E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > Help with Adding MS-8 to L7 system. Adding a sub amp, etc.



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-28-2013, 01:46 PM   #1
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Help with Adding MS-8 to L7 system. Adding a sub amp, etc.

Hello. I have searched about the topic but I can only find bits and pieces of information and I am having a hard time putting it together as I am not an expert of the matter.

I currently have a e90 with L7 and I am planning to integrate JBL MS-8, SWS-8xi 2ohms, 2-ch amp for SWS. I have ordered Technic's harness for L7 as well as some spacers for the sub.

What I am trying to achieve is use the MS-8 for the OEM L7 while adding an amp just for the SWS-8xi in 2ohms. The goal is to slightly improve the OEM L7 sound with MS-8 while adding a kick via SWS-8. I guess it is similar to kaigoss69's config #1b:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394375

As for my background, I am somewhat adept doing mechanical work on the car, it is just that I have not worked extensively on the electrical parts of the car.. The most I did was to install a navigation HU on my wife's Tiguan for electrical stuff.

So my questions are:

1. What other miscellaneous parts do I need? (ie. wires, harness, etc) Please pretend I am a complete newbie and kindly direct me to the types (gauges? power wires? fuse box?) of wires needed and etc. I am trying to do a quality install and if adding fuse breakers etc to the setup is needed for a long run, I would like to do it, please help.

2. Which 2-ch. amp is most cost efficient while providing the quality and the best bang of for the buck to drive the SWS-8xi's 2ohms, given my setup with MS-8? Recommendations? Most widely used and popular?

3. How do I wire these things? Specifically, the tapping the power (I am scared ) from the battery? Do I have to add fuse boxes, power connectors? How to wire the MS-8, 2-ch amp, and SWS-8 with Technic's harness?

4. If there are any guides or a link that I may have missed with pictures, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you guys for the help!
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 01:51 PM   #2
mkPOTO
Mr. Nice Says Hello
mkPOTO's Avatar
634
Rep
16,662
Posts

Drives: BMW M3 | X5 xdrive 35i MSport
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (25)

Garage List
Take a look at this, should have plenty of information for you:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641323
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 01:57 PM   #3
bmw325i
Major General
223
Rep
5,119
Posts

Drives: 2006 BMW 325i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United States

iTrader: (8)

It's fairly simple you might want to read up on this a little more, mainly the stickies. You can either keep the stock amp connected and use the speaker level inputs on the ms8, or you can remove the stock amp, recode to hifi, and use the RCA inputs on the ms8. If you decide to recode to hifi I have a harness that will work for you.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=903918

To power the amp you should get a 4 or 8 gauge wiring kit, youll have alot of extra power wire but thats never a bad thing. You'll also need the connectors for the underseats subs and the power connectors for the battery. I think you can get both of these from technic, or if you search around you can find the part numbers and get them from the dealer.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 02:48 PM   #4
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
It's fairly simple you might want to read up on this a little more, mainly the stickies. You can either keep the stock amp connected and use the speaker level inputs on the ms8, or you can remove the stock amp, recode to hifi, and use the RCA inputs on the ms8. If you decide to recode to hifi I have a harness that will work for you.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=903918

To power the amp you should get a 4 or 8 gauge wiring kit, youll have alot of extra power wire but thats never a bad thing. You'll also need the connectors for the underseats subs and the power connectors for the battery. I think you can get both of these from technic, or if you search around you can find the part numbers and get them from the dealer.
Can you kindly point me to the information regarding installation with keeping the stock L7 amp? I would not like to recode anything as of now. Thank you!
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #5
ctuna
Lieutenant General
1904
Rep
13,088
Posts

Drives: 325xi 06 wagon MT
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

iTrader: (0)

It doesn't make sense to add a ms-8 without recode

It doesn't make sense to add a ms-8 without recode and removing the stock l7 amp. If you want to keep the l7 amp I would just add an amp an upgraded speakers on top of it . Though I don't like the concept of using an amp to drive another amp.
Yes it is technicaly possible to do what your describing but its not what I would call a clean solution.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 03:56 PM   #6
bmw325i
Major General
223
Rep
5,119
Posts

Drives: 2006 BMW 325i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United States

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoonywise View Post
Can you kindly point me to the information regarding installation with keeping the stock L7 amp? I would not like to recode anything as of now. Thank you!
I agree with ctuna that keeping the stock amp is not the best way of doing it. I've tried both ways and the sound quality is better if you recode. The problem is the signal is processed by the stock amp and then has to be cut down, processed, and reamplified by the ms8.

