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      06-12-2015, 03:29 PM   #1
old grey steve
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M57 & Timing Chain

Heard of these having issues of course but they don't crop up like the the N47 spec issues yet the end result is of course the same.

This as stated is the first one we've seen on site and is from a 2008 vehicle ND30 spec

The story was very simple one minute driving along next minute loss of power all dash lights on and well that was it. Therefore once off the transporter the car was pushed in to the workshop. Diagnostic bought up a few issues of course so next step was to go through the basics by eye:

So we checked the usual suspects for engines cutting out (turbo's and alike)and yep all seemed well. So next step was to whip the rocker cover off and go looking.

First thing that came up for a look was the chain? We were asking why it had suddenly stopped. Could it be. Well sadly it was striaghtaway simply by lifting the chain the penny dropped. Checked looking down from te top of the head and visually on the outside we could see at least 2 valves had been distroyed.

So we were into engine transplant mode: Diesel engines in case anyone looking are damn hard to find and are expensive too. Supply/Demand sees to that. But within a week engine was supplied car back on the road.

Never thought I'd see one of these with a chain failure.

Once stripped your chain



close up the damaged link



looking down in to the head. look at the impact damage



you can see above how its been split in half with the impact like a nut being cracked with a sledgehammer



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      06-12-2015, 04:24 PM   #2
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Any idea of the exact mode of failure? Tensioner, guides or chain induced?

Is it just the broken link that is damaged, or does the chain look as if it was stretching?

I guess it will be hard to identify, as a chain that in not controlled by correct tension will thrash about and can cause guide damage/failure and self destruct the chain itself.

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      06-12-2015, 04:25 PM   #3
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      06-12-2015, 08:16 PM   #4
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Suppose the 1st failure isn't the end of the world (maybe for car owner)

But you say its the first you have seen which is pretty good going for the older engines.

Just unlucky
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      06-13-2015, 12:42 AM   #5
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Re failure a good point, the picture as you can all see paints a thousand words but the tensioner seems to of seen better days normally you'd have an issue re the tensioner going slack, noise oil loss etc but where the tensioners sited it didn't look too bad there may have been an issue re its partial failure thing is the we received the car damage done so can't 100% say!

But all these symptoms are out there the safest thing anyone of you can do with an engine that is documented as having a timing chain issue whether petrol or diesel is to prevent the issue escalating and as a precaution get it checked out:changed as seen fit hence why I posted this up
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      06-13-2015, 04:07 AM   #6
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Has there been any of these issues with the newer N57 from the lci 330d?

Cheers

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      06-13-2015, 04:41 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badgerbrock72 View Post
Has there been any of these issues with the newer N57 from the lci 330d?

Cheers

Garry
Yes it is more common i believe as it uses the same setup as the troublesome n47 (4cyl 2l d) Not as common but could be due to production numbers of 4cyl vs 6 cyl
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      06-13-2015, 06:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase 320d View Post
Yes it is more common i believe as it uses the same setup as the troublesome n47 (4cyl 2l d) Not as common but could be due to production numbers of 4cyl vs 6 cyl
There does seem to be more issues with the 4-cylinder engine. There is the suggestion that it is at least partly due to the torque pulses of the engine, similar to the way a DMF will also take a bigger hammering with a high torque, low cylinder count. 6-cylinder engines help smooth out torque with three pulses per revolution, rather than just two.

Having the timing gear at the back of the crank, along with the flywheel/torque converter, I do wonder if the vibrations, torque pulses, even the possible change in harmonics, are putting extra stress on the timing gear and chains.

It is suggested shorter oil service intervals can help, as some failures do indicate wear is involved. The other factor could be how an engine is driven. Like the DMF issue, some drivers of a given model can drive over 100k miles without a DMF failure, whereas another driver gets through DMF's in very short order.

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      06-13-2015, 07:19 AM   #9
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Considering how many M57's there are out there (E39, E46, E60, E90, X5, etc), if this is the first one you've seen, that shows how reliable these are and it's not something that is widely reported on the internet (unlike the N series engines) so this is nothing to worry about IMO, just bad luck.
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      06-15-2015, 03:51 AM   #10
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What was the mileage on this car when it went?
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      06-16-2015, 11:57 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iyrix View Post
What was the mileage on this car when it went?
Steve
You forgot to answer this question. Whats service history on that car?
Any other factors which can contribute to this snap?

Delayed services history
Aftermarket parts?
or anything else?

PS: One of my friend has 2011 X5 and timing chain on that snapped. Luckily he has full bmw service history and warranty. Timing chain has been changed bill was about £6K.
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      06-16-2015, 02:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Steve
You forgot to answer this question. Whats service history on that car?
Any other factors which can contribute to this snap?

Delayed services history
Aftermarket parts?
or anything else?

PS: One of my friend has 2011 X5 and timing chain on that snapped. Luckily he has full bmw service history and warranty. Timing chain has been changed bill was about £6K.
Car had covered just over 85k it had history, some BMW some non BMW. But nothing visible to say yep that crested the issue even the tensioner area though damp was 'acceptable' if tgats the right thing to say.

