[shadowcoder]

Originally Posted by shadowcoder

I have the following problem in case you know the solution to it.

I purchased the kit and took it to the dealer for installation. My car is a
2006 E90 330i.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an option for the performance
sports brakes under ISTA in the retrofit selections.

Are they required to flash the car to the latest and then it will pop up?

How are they meant to address this?

Any help appreciated because right now we don't know how they are meant
to code the new brakes on the car with ISTA

I wonder if they will be able to code the brakes via ISTA if they change the VO first?

Could it be that after the VO change, ISTA will offer the coding option?

Anyone knows or can verify?

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by shadowcoder

I have the following problem in case you know the solution to it.

I purchased the kit and took it to the dealer for installation. My car is a
2006 E90 330i.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an option for the performance
sports brakes under ISTA in the retrofit selections.

Are they required to flash the car to the latest and then it will pop up?

How are they meant to address this?

Any help appreciated because right now we don't know how they are meant
to code the new brakes on the car with ISTA

Not really sure. If the performance brakes were not an option for your model year it most likely will never show up in ISTA, however, If you can find a coder in your area, you can have them code the VO to SPBR and default code the car. They may have to trick the computer to think it is a newer model year (change the date in the VO, add SPBR, and then code DSC and FRM). As people have to do for older cars to install the newer radio with built in Bluetooth and USB.

[shadowcoder]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Not really sure. If the performance brakes were not an option for your model year it most likely will never show up in ISTA, however, If you can find a coder in your area, you can have them code the VO to SPBR and default code the car. They may have to trick the computer to think it is a newer model year (change the date in the VO, add SPBR, and then code DSC and FRM). As people have to do for older cars to install the newer radio with built in Bluetooth and USB.

The brakes ARE an option for my model/year as an official BMW performance
accessory.

Dealer opened a PuMA to which BMW responded, according to the dealer, that
no coding is needed

The official documentation and installation instructions from BMW that come
with the brakes clearly states that coding is needed for the brakes using SSS.

My guess is BMW dropped the ball on this and my dealer is not familiar on how
to code the brakes by changing the VO.

I imagine this is something that the person responding to the PuMA would
already know how to do and instruct/guide the dealer

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by shadowcoder

The brakes ARE an option for my model/year as an official BMW performance
accessory.

Dealer opened a PuMA to which BMW responded, according to the dealer, that
no coding is needed

The official documentation and installation instructions from BMW that come
with the brakes clearly states that coding is needed for the brakes using SSS.

My guess is BMW dropped the ball on this and my dealer is not familiar on how
to code the brakes by changing the VO.

I imagine this is something that the person responding to the PuMA would
already know how to do and instruct/guide the dealer

I would find a local coder and have them do it. I was driving the wife's car today and can say, the brakes are amazing after coding. 150% worth it.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I would find a local coder and have them do it. I was driving the wife's car today and can say, the brakes are amazing after coding. 150% worth it.

Placebo no?

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by feuer

Placebo no?

Definatly not. The brakes before were half of what my 335i brakes are now I am a bit jealous of the stopping power. It really is like a night and day difference.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Definatly not. The brakes before were half of what my 335i brakes are now I am a bit jealous of the stopping power. It really is like a night and day difference.

What pads are you running on these cars?
Different compound will yield different results.
Coding alone? Probably not so much.

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by feuer

What pads are you running on these cars?
Different compound will yield different results.
Coding alone? Probably not so much.

Both have Meyle rotors are vaico pads on the front. Both have stock lines, both have a recent fluid flush.

[boro92]

Can anyone confirm what the coding actually does? A lot of the factory brake coding has nothing to do with performance driving and with track use, it is actually desirable to turn them all off

[sprp85]

I believe it changes front / rear bias to be more balanced.

[bNks334]

After digging through the DSC module to code off a lot of the electronic nannies myself, I'd say coding for a bbk is a must.

Everything the car is programmed to do is based off of formulas that will all be effected by altering your brake bias (more piston area up front than rear), braking coefficient (larger rotors and pads), and fluid dynamics (larger calipers and more piston volume wil change how the master cylinder and brake booster operate and result in changes to pedal travel/feel). Think about it... a stock car is programmed for commuting to work, not driving on a track. To take advantage of a BBK properly you'd need to code for the change.

Most importantly would be the e-diff. Even if you code out all the other electronic nannies the E-diff shouldn't be disabled unless you move to a mechanical diff. I don't see how the car could possibly behave the same if you alter the brakes and the car continues to try to push the same brake pressure via e-diff function in the DSC module.

Yes, the difference might be so subtle a majority of people will never "feel" the difference between coding for a BBK and not coding for it, but there certainly is a meaningful difference.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by bNks334

After digging through the DSC module to code off a lot of the electronic nannies myself, I'd say coding for a bbk is a must.