If you decide to do it that way, you basically have to cut Technics harness in half except for the power and ground wires. The wires coming out of the amp get wired to the ms8's speaker level inputs. The wires on the on the other half of the connector get wired to the aftermarket amp or the ms8's speaker level outputs depending on what you are using to power your speakers.

If you recode you can cut the end off that plugs into the stock amp from technics harness, since you'll get the signal from the head unit using an RCA cable. You can also unpin the power and ground wires as you won't need them.

Another more expensive option is a da2
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 04:20 PM   #7
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
I agree with ctuna that keeping the stock amp is not the best way of doing it. I've tried both ways and the sound quality is better if you recode. The problem is the signal is processed by the stock amp and then has to be cut down, processed, and reamplified by the ms8.

If you decide to do it that way, you basically have to cut Technics harness in half except for the power and ground wires. The wires coming out of the amp get wired to the ms8's speaker level inputs. The wires on the on the other half of the connector get wired to the aftermarket amp or the ms8's speaker level outputs depending on what you are using to power your speakers.

If you recode you can cut the end off that plugs into the stock amp from technics harness, since you'll get the signal from the head unit using an RCA cable. You can also unpin the power and ground wires as you won't need them.

Another more expensive option is a da2
Thank you for your inputs. Where can I find this guide to recode the HU? Can I do it myself? I have done some coding myself through INPA for car lights, Alpina TCU and etc. I am thinking that this is a whole different process?
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 05:19 PM   #8
bmw325i
Major General
223
Rep
5,119
Posts

Drives: 2006 BMW 325i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United States

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoonywise View Post
Thank you for your inputs. Where can I find this guide to recode the HU? Can I do it myself? I have done some coding myself through INPA for car lights, Alpina TCU and etc. I am thinking that this is a whole different process?
Search the coding section or other coding sites.

You can do it yourself if you've already done some coding. Use ncsexpert. Delete $677 from the VO add $676. Do this for both cas and frm or nfrm. Then recode 2urad, and your done.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 05:39 PM   #9
djkevinnn
Lieutenant
United_States
75
Rep
407
Posts

Drives: 2008 335i FBO
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Queens, NY

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
Search the coding section or other coding sites.

You can do it yourself if you've already done some coding. Use ncsexpert. Delete $677 from the VO add $676. Do this for both cas and frm or nfrm. Then recode 2urad, and your done.
^^ This. Unless you have a radio that only communicates over MOST. Usually if you have the new gongs it will need to be done by the OPS system.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 05:41 PM   #10
ctuna
Lieutenant General
1904
Rep
13,088
Posts

Drives: 325xi 06 wagon MT
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca

iTrader: (0)

FYI note that coding a idrive and pro radio

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=stereo

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=stereo

note that coding a idrive and pro radio are not the same .
When you do the pro radio you are only dealing with the rad file .
There are about three different files for the idrive as described
in the articles above.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 06:36 PM   #11
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Guys, the L7 amp is actually a very good signal source for the MS-8. First, the D/A conversion happens inside the L7 amp in the trunk, so there is no chance of induced noise between the head unit and the amp. Second, the signal coming from the amp is extremely strong with a low noise floor, which again means in the short run between the L7 amp and the MS-8, there is very little chance of induced noise. I used this set-up in the beginning and there was little to no hiss even with the HU volume cranked all the way. Some people have to use line drivers between their signal source and the processor, because the signal is too weak, which of course is not necessary in this case. The MS-8 was built to work with this type of signal. This is the easiest and cheapest way to integrate the MS-8 in this system. Disadvantage is turn-on/off pops caused by L7 amp. It can be annoying. You can eliminate one of the pops by adjusting the MS-8 delay, don't remember which one.

The alternative is recoding to HiFi to work with the balanced output of the head unit. In this case you will have to run RCA cables from the head unit to the trunk which can cause some noise to be picked up by the wiring on the long run to the trunk. Consider the costs of coding 2x, once now and once again before you sell the car, and the extra work to run the signal wire(s). If you have to pay for the coding and the work to run the RCA, it's easily $300-$400.

