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      09-26-2019, 10:22 PM   #1
Deftronix
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Compressed air injection into exhaust manifold?

Anyone try to do any type of compressed air injection on our platform? Think it would be interesting to take advantage of the exhaust manifold port that is originally used for the egr piping if you're deleted..

Checkout how Volvo is doing this -


I will be going to full air suspension within a couple months and the plan is to put a second regulator off the 5 gallon tank, add an exhaust check valve and solenoid down the line that is activated via torqbyte controller secondary.

Think it would work well with our sequentials? Any idea of what good pressures would work well on an M57 with hybrids done?

What do you guys think?
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      09-27-2019, 07:32 AM   #2
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Very interesting concept.
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      09-27-2019, 10:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip451 View Post
Very interesting concept.
Concept of what? Injecting air into the exhaust stream? For what purpose, or function? What do you believe would be accomplished with this? What problem does it solve?

...more to the OP, just not clear on the "concept."
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      09-27-2019, 10:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip451 View Post
Very interesting concept.
Koenigsegg is also doing something similar in the Jesko, so there's definitely some sound science behind it.

Will be interesting to experiment with since I will have air on tap to use for the suspension anyway. This would work even better for the person doing the comp 335d big single turbo conversion here. Wish HSP Diesel was willing to mill additional exhaust manifolds so more of us would have an option to go one big turbo and try a solution like this to address the lag.

Trying to track down the part#'s for their manifold check valve & solenoid that are used since they will be designed to better handle exhaust temps. If anyone can find them, please post them up!
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      09-27-2019, 10:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
Concept of what? Injecting air into the exhaust stream? For what purpose, or function? What do you believe would be accomplished with this? What problem does it solve?

...more to the OP, just not clear on the "concept."
Did you watch the video? It is to get the turbine side going without having to wait for the engine to build exhaust pressure.

Here is the patent for a more technical read -
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20140026538
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      09-27-2019, 12:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deftronix View Post
Anyone try to do any type of compressed air injection on our platform? Think it would be interesting to take advantage of the exhaust manifold port that is originally used for the egr piping if you're deleted..

Checkout how Volvo is doing this -


I will be going to full air suspension within a couple months and the plan is to put a second regulator off the 5 gallon tank, add an exhaust check valve and solenoid down the line that is activated via torqbyte controller secondary.

Think it would work well with our sequentials? Any idea of what good pressures would work well on an M57 with hybrids done?

What do you guys think?
This sounds like a super cool concept. So from what they showed in the video it looks like you have a return line from the air intake, goes through the compressor and in the tank then you would install the supply line on the hot side of the egr cooler to spool the exhaust side of the turbo for less lag.

Sounds like it would work well in a single turbo application. Something like a progressive controller like torque byte might work well. I wonder if you could use some type of progressive pressure regulator that would make acceleration more linear than just one single pressure which might spike boost pressure in a bad way. Another thing is a BOV would be a good idea to control boost spikes.

Or maybe twin big turbos to make some serious power with minimal lag.

I think setting it up with sequentials would make for an extremely difficult install plus I feel the benefit would been hardly seen since I feel the turbo spool plenty quick just with the way they function.
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      09-27-2019, 01:23 PM   #7
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You would need with a tuner to dynamically integrate that gizmo with AFR management, and any sensors affected downstream. Diesels normally run towards the lean side compared to other IC engines anyway.
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      09-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RL18 View Post
This sounds like a super cool concept. So from what they showed in the video it looks like you have a return line from the air intake, goes through the compressor and in the tank then you would install the supply line on the hot side of the egr cooler to spool the exhaust side of the turbo for less lag.

Sounds like it would work well in a single turbo application. Something like a progressive controller like torque byte might work well. I wonder if you could use some type of progressive pressure regulator that would make acceleration more linear than just one single pressure which might spike boost pressure in a bad way. Another thing is a BOV would be a good idea to control boost spikes.

Or maybe twin big turbos to make some serious power with minimal lag.

I think setting it up with sequentials would make for an extremely difficult install plus I feel the benefit would been hardly seen since I feel the turbo spool plenty quick just with the way they function.
Don't think there is any need to have it progressive or complicated unless something throws off o2 sensors downstream to cause limp mode due to detecting too"lean" but wouldn't really be since that oxygen never actually went through the engine. Plan to put in a balanced regulator for this specifically so it always gets the same pressure (2 x desired max boost from research so far) and will just set off the solenoid at a certain RPM just like the meth/h2o side on the torqbyte . Back to progressive/static I see it like comparing the slower oncoming torque of a combustion engine to the instant torque of an electric motor, I'd think it would be beneficial to have the instant full pressure in this case unless it causes problems with the bearings of the particular turbo.

Maybe there will be someway in future tunes to allow for this "lean" state to be modified if a problem does come up. Like you mention, the hybrid sequentials are very quick already but I know the guys dragging their 335d's this would at least tempt their interest to experiment.

Intake on the pump seems to be just taken from the airbox so its filtered and not sucking crap. Not necessarily on the charged side, there's no need for the pump to get intake manifold pressure. Check out this very general overview but proves that volvo designed this system for use in a sequential turbo setup -
https://assets.volvocars.com/gr/~/me...e.pdf?la=el-gr

Last edited by Deftronix; 09-27-2019 at 02:02 PM..
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      09-27-2019, 04:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deftronix View Post
Don't think there is any need to have it progressive or complicated unless something throws off o2 sensors downstream to cause limp mode due to detecting too"lean" but wouldn't really be since that oxygen never actually went through the engine.
Maybe not "that" oxygen. I thought you were talking about spooling a turbo with it?
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      09-27-2019, 04:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
Maybe not "that" oxygen. I thought you were talking about spooling a turbo with it?
The concept is pretty clear in the info above. I put lean in quotes and typed that before I even saw your reply, so wasnt trying to imply anything and it wasnt meant as a reply to your post. Wish I had a chance to submit before you had a chance so it wouldnt have been confused. Put it in quotes because it wouldnt be a true lean condition just seeing the additional oxygen dumped in after the combustion creating a false positive.
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      09-27-2019, 05:58 PM   #11
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That's a concept in a different system. It won't port to an existing BMW design without significant coding, and any possible benefit (if it did work as intended) is purely theoretical - kinda like the leaf blower turbo idea.