What tools did you use to do the coding? Can you write short DIY guide?

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by feuer

What tools did you use to do the coding? Can you write short DIY guide?

Read through this thread to get an idea of what needs to be coded and what the modules do: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216642

As for the tools I used, here is a complete virtual machine that contains every BMW tool you'll ever need (careful with what Datens you use though as DME roms change over time!): http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1220039

Or, a simple setup can be used on a fresh windows install (all you really need is ncsexpert to code): http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ols+windows+10

A generic k-line/d-can obdII to usb cable can be found on Ebay/Amazon for $10.

This video is what I used to learn the basics of how to do the coding:

It really is insanely simple once you get the hang of how to use ncsexpert. NCSdummy will translate all the modules for you and it shows you some of the formulas used by the various functions...

[feuer]

Originally Posted by bNks334

Read through this thread to get an idea of what needs to be coded and what the modules do: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1216642

I participated in similar discussion in the Tracking section. That coding help on track by allowing drivers to have more control vs having computers interfering and has nothing to due with BMW performance brakes and even less with BBK. That coding will slightly differ from year to year even on cars with physically identical brakes. Unless David discovered something else this coding has nothing to do with BBK as will alter the brake system in a same way regardless of what size the brakes actually are. F-series have different coding required when running BBK since rotors are larger thus brake torque being diferent and ABS thrash holds. Same on other makes like VW/Audi. Coding above simply doesn't offer these changes. Only turn off the nannies as you said.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by feuer

I participated in similar discussion in the Tracking section. That coding help on track by allowing drivers to have more control vs having computers interfering and has nothing to due with BMW performance brakes and even less with BBK. That coding will slightly differ from year to year even on cars with physically identical brakes. Unless David discovered something else this coding has nothing to do with BBK as will alter the brake system in a same way regardless of what size the brakes actually are. F-series have different coding required when running BBK since rotors are larger thus brake torque being diferent and ABS thrash holds. Same on other makes like VW/Audi. Coding above simply doesn't offer these changes. Only turn off the nannies as you said.

I think you misunderstood me. It’s a lot easier to follow all of this if you have some kind of background in computer programming.

Let’s start from the beginning again. If you drive around in full "TIMYOYO" mode all DSC functions such as, dynamic stability control, ACS, and traction control are disabled. All the other assists provided by the mk60 module (the DSC unit) such as, rain brake assist, soft stop assist, brake ready assist, brake fade compensation, brake overheating, e-diff, differential braking, and the many others, are NOT disabled when you go full TIMYOYO. You can read the basics on the MK60 module, which is used in the E82/E90 chassis, here: http://www.bmwtech.ru/pdf/e46/ST034/...20Internet.pdf

Using sensors, the MK60 module actively (when its DSC functions are enabled) PREDICTS excessive slip angle and will apply the brakes to prevent it from happening. How could this system possible function as intended if all the sudden the brakes are generating significantly more torque than as programmed stock? The DSC module would need to be completely re-written with the new expected torque values of the new brake system in order to accurately apply pressure to the wheels via its various functions like DSC.

I am speculating that the software BMW provides with its BBK updates the DSC module. Almost everything the MK60 module does results in the application of the brakes. I could be DEAD WRONG about this assumption though. No one knows for sure WHAT modules the BBK software update touches. We do know for sure that a software update DOES exist. The OP has had it flashed by his dealer. Therefore, it obviously changes SOMETHING.

Think about it logically. Let’s use brake fade compensation as an example. Brake fade compensation increases the brake pressure based how hot it predicts your brake pad/or fluid? is getting. More heat = more fade = more pedal effort. BMW actually programmed a function that says ok so more heat = more fade = more pedal effort THERFORE boost brake pressure by x to maintain the same exact pedal feel for the driver!! Awesome in theory, but pretty bad for knowing when your brakes have faded on track :/

Doesn’t it logically stand to reason that since BMW offers a BBK, which changes every variable associated with brake fade, they also re-programed brake fade compensation to accommodate for the BBK and applied it via a unique software update?

Here is a comparison I did of the 128/135i/135is MK60 trace files: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Unfortunately, you can’t draw any conclusions via that comparison. Why? Because, the 135is could be running a different DSC software revision (zusb number) meaning that the value of wert_01 on the 135is might be different than the value of wert_01 on the 135i. NCSDummy translates some of the hex for you so you can compare the actual data, but I never went that far... What I am speculating is that the BMW software update would do just that, change the data of the various "Wert" values to recalculate for the BBK... These are values you can manually change yourself using NCSDummy if you know what to change them to

I wrote up an entire THEORY BASED/UNSUPPORTED response and added it to the "Speculation on BMW BBK" tab of the worksheet I linked above. I wont post it in its entirety because it's 2 pages long and talks about things way above what most people have bothered to learn about coding their cars.