Alternative #2 is to get a DA-2 from Mobridge to get rid of the L7 amp altogether, while still being able to do the D/A conversion in the trunk. The unit seems expensive (about $600), but consider the fact that you can resell it later on and the worst you can lose is probably $250. I think this is the better and more elegant option compared to recoding to HiFi.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 06:49 PM   #12
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Guys, the L7 amp is actually a very good signal source for the MS-8. First, the D/A conversion happens inside the L7 amp in the trunk, so there is no chance of induced noise between the head unit and the amp. Second, the signal coming from the amp is extremely strong with a low noise floor, which again means in the short run between the L7 amp and the MS-8, there is very little chance of induced noise. Some people have to use line drivers between their signal source and the processor, because the signal is too weak, which of course is not necessary in this case. The MS-8 was built to work with this type of signal. This is the easiest and cheapest way to integrate the MS-8 in this system. Disadvantage is turn-on/off pops caused by L7 amp. It can be annoying. You can eliminate one of the pops by adjusting the MS-8 delay, don't remember which one.
Kaigoss69, thank you for confirming that I can keep the stock L7 amp in conjunction with the MS-8.

Originally, I was planning to use technic's harness to just add a pair of SWS-8xi's powered with Zapco 200.2 to my L7. I just happened to score on a MS-8 very cheap and contemplating whether to use the MS-8 or not (would like to if possible).

If I were to go through the recoding the HU, running RCA cables from HU, etc.. I would rather resell the MS-8 and just go with my original plan. However, if I can use the MS-8 along with L7 amp and achieve even the minimal performance gain, I would like to keep it.

Kaigoss69, can you provide some information on how to connect the wires for this setup? Which 2-ch amp do you recommend just to drive the underseat SWS-8xi's? I am trying to be cost effective while doing a quality install.

Thank you for your input.
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 07:00 PM   #13
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
1. What other miscellaneous parts do I need? (ie. wires, harness, etc) Please pretend I am a complete newbie and kindly direct me to the types (gauges? power wires? fuse box?) of wires needed and etc. I am trying to do a quality install and if adding fuse breakers etc to the setup is needed for a long run, I would like to do it, please help.
- Technic L7 harness
- 16-gauge crimp connectors
- In-line fuse holder with 40 or 50 amp fuse
- 8-gauge positive power wire, about 4-5 feet
- Ring terminal for connection to positive battery post
or
- proprietary plug that connects to distribution block on top of battery (Technic supplies this along with correct length wire)
- 8-gauge ground wire, about 4-5 feet
- Ring terminal to connect to OEM battery grounding point
- 16-gauge speaker wire (spool of 25 feet should be more than enough)

Quote:
2. Which 2-ch. amp is most cost efficient while providing the quality and the best bang of for the buck to drive the SWS-8xi's 2ohms, given my setup with MS-8? Recommendations? Most widely used and popular?
Rockford Fosgate 300-2 or 300-1 is pretty popular. It's not audiophile grade but then again neither are the speakers you're driving with it...

I would go with the 2-channel version because you will get some midbass separation which helps with imaging.

Quote:
3. How do I wire these things? Specifically, the tapping the power (I am scared ) from the battery? Do I have to add fuse boxes, power connectors? How to wire the MS-8, 2-ch amp, and SWS-8 with Technic's harness?

4. If there are any guides or a link that I may have missed with pictures, it would be greatly appreciated.
There are some examples already on the forum. Search function is your friend.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 07:11 PM   #14
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
- Technic L7 harness
- 16-gauge crimp connectors
- In-line fuse holder with 40 or 50 amp fuse
- 8-gauge positive power wire, about 4-5 feet
- Ring terminal for connection to positive battery post
or
- proprietary plug that connects to distribution block on top of battery (Technic supplies this along with correct length wire)
- 8-gauge ground wire, about 4-5 feet
- Ring terminal to connect to OEM battery grounding point
- 16-gauge speaker wire (spool of 25 feet should be more than enough)



Rockford Fosgate 300-2 or 300-1 is pretty popular. It's not audiophile grade but then again neither are the speakers you're driving with it...

I would go with the 2-channel version because you will get some midbass separation which helps with imaging.



There are some examples already on the forum. Search function is your friend.
Thank you for the explanation! That clears it up for me!
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 07:33 PM   #15
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Don't criticize my awesome MS Paint skills!!!
Attached Images
 
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 07:40 PM   #16
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoonywise View Post
Thank you for the explanation! That clears it up for me!
Sorry, forgot about MS-8 power wiring. Here you can use 10 gauge. About the same lengths as before, depending on where you put the unit. 6 feet each is safe. Ring terminals for battery/chassis ground connections, forked spade connectors for MS-8 connection. Distribution/fuse block can be used but not necessary. You also need some single thread thin wire (18-20 gauge) to use for turn-on signal between MS-8 and aftermarket amp.

