[meyergru]

Originally Posted by clivem2

Many thanks for your helpful comments. I've been advised before that 31.1.1 should be better that the 30.0.2 that I have and you are further confirming this.

Alas, not quite. Actually, this goes for MSD80 cars. Yours is MSD81. BMW says that MSD81 cars always had separate software. While they are still named vX.Y.Z, they are not the same. So, my feeling is that:

MSD80: pre-v29.2 > v31.1.1 > v30.0.2/V29.2

MSD81: first was v29.2, all show same behaviour (much like MSD80 v31.1.1), that is: the software had to be "less restrictive".

Thus, I don't think that v31.1.1 will fix anything for you. What's worse, no fix for MSD81 cars will be provided AT ALL. Not in January. Not later. Just read the official statement again:

"X6, 135i, and 3 Series/5 Series vehicles from March 2008 production onward are not affected."

READ: These cars have no problem and BMW shall provide no fix. There will be no official solution for your car. Got me?

If you feel otherwise, you're out of luck with an MSD81 car.


I repeat: The BMW announcement includes a fix for MSD80 cars from 09/07 to 03/08, a choice of lag or rattle for pre-09/07 and no fix at all for post 03/08 MSD81 cars (which allegedly are unaffected in BMWs view).

[Manboy]

meyergru,
What do you think was the case with my car? It came with MSD81 V29.2 (confirmed) and was laggy as hell right from the start. After the update to V31 the lag was gone, two weeks after that update the lag came back again.. It gradually started to get more and more laggy.. Very odd, and very dangerous when driving in heavy traffic..

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Pavel

meyergru,
What do you think was the case with my car? It came with MSD81 V29.2 (confirmed) and was laggy as hell right from the start. After the update to V31 the lag was gone, two weeks after that update the lag came back again.. It gradually started to get more and more laggy.. Very odd, and very dangerous when driving in heavy traffic..

I can only guess to what was the problem with your car, Pavel. But I know that there were cases when turbos/wastegates/actuators or HPFPs went bad. The degradation over time you mention tells me than it cannot be the software alone.

Matter-of-fact, Lag was worse with v31.1.1 on my car first and went WAY better when I bent the clips that hold the vacuum lines. So, there could also be problems in the vacuum lines or the pressure transducers that control the wastegate actuators.

As to wastegate behaviour changes on MSD81 cars: BMW only says they did not have to deal with bad hardware in MSD81 cars and so they did not have to be as restrictive as with MSD80 cars. Only heaven knows if MSD81 software behaviour did change with progman versions, too. But most of the time, MSD81 owners here either said they didn't feel any lag or only had slight lag. Apart from you, I have not heard of anyone that felt affected as bad as MSD80 v29.2 or v30.x owners. So, maybe, v31.1.1 is better than v29.2 also on MSD81. But I doubt that there will be a full-blown downgrade option as for MSD80 cars. Actually, if it is true that the software is different (which I believe), there never was a pre-29.2 for MSD81!

Remember: I don't own an MSD81. What I know for sure is the behaviour on the same MSD80 car with v27.2, v30.0.2 and v31.1.1. And hopefully I will get to know the bevahiour with the Fix(tm).

[Christos]

Originally Posted by swartzentruber

How did you determine that (week of build and factory). I'm curious what mine is? Was it in that special info you can find in the computer?

I discovered the month and day mine was built, 10/23/07, using the hidden menus in iDrive. The plant is stamped on the side driver's door, Regensburg Germany.

[Christos]

I have a 10/23/07 335i coupe, bought it in 03/08. In early 04/08, I had a sirius radio put in and I know they had to program the car for the satellite radio, but I am not sure what revision I have. Although I do know that I don't feel strong pull until at least 2500-3000 rpms.

Next week I am going in for my 1st oil change, 14500 miles. Question I have is should I have them update the software with 31.1.?.? as an interim until the January fix comes out? Does 31.1.x.x offer any improvement over 29.2

[iScream]

The story is spreading:

http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-ac...re-update.html

[iScream]

Also, can someone with confirmed v31.1.1 and iDrive please PM me your info per page 79 of this thread?

[midlife]

Originally Posted by meyergru

Alas, not quite. Actually, this goes for MSD80 cars. Yours is MSD81. BMW says that MSD81 cars always had separate software. While they are still named vX.Y.Z, they are not the same. So, my feeling is that:

MSD80: pre-v29.2 > v31.1.1 > v30.0.2/V29.2

MSD81: first was v29.2, all show same behaviour (much like MSD80 v31.1.1), that is: the software had to be "less restrictive".

Thus, I don't think that v31.1.1 will fix anything for you. What's worse, no fix for MSD81 cars will be provided AT ALL. Not in January. Not later. Just read the official statement again:

"X6, 135i, and 3 Series/5 Series vehicles from March 2008 production onward are not affected."

READ: These cars have no problem and BMW shall provide no fix. There will be no official solution for your car. Got me?

If you feel otherwise, you're out of luck with an MSD81 car.