Personally, my take on all of this is that it's a wasted effort to figure out what the BMW software is really changing. You're better served by disabling everything and learning how to drive the car without "assists." Which is why I posted to code everything OFF in post #35 and linked to how to do it lol

[feuer]

Originally Posted by bNks334

I think you misunderstood me. It’s a lot easier to follow all of this if you have some kind of background in computer programming. Let’s start from the beginning again.

Yes, let start from the begining. OP (david from germany) did this coding himself. Shadowcoder went to dealer and was told such software doesn't exist nor is required. Now, in my mind, coding in existing software to enable or disable already provided features withinf the software is different than flashing completely different software.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by feuer

Yes, let start from the begining. OP (david from germany) did this coding himself. Shadowcoder went to dealer and was told such software doesn't exist nor is required. Now, in my mind, coding in existing software to enable or disable already provided features withinf the software is different than flashing completely different software.

Yes, sorry. OP did the coding himself (obviously the retrofit software does indeed exist). Also, Shadow stated "I am upgrading the brakes of my E90 330i with the BMW performance brakes and the dealer said coding is needed."

It is well known at this point that if BMW offers a performance brake upgrade (for instance, a 128i has an upgrade option to BMW performance brakes) BMW also provides a corresponding software upgrade... all for the reasons I speculated above...

There is a definitive an advantage to altering to DME's programming to retrofit larger brakes. Again, it's a waste of time in my opinion. Just code all the DSC functions off lol... Or, deal with the DSC/E-diff applying more brake then it needs to and the brake pad wear sensor never calculating properly (both are things most people probably never notice)

Originally Posted by feuer

Now, in my mind, coding in existing software to enable or disable already provided features within the software is different than flashing completely different software.

I think you're confusing two separate things. I was recommending coding OFF the DSC functions (for track use) so you don't ahve to bother with flashing the BMW software.

There are multiple ways you can go about retrofitting a BMW performance brake kit:

1) you go to the dealer and pay $3k for a BBK and software flash (that's a joke, right?)
2) you can buy the bmw brake kit for $1100 and use WINKFP to automatically pull the correct software (zusb number) from the DATEN based on your VIN NUMBER. First you'd have to MANUALLY change your VO (Vehicle order) to show your car was built with the BBK (The dealers software does all this for them automatically).
3) You can use something like NCSDummy to MANUALLY change all the data to match the values of a car that has been properly retrofitted with the BMW software already (use the coding steps I outlined in post 35).

Have you ever changed a battery from lead acid to AGM? 1) have dealer do it with their in house software and pay a shit ton 2) modify your $VO with WINKFP and then let WINKFP flash the correct software automatically 3) manually go into the CAS module yourself with ncsexpert/ncsdummy and change the values by hand. Your software revision number never changes, but the way the charging program works surely does!

When I retrofitted my AGM battery I manually went into CAS and changed the values to a 80AH AGM battery. I then reset the battery using INPA. I could have used WINKFP, Or I Could have used Tool32, Or I could have even used ISTA-D.

The method I chose mean my $VO does NOT show that I have an AGM battery. Therefore, if the dealer ever updates my car their in house software will read my $VO and revert me back to lead acid settings (stock battery was 110ah lead acid and that's what my VO still shows)!

What people in this thread are trying to figure out is the same thing people figured out with the free PPK flash... Let's use the 128i as an example. Why pay BMW to install their BBK when you can just get a second hand set of 135i brake that are the SAME THING? Just install the 135i calipers and flash the BMW software for free using the BMWtools! Trouble is no one has taken the time to figure out what the BMW software Zusb number is since everyone just says "oh well it doesn't do anything it's not needed."

As for aftermarket big brake kits, YES! there would be a benefit to modifying the values even further, by editing the hex by hand, to maintain proper DSC functionality (my hypothesis). however, this would take a massive effort to trace all the changes the BMW software makes and then recalculate appropriate values. It is better to just DISABLE EVERYTHING (for performance driving only!), which again uses the SAME coding process as step 3) above (which I outlined how to do in post 35).

[shadowcoder]

Just an update regarding my adventure.

The performance brakes need coding - that's certain.

The original answer I got from the dealer that coding doesn't exist for my car
nor is needed, unfortunately was incorrect. And this wasn't the dealer's fault
but BMW's. Dealer showed me the PuMA response. Only when I pushed back
and told them the car is not leaving the shop unless they code the brakes they
installed, they went back to BMW and eventually the right answer came back.

Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that people who may be answering the
PuMA, have no clue.

VO had to be changed on my car. The dealer (and from what I understood any
dealer for that matter) won't touch the car's VO unless BMW instructs them to.