Edit: when I say distribution/fuse block not necessary I mean the you still need to fuse the wire near the battery, you will just have two separate wire runs. Instead, you could use a single 8 gauge run to near where the amp and ms8 will be located, and then use a distribution block to wire each device separately.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 07:50 PM   #17
OC40
Lieutenant Colonel
51
Rep
1,831
Posts

Drives: 335i MSport + MPS/MPPK
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2013 MINI S  [0.00]
2013 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Don't criticize my awesome MS Paint skills!!!
This is absolutely FANTASTIC!
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2013, 08:21 PM   #18
bmw325i
Major General
223
Rep
5,119
Posts

Drives: 2006 BMW 325i
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: United States

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Guys, the L7 amp is actually a very good signal source for the MS-8. First, the D/A conversion happens inside the L7 amp in the trunk, so there is no chance of induced noise between the head unit and the amp. Second, the signal coming from the amp is extremely strong with a low noise floor, which again means in the short run between the L7 amp and the MS-8, there is very little chance of induced noise. I used this set-up in the beginning and there was little to no hiss even with the HU volume cranked all the way. Some people have to use line drivers between their signal source and the processor, because the signal is too weak, which of course is not necessary in this case. The MS-8 was built to work with this type of signal. This is the easiest and cheapest way to integrate the MS-8 in this system. Disadvantage is turn-on/off pops caused by L7 amp. It can be annoying. You can eliminate one of the pops by adjusting the MS-8 delay, don't remember which one.

The alternative is recoding to HiFi to work with the balanced output of the head unit. In this case you will have to run RCA cables from the head unit to the trunk which can cause some noise to be picked up by the wiring on the long run to the trunk. Consider the costs of coding 2x, once now and once again before you sell the car, and the extra work to run the signal wire(s). If you have to pay for the coding and the work to run the RCA, it's easily $300-$400.

Alternative #2 is to get a DA-2 from Mobridge to get rid of the L7 amp altogether, while still being able to do the D/A conversion in the trunk. The unit seems expensive (about $600), but consider the fact that you can resell it later on and the worst you can lose is probably $250. I think this is the better and more elegant option compared to recoding to HiFi.
Yes it will work well enough, but it's not ideal. The logic 7 amp is just an extra load on the electrical system in this case. I'm assuming the da2 would give the best results but it is much more expensive than coding. It isn't very likely that you'll pick up noise using balanced signals and some good quality twisted rca's.
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2013, 09:02 AM   #19
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Don't criticize my awesome MS Paint skills!!!
This picture should be stickied or saved somewhere for the car audio newbs!

Appreciate 0
      10-29-2013, 09:28 AM   #20
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
Yes it will work well enough, but it's not ideal. The logic 7 amp is just an extra load on the electrical system in this case. I'm assuming the da2 would give the best results but it is much more expensive than coding. It isn't very likely that you'll pick up noise using balanced signals and some good quality twisted rca's.
No it's not ideal, nothing is in car audio. As is often the case, there are bottlenecks in the system that limit the performance. In this case the bottleneck is NOT the signal source, it is the speakers. You can clean up the signal as much as you want, but it just won't sound any better.

As I pointed out, the long-term costs of the DA2 are probably less than the Hifi recode process. If one were to shoot for best possible signal set-up from the OEM HU, then the DA2 is the key. But it only makes sense I think if the speakers will be upgraded at the same time, or if one could not live with the MS-8 pops.
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2013, 09:38 AM   #21
hoonywise
Second Lieutenant
hoonywise's Avatar
United_States
52
Rep
271
Posts

Drives: 2016 340i MPPSK
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Buena Park

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2016 BMW 340i  [10.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
- Technic L7 harness
proprietary plug that connects to distribution block on top of battery (Technic supplies this along with correct length wire)
I am about to purchase the proprietary power connector/block from technic, and I was wondering how long should the cable be? 4-5ft. as the others?

Thanks for your input.
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2013, 09:57 AM   #22
kaigoss69
Brigadier General
kaigoss69's Avatar
United_States
300
Rep
3,969
Posts

Drives: '08 335i
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: JAX

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoonywise View Post
I am about to purchase the proprietary power connector/block from technic, and I was wondering how long should the cable be? 4-5ft. as the others?

Thanks for your input.
The wire should be no longer than 18". You connect the other end to the inline fuse holder. Then for the main wire run to the amp, you need 4-5 feet. Buy 6 ft to be safe. You can buy the wires by the foot and fuse holders on Parts Express I believe, or maybe Technic has it too?!
__________________
Mobridge DA2 > JBL MS-8 > ARC XDi 600/4 > JBL Gti 408 Mids & Vifa OT19 Tweeters; PG Ti2 1600.5 > Morel HCW-10 & IDMax 15
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:03 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST