, after traffic has packed it down to an icy sheet, and the plows haven't come through yet. Heavy snow is not the true test of winter driving ability, it's packed glazed snow and ice.

RWD with snow tires may work for some - but it will not work well for all. If you live in flat terrain or where the roads are cleared pretty well, you may in fact get along just fine.

...putting RWD+snows at the top of the heap as completely capable is doing them a disservice....
I agree with the fresh snow part; that's why I always ask about the state of grooming of the roadways where the person is. Packed snow is a bitch and might as well be ice in many cases.

I think most of us agree on the fact that there isn't one blanket answer. It depends on the situation and circumstances of the owner in question. I wouldn't for a second put RWD+snows at the top of the heap, but I would say it needs to be evaluated whether the drawbacks of the AWD setup are able to be offset by the benefits reaped by the owner.

This really shouldn't have turned into a "what is the most superior driveline ever in the entire world" thread. It's sad, because people actually have legitimate questions about this stuff, and if they're researching through the threads to get answers, they run into all kinds of self-righteous tangential bullshit.

Bottom line: figure out what your winter circumstances are for driving your car. If you don't know, go to the regional subforum. After you know all of this, you should then be able to make a decision of what driveline/tire configuration is best for you.
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      12-30-2010, 09:27 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by TheStigsTwin View Post
I'm not sure you guys can have it both ways. On the one hand you say AWD is merely a safety feature for these cars. On the other hand you say AWD is superfluous for these cars. Which is it?
Audi has arguably a superior AWD package then BMW, comparing the two is like comparing a true 4WD off-roader to the FWD-biased AWD systems on many of the cute-utes. Look at the AWD in the STi and the EVO, manually adjustable center diff allows a more performance based F/R torque split. A 90/10 F/R AWD car is going to drive like crap, it is one of the reasons the MazdaSpeed6 and the A3 AWD layouts are inferior. They are FWD biased, and slow to respond and shift torque to where it is needed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by virtualbong View Post
You obviously have not read through this thread...

Cliff Notes on driving in snowy conditions:

- RWD w/ Summer Tires will be sacrificing your cajones especially if you have no common sense driving skills.
- RWD w/ All Season is treacherous if you have no driving skills.
- RWD w/ Snow Tires will work well but you have to have good driving skills and understand the dynamics of the car in different driving situations.
- AWD w/ All Season Tires is just as good if not better than RWD w/ Snow Tires as long as you have some type of driving skills
- AWD w/ Snow Tires is the best option out there especially for those who have almost no driving skills. Hell, even this pairing may be treacherous for those bad drivers out there.
Close, but not quite right...all below assume equal driving skill and a snowy climate where you *need* to go out in most anything short of a state of emergency.

In order of performance (high to low):

AWD + dedicated snows (As a RWD fan, I do not believe there is any way to logically say AWD +snows is not the best setup for 99.9% of snow/ice situations. The only potential downside is the added weight, though I don't know how much difference that makes in the real world given the numerous variables)
RWD + dedicated snows
AWD + all-season tires
RWD + all-season tires


Anything with summer only rubber is just asking for Darwin Award nomination papers.

Last edited by bbbradley; 12-30-2010 at 10:41 AM..
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      12-30-2010, 10:31 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
You make some good points here and there, and then nullify it with blanket statements like this which are clearly either trollish, or just plain wrong. You do realize they sell BMWs in Germany, right? And you do realize they do have snow and hills and mountains, right? And you do realize a large percentage of those vehicles that BMW sells to the snowy Germans are RWD, right? So is BMW negligent in selling RWD cars to people who live in snowy areas of Europe as well as the snow belt in the US?
No. BMW isn't negligent because people select the product they want. Please stop with ridiculous statements.

I think Europeans drive dramatically less than Americans, take more time off particularly in inclement weather, and are less likely to need AWD even in snowy climates.

I think Europeans tend to drive older cars and trade up a lot less than Americans.

I also think XDrive is relatively new to the marketplace, and will take longer to penetrate in Europe. Even in the US, people are adopting AWD slowly. The fact is as more options become available, more people are buying them, particularly in the colder climates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
Most people will "get along 'fine' with snow tires" in winter. Some people have extenuating circumstances (the exception rather than the rule) which would necessitate AWD (such as ungroomed areas or hilly areas). The rest of the time, they're lugging around more weight, less balance, less efficiency, and more shit that can break, and it costs extra in the first place. There are practical drawbacks to the AWD on the E9X, and for some the trade off is worth it, but for a vast majority of those of us in the snow belt, RWD plus snow tires plus common sense will be just fine.
There it is again. It's like clockwork. RWD with snows is "fine." "You'll get along "fine." "Fine" is a piece of shit standard for people driving the "ultimate driving machine."

I want an ultimate driving experience, not a "Fine driving experience." I don't want to just "get along okay" I think 90% of the people that bother to sign up and log into an enthusist community regularly to discuss these things are the same way. Go buy a f*cking Toyota for a the "Fine Driving Machine" I can get along "fine" in snow boots or on a bicycle too. People in my office actually commute to work in snowstorms on a bike "just fine."

Give me a break. Fine. $50,000 to get along "fine."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ragingclue View Post
To insinuate that it is irresponsible and dangerous, while claiming that AS tires in the same conditions are OK because of AWD, well.... It just doesn't make sense. Even when you do introduce snow tires plus AWD into the argument, of course the x-drive will be significantly better in snowy conditions, but how many people here are actually inconvenienced enough by the weather to warrant an offset to the drawbacks of the system?
I'm not insinuating. Don't you understand the paradox of saying snow tires on the worst driveline system for inclement weather is okay, but AWD with all seasons is not? How can you accept a poor standard over a moderate one? 4 wheels with okay rubber is eons better than 2 wheels with good rubber. It's not speculation. Get out in the snow and try it for a week objectively. It's not even close. I drove 8 years in AWD with all seasons on two different cars. During that time, I also drove a 540 with snows, and a VW with all seasons. I'd rank both AWD vehicles ahead of every other one, with the 540 DEAD LAST - even after the VW (FWD) with all seasons. Not even close. Most of the time, the 2WD cars couldn't even get out of the driveway without snow shovels, salt, rocking, etc.

Someone asking advice and being told to drive in snow in the worst driveline format available is getting bad advice. The advisor is irresponsible. It's not the same. In fact, they're better off in FWD than RWD with apples to apples rubber. If you deny that, you should stop advising people in the automotive theater.

As for how inconvenient it is for a person, that's too broad a brush to paint this discussion. Are there people in Long Island that are "fine" without AWD, sure. It depends on snow / ice / road conditions in their area, hills, how much they drive, if their a casual commuter or driving enthusiast, etc. I'm not taking that bait.

Last edited by AWD Addict; 12-30-2010 at 10:37 AM..
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