[ironic]

great write up from uuc

[Mr. 5]

I did a search and found this thread.
There's some really good info in here to be bumped.

[longodj]

Wow a ton of great info in this thread. And...it's all from Rob@UUC on E90Post damn, he's made like one post in the past year Nice work Rob, good info

[nicknaz]

Great post! thanks for sharing. That should be a sticky!

Regarding the 'dual use' brake pads, I think Ferodo DS2500 and Carbotech Panther Plus are solid choices for street + HPDE pads. I had good experience with the Carbotech pads on my WRX.

They were noisy when cold but rotor wear was not excessive and they had a fairly high max operating temp. I have no racing experience, only DE

[Rob * UUC Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by mikem

Rob, will the 335 use the same calipers ?(I can see me trading by the end of the year)Looks like they could easily accept a bigger a rotor and even my carriers have plenty of room to adjust the caliper further out.

The 335i kit's design is centered around Alcon calipers, we're now developing applications for Alcon for all the bigger and more powerful BMWs.

The 335i and M3 kits should be available in September '08. Watch this section of our website for details:

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/alcon

[Rob * UUC Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Great post! thanks for sharing. That should be a sticky!

Regarding the 'dual use' brake pads, I think Ferodo DS2500 and Carbotech Panther Plus are solid choices for street + HPDE pads. I had good experience with the Carbotech pads on my WRX.