But it might be entertaining to watch it attempted! Get some train horns if you're looking for something doable with all that extra air.
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      09-27-2019, 06:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
That's a concept in a different system. It won't port to an existing BMW design without significant coding, and any possible benefit (if it did work as intended) is purely theoretical - kinda like the leaf blower turbo idea.

But it might be entertaining to watch it attempted! Get some train horns if you're looking for something doable with all that extra air.
Koenigsegg and Volvo both doing similar is a little passed purely theoretical. Where would the 335d tunes be today if people didnt try new things? Kindly move on if you dont have anything further to contribute other than equating it to a leaf blower mod and mentioning train horns, lol. Get bent dude!

Of course there could be possible coding issues. That's why it needs to be tried and if it has potential (which we already know it does based on other manufactures spending the money to put it into production cars) then it would be nice for the tuners to offer it in a special tune once it's figured out.
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      09-27-2019, 06:56 PM   #13
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It makes a lot more sense to inject compressed air in the intake side.
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      09-27-2019, 09:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicklockard View Post
It makes a lot more sense to inject compressed air in the intake side.
I was considering that as well but a turbo is designed to use the turbine (hot side) not the compressor to rotate the whole assembly most efficiently. That's why they are different blade designs. If you injected intake side it would just vent to atmosphere since that would be the path of least resistance. There has to be good reason the manufactures and the patent above chose to use the exhaust side.

Last edited by Deftronix; 09-28-2019 at 12:44 AM..
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      09-28-2019, 12:16 PM   #15
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This would be useful for people like myself above a mile in altitude.
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      09-28-2019, 11:31 PM   #16
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So I had some some research on a different way to prespool the turbos. Injecting meth and n2o into the exhaust manifold. Basically creates a jet turbine effect to spool very quickly.
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      09-29-2019, 10:52 AM   #17
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Why not push the compressed air into the intake instead? For the work done to get X flow/psi of that air into intake it takes more on the exhaust side to get the same intake charge as the exhaust side has losses through the turbo. The extra air on intake with fuel burning will create much more volume/flow than the air alone on the exhaust side too.



I think it's more for emissions in their case.
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      09-29-2019, 07:01 PM   #18
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Turbo pre-spooler (shown in green).
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      09-29-2019, 07:44 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnitro View Post
Why not push the compressed air into the intake instead? For the work done to get X flow/psi of that air into intake it takes more on the exhaust side to get the same intake charge as the exhaust side has losses through the turbo. The extra air on intake with fuel burning will create much more volume/flow than the air alone on the exhaust side too.

I think it's more for emissions in their case.
It is specifically used in both cases above as a legitimate way to reduce turbo lag (although enough to be beneficial is debatable). koenigsegg is injecting 290psi for example. The guys taking their 335d's to the drag strip and trying to get the best times possible couldnt hurt to at least research a little further into this.

I mentioned the reasoning for why exhaust manifold and not the intake due to venting to atmosphere if you dont have something like the asv (auto shutoff valve) temporarily cut-off the filter housing to create one path so most air injected doesnt just go to atmosphere. But no need to make it so complex hardware & coding wise as it would actually work better in the exhaust manifold (even better in the turbine housing on single turbo setup as shown in patent above) anyway because it would be hitting the blades that were designed to spin the compressor most effectively causing the fastest spool up.

The point is to reduce turbo lag not necessarily force more air into the engine because it is already getting what it wants unless the intake is inadequately spec'd. Colder air (more dense) hitting the turbine side will actually make it spin faster than any exhaust gas as well, just figuring out the injection pressure would be the task and hoping it doesn't trigger a lean false positive limp mode.
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      09-29-2019, 08:22 PM   #20
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If it's getting enough air into the engine, why would you need more spooling?
The idea of using nitrous is a total waste... It would help more in the intake
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      09-29-2019, 08:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnitro View Post
If it's getting enough air into the engine, why would you need more spooling?
The idea of using nitrous is a total waste... It would help more in the intake
The DDE would adjust for the reduced spooltime and getting cool air to the turbine side (hot side) without having to wait for exhaust gases to build would be fastest method to get the turbine+compressor going. Never mentioned anything about nitrous and neither does anything I have linked, that was another member.

If someone wants to actually read & research the info I attached and comment, it would be nice to start a productive discussion to get this accomplished.
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      09-30-2019, 06:08 AM   #22
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Yes I saw the video and the patent. I get the idea but if you want instantaneous response you could also inject less of that air into the intake to get it to your desired boost...Because you are making more power, your exhaust flow will be much higher which will spool the turbo faster.
My point is that to spool the turbo through exhaust to get that same boost will take a lot more flow than if you fed the engine that air directly. Cold air increases density by cooling the exhaust gases and reduces flow of thosr gases. Turbos are a form of heat energy extraction not just pressure.


But on gas engines it's different because they can have issues running lean too quickly (detonation) so in that case direct intake injection would be hard to manage manage and exhaust side would be easier.
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