Aftermarket parts is a good question, engine wise I'd say oil filter maybe(I never saw the filter to be honest but the engine and other stuff is still with us)and air filter aside its a possibility, though if the air/oil filters are block exempt then they stand good, but these items if they are to put forward as a cause of failure(which main dealers BMW UK may aim at)can make/break a claim. Full BMWSH does when your looking at BMW for assistance with something as catastrophic as a chain letting go, go a long way.
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      06-16-2015, 02:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve View Post
Car had covered just over 85k it had history, some BMW some non BMW. But nothing visible to say yep that crested the issue even the tensioner area though damp was 'acceptable' if tgats the right thing to say.

Aftermarket parts is a good question, engine wise I'd say oil filter maybe(I never saw the filter to be honest but the engine and other stuff is still with us)and air filter aside its a possibility, though if the air/oil filters are block exempt then they stand good, but these items if they are to put forward as a cause of failure(which main dealers BMW UK may aim at)can make/break a claim. Full BMWSH does when your looking at BMW for assistance with something as catastrophic as a chain letting go, go a long way.
We all thought that 6 cylinder diesels were bullet proof.
We were wrong as within few months we have heard 4 6 cylinder engines (3 E9x and one E7x).

Really Sad. I never tried Merc or Audi and I wonder if timing chain failures are common on those brands as well?
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      06-16-2015, 02:53 PM   #14
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just seen another thread on here about n47 timing chain recall?
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      06-16-2015, 02:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
We all thought that 6 cylinder diesels were bullet proof.
We were wrong as within few months we have heard 4 6 cylinder engines (3 E9x and one E7x).

Really Sad. I never tried Merc or Audi and I wonder if timing chain failures are common on those brands as well?
Mercs are nigh on bomb proof however I've got a 320 CDI in the workshop where a turbo seal let go the cars sadly lunched it's turbo and in the process wiped the engine out. On the Mercs they ensure a couple of good housekeeping rules from the outset.

1/ service intervals are in terms of mileage /time are more old school they count down in miles/days it's on the dashboard and it'll be there in your eye line every time you drive. If you chose to ignore the info on the dash then it's at your own risk as a driver. I like that as you know where you stand.

2/ Chains on petrol Mercs are an issue they don't seem to break, they stretch, the drive gear teeth get knurled but the beauty here is compared with the BMW equivalent they are more tolerant of the problem, downside on petrol Mercs is the cost of repair as they are financially a lot more involved than the equivalent BMW.

Diesel wise they just seem to be simply more durable though I know parts cost on the Merc Diesels are more money and more time to put right than BMW's should you face a problem again.

But yer right Sam, the 4 cylinder are well documented, the 6 cylinders are coming out the woodwork rather stealthily.
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      06-16-2015, 04:45 PM   #16
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i doubt if a car has full bmw history and 80k and if the other has no service history and 80k means the full history one is more secure from chain snapping...when its time to go its time to go and i really doubt theres anything that we can do to prevent it like starting to service every 6 months or always take it to bmw for work now
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      06-16-2015, 04:53 PM   #17
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Steve does this affect 335D? How many labour hours to replace the timing chain if done as a preventative measure?
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      06-16-2015, 04:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Steve does this affect 335D? How many labour hours to replace the timing chain if done as a preventative measure?
unless there is a new chain BMW have made to prevent this from happening why would you try fix something thats not broken?

apparently these chains can take 200-250k miles but now some are failing at a third of what they are quoting so even putting a new one on might be pointless?
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      06-16-2015, 05:11 PM   #19
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has there ever been any report of chains going in any of the petrol 6 cylinders ? as i would imagine its the same chain ?
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      06-17-2015, 11:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old grey steve View Post
Mercs are nigh on bomb proof however I've got a 320 CDI in the workshop where a turbo seal let go the cars sadly lunched it's turbo and in the process wiped the engine out. On the Mercs they ensure a couple of good housekeeping rules from the outset.

1/ service intervals are in terms of mileage /time are more old school thru count down in miles/days it's on the dashboard and it'll be there in your eye line every time you drive. If you chose to ignore the info on the dash then it's at your own risk as a driver. I like that as you know where you stand.

2/ Chains on petrol Mercs are an isdue they don't seem to break, they stretch, the gear teeth get knurled but the beauty here is compsred with tge BMW equivalent they are more tolerant of the proble, downside on petrol Mercs is the cost of repair as they are financially a lot more involved than the equivalent BMW.

Diesel wise they just seem to be simply more durable though I know parts cost again if we have an issue are more costly than the equivalent BMW.

But yer right Sam, the 4 cylinder are well documented, the 6 cylinders are coming out the woodwork rather stealthily.

Does that mean..... I should go for Merc or Audi (gays car) next time ?

BMW should make it serviceable item at 100K!
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      06-17-2015, 11:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markcaughey View Post
has there ever been any report of chains going in any of the petrol 6 cylinders ? as i would imagine its the same chain ?
I have a feeling that chances are less on petrol variants. My gut feeling is due to less torque on Petrol cars.... Same as DMF and clutch plates go on diesel cars more than petrol cars.
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      06-17-2015, 03:21 PM   #22
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This is pretty worrying for me as I don't want mine to snap, I service it probably very early 5k but didn't own the car for the first 79k, however it's now got no dpf and has done a few trackdays so possibly won't help it.

As for the mercedes comment, I can vouch for the 651 engine as seen in the A, B, C, E, ML etc we have the same engine in the vans. Some of our customer have 300-400,000 miles on the clock with no chain stretch issues at all. Not sure on Audi stuff, but Mercedes don't suffer timing chain snapping.
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