That's what happened in my case. After dealer was unable to find a way to
program the performance brakes due to my vehicle's year, they opened a PuMA
and BMW provided them with a VO for the car.

They then coded the brakes.

Could they have used NCS Expert to do it? Yes. Is it simple? Yes. Would they do
it without BMW asking them to do so? No (based on my experience).

One little known but very important fact. Whenever the DSC is reprogrammed or
changed (in this case the former), the steering angle sensor must be reset and
recalibrated.

Either this happens automatically when the brakes are coded, or it needs to
happen manually. In my case it didn't happen at all (automatically or manually)
so as soon as I drove the car out of the dealer and got home, it lit up like a Christmas
tree complaining about DSC, DBC and FTM malfunctions.

Took it back to the dealer, they reset and recalibrated the steering angle sensor
per my request which fixed the problem and hopefully that concludes and puts a
happy ending to my upgrade.

Hope this helps.

[bNks334]

Originally Posted by shadowcoder

Just an update regarding my adventure.

The performance brakes need coding - that's certain.

The original answer I got from the dealer that coding doesn't exist for my car
nor is needed, unfortunately was incorrect. And this wasn't the dealer's fault
but BMW's. Dealer showed me the PuMA response. Only when I pushed back
and told them the car is not leaving the shop unless they code the brakes they
installed, they went back to BMW and eventually the right answer came back.

Doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling that people who may be answering the
PuMA, have no clue.

VO had to be changed on my car. The dealer (and from what I understood any
dealer for that matter) won't touch the car's VO unless BMW instructs them to.

That's what happened in my case. After dealer was unable to find a way to
program the performance brakes due to my vehicle's year, they opened a PuMA
and BMW provided them with a VO for the car.

They then coded the brakes.

Could they have used NCS Expert to do it? Yes. Is it simple? Yes. Would they do
it without BMW asking them to do so? No (based on my experience).

One little known but very important fact. Whenever the DSC is reprogrammed or
changed (in this case the former), the steering angle sensor must be reset and
recalibrated.

Either this happens automatically when the brakes are coded, or it needs to
happen manually. In my case it didn't happen at all (automatically or manually)
so as soon as I drove the car out of the dealer and got home, it lit up like a Christmas
tree complaining about DSC, DBC and FTM malfunctions.

Took it back to the dealer, they reset and recalibrated the steering angle sensor
per my request which fixed the problem and hopefully that concludes and puts a
happy ending to my upgrade.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all the info! pretty much aligned with what was being assumed.

You have to remember the techs at dealers don't know much. They just hook your car up to ISTA-D to diagnose issues and then ISTA-P to program things. ISTA reads out your VIN and DME codes and puts together a corrective action plan for the tech including tips and install guides. It's pretty awesome except like in this case where I assume ISTA didn't have a procedure for upgrading your car to the performance brake kit... Or, maybe the $vo was supposed to be updated before they ran ISTA? perhaps the dealer just ASSUMED it was a hardware only change and never bothered running ISTA?

You definitely need to realign the DSC whenever you update its software. car will throw the "trifecta" codes/lights if you don't and you wont have ABS or ANY DSC functionality. If ISTA had the appropriate upgrade procedure for the BBK on your car it would've recommended to the tech to run the DSC alignment procedure after finishing the coding. I ended up needing to use ISTA to perform the realignment myself because the usual methods people posted using tool32 or ncsexpert or INPA didn't work.

Without the $VO being modified, your DSC module would always be upgraded to the latest stock software when the dealer updates your car. If ISTA sees the BBK or like the PPK in your VO it only updates the DSC/DME modules if a new BBK/PPK software is released (zusb number).

It's all pretty simple actually once you learn the 20 different tools and the 20 different ways of coding things LOL

[sono0312]

Originally Posted by david in germany

You can. You will need to add SPBR to the VO and then code the DSC and FRM modules if I remember correctly.

Presently I am waiting on a fresh set of front rotors and then I will be upgrading my 118I to performance brakes (using 135I calipers and rotors on the front and 328I rotors and calipers on the back). Once I get the rotors in and install I will take a few pics of the coding process.

i would like to know if i just need to add '+SPBR' into vo attribute to have an ideal performance after replacing normal brake with bp brake.

my car is e90 325i sedan, and the car has bp brake integrated for both front and rear. the rear was not normal option but the size of roter (center ring) was modified to be fitted.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by sono0312

my car is e90 325i sedan, and the car has bp brake integrated for both front and rear. the rear was not normal option but the size of roter (center ring) was modified to be fitted.

Do you have photos?

[MPI_Jack]

Originally Posted by feuer

Do you have photos?

The Performance brakes for the E9x chassis are the 135i 6 piston calipers with the slotted/dimpled 338mm rotors. It's not the same as we have done with our cars with the F series performance brakes.