I repeat: The BMW announcement includes a fix for MSD80 cars from 09/07 to 03/08, a choice of lag or rattle for pre-09/07 and no fix at all for post 03/08 MSD81 cars (which allegedly are unaffected in BMWs view).

thanks for the great summary !!

[shaddai]

Here's a copy of an email I received from a BMW NA rep:

I checked with engineer who confirmed that there is going to a update in
late January beginning Feb regarding the turbo lag. However this is not
considered a defect on the vehicle.

So let's pick this apart piece by piece:
* First they say LATE January/Early February. Let's play the waiting game again.
* Second ... the phrase "this is not considered a defect"... this deserves more investigation. Let's look at the definition of defect:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/defect
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/defect

a shortcoming, fault, or imperfection

Now, take a look at the other sticky post in this forum http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856. See the document titled "2007 ENGINE MANAGEMENT". Here's a quote on page 11 of the PDF:

Utmost importance is attached to turbocharger response in the N54 engine. A delayed
response to the driver's command, i.e. the accelerator-pedal position, is not acceptable.
The driver therefore must not experience any so-called "turbo lag".

I would very much agree (and I'm certain a lawyer would as well) that turbo lag falls into a defect by simple examination of the above information. It is an imperfection that the driver feels that we "must not experience".

How's that class action suit going?

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by Tschuss

It's hard to get excited about this upcoming 'fix' considering that
2. June 2006 to Sept 2007 production cars can get the update but might experience more engine noise? I guess this assumes that those cars had not been already updated to 29.2+, what BS. Plus if there's 'more engine noise', that implies that with this update, the waste gates are open at idle, not closed. F***

-Bill

It doesn't assume that at all....or it wouldn't have ever been necessary to release the fix. It's completely contrary to the whole point of them going through all of this effort. Obviously, this fix is only necessary for people who got 29.2 plus, both logically and proven by BMW's statement that they introduced software to fix the wg rattling.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by meyergru

OPTIONALLY, they offer the same "downgrade" as a fix for cars built before 09/07 if the owners feel affected by Lag. However, choosing this downgrade can bring on wastegate rattle noise for those cars ("slightly increased engine noise levels under certain circumstances."). This is not caused by OPEN wastegates, but by CLOSED ones. Thus, as a pre-09/07 owner, you can have rattle OR Lag, but not both. Choose your poison.

So from January 2009 you have, according to build date:

a) pre 09/07: choice of 1) possible rattles (with "no-lag" software) or 2) Lag with default software for these build dates, but no rattle.

b) 09/07 to 03/08: no rattle and no Lag, if you got the "no-lag" software (which will be the default from January onward for these cars).

c) from 03/08 (MSD81): Allegedly never had rattle issues, so the software was never changed, thus, they can never have Lag at all (which you and I doubt).

The problem is, they wrote a horribly generic (and technically incorrect) statement about the "increased engine noise". What the hell is "engine noise"? To me, pure engine noise would be something like intake valves, piston slap, knock, etc etc. Anything else should be better classified, such as intake noise, exhaust noise, wastegate noise, turbocharger noise. There is no reason to mislead people by making them think their motor will be growling louder under the hood under WOT or something. WE know it means wg rattle, but the average Joe would probably not.

As far as choise "a", for people like me...I think we have to pick the poison of NO LAG but possible wg rattle, then just fight to have them replace the hardware if/when the rattle starts (hopefully under warranty). OR, just do Mr. 5's fix and be done with it and forget about the rattle.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by Prof3ssor

To the rest of you that are proclaimed engine builders and race car drivers and doubted us along the way (especially the several pages of the meaning of lag and how we all have no idea what we are talking about) eat a dik!!!

HAHA, bravo, well said, and +1000.

[5soko]

To find out what program Version we have 29.2+ or pre 29.2 why doesnt everyone look at there wasgate while there engine is off, and then tell a friend to start the car, if the wastegate rod gets pulled it, that means the wastegate has shut and that you have pre 29.2, if thew wastgate doesnt get pulled in, its 29.2+ Wouldn't this be a valid way to check?

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by 5soko335i

To find out what program Version we have 29.2+ or pre 29.2 why doesnt everyone look at there wasgate while there engine is off, and then tell a friend to start the car, if the wastegate rod gets pulled it, that means the wastegate has shut and that you have pre 29.2, if thew wastgate doesnt get pulled in, its 29.2+ Wouldn't this be a valid way to check?

Brilliant and stupidly simple idea if it works...i.e. they are easily visible, and the amount of movement in the rod(s) that we are talking about is also easily visible.
IF this might work (which might take confirmation by a pre 29.2 and a 29.2+ owner both checking out this test, then it would be very cool for us 29.2+'ers to really study how much the rod moves right now, vs how much it moves after the "fix." Personally, I will know isntantly when the car is started, via the exhaust tone. It is night and day pre 29.2 to 29.2+, to my ears.

Oh, one factor that MIGHT be a difficulty in this test is "cold start". I can't say for sure that I know what the car does under cold start (pre or post 29.2) to the wastegates. Perhaps (to light the cats ASAP) even pre 29.2 cars pull the rods a bit to let more gasses through until the engine warms a bit in a few seconds. Just thinking out loud...

Anyone have other thoughts on the suggested rod movement check test?

[5soko]

Originally Posted by ezatnova

Brilliant and stupidly simple idea if it works...i.e. they are easily visible, and the amount of movement in the rod(s) that we are talking about is also easily visible.
IF this might work (which might take confirmation by a pre 29.2 and a 29.2+ owner both checking out this test, then it would be very cool for us 29.2+'ers to really study how much the rod moves right now, vs how much it moves after the "fix." Personally, I will know isntantly when the car is started, via the exhaust tone. It is night and day pre 29.2 to 29.2+, to my ears.

Oh, one factor that MIGHT be a difficulty in this test is "cold start". I can't say for sure that I know what the car does under cold start (pre or post 29.2) to the wastegates. Perhaps (to light the cats ASAP) even pre 29.2 cars pull the rods a bit to let more gasses through until the engine warms a bit in a few seconds. Just thinking out loud...

Anyone have other thoughts on the suggested rod movement check test?

Well i just went into my garage, and look at the rear wastgeat/turbo, wich is visible from the top of the engine bay.

Anyways, while the car is off, you can see the wastegate rod, there is a wear mark on the rod from it moving in and out of the Actuator.

Once the car started the ROD moved inside of the actuator and pulled on the wastegate arm, which in effect closed the wastegate shut.

( pre 29.2 i never got updated)

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by shaddai

Here's a copy of an email I received from a BMW NA rep:

...

Originally Posted by ezatnova

The problem is, they wrote a horribly generic (and technically incorrect) statement about the "increased engine noise". What the hell is "engine noise"? To me, pure engine noise would be something like intake valves, piston slap, knock, etc etc. Anything else should be better classified, such as intake noise, exhaust noise, wastegate noise, turbocharger noise. There is no reason to mislead people by making them think their motor will be growling louder under the hood under WOT or something. WE know it means wg rattle, but the average Joe would probably not.

What you both miss is that at least in the U.S., BMW in fact does not want to "admit" anything while still providing a fix. The choice of wording is near-perfect, a small piece of art. Also, the fact that "Dan" nowadays reads the official BMW statement VERBATIM to complaining customers should tell you the whole story.

They know what ackowledgement of a defect would imply:

1. Monetary compensation for customers that have been impaired by this problem for MONTHS - what's more, in cases of build dates 09/07 to 03/08: completely unneccessarily.
2. Rightful claim to a repair of the flawed parts. They'll do it neither in advance nor if the rattle occurs within the warranty period, since "customers should understand" these are just "concerns". BMW wanted to eliminate the rattles - by software - but you chose otherwise.

Read the official statement again very thoroughly and you'll know what I mean. I deem the impreciseness purely intentional.

What they do not say - but we know:

1. The wastegates of pre 09/07 cars are flawed.
2. We did a software fix which we thought customers would not notice ("may be perceptible to the most sensitive drivers") - even for cars that were not affected.
3. If you have flawed wastegates, you can choose to get the same corrected software but may experience rattle (aka "possibility of slightly increased engine noise unde certain circumstances").

I don't think that BMW refers to the noise to the louder exhaust note they introduced with open wastegates. That would actually get softer again with the update. Also, that is independent of the wastegate hardware. They have to mean rattle.

[jaybigboy34]

I am still very confused with which software my car has. My build date is 01/08 and I asked my dealer if they ever update the software while the car is still on the lot and he told me no. So I was thinking I didn't have the 29.2 software. Now by the notice coming out from BMW they are saying that 07's thru 08's are effected by it? How do I know if I have the 29.2 version or not? My car is an AT.

[5soko]

It isn't the actually wastegates that are flawed, it is the actuators and the ROD which do not close the wastegate and begin to stop working 100%, which causes the wastegate to stay a little bit open and not completely shut, which makes the ticking sound.

BMW FIX:
keep wastegate open during idle, instead of closed.

[5soko]

Read my above posts, who would like to compare there wastegate rod, during car being off and car during idle? Maybe we can get on to something

[Canadian-eh]

Originally Posted by 5soko335i

Read my above posts, who would like to compare there wastegate rod, during car being off and car during idle? Maybe we can get on to something

OK - I'll start.

335XI, March 07, no software updates. 50,000 km (31,000 miles).

Stone cold (below freezing, not started today), about 1" of "wear" showing on the rod. Start engine - no wear showing at all, so I imagine at least 1" of "pull". Wait for rpm to die down to 600-700 rpm - still no wear marks showing.

[dinkoh]

Originally Posted by iScream

The story is spreading:

http://www.motorauthority.com/bmw-ac...re-update.html

Why do they make the distinction for cars produced before Sept 2007? A car from pre-Sept 07 with 29.2 isn't the same as a car Oct 2007 with 29.2?

[Lexor1704]

I'll add to the mix

1/08 production, no updates, 16k miles

About 1" wear on rod off and gone at start. After warm up still no wear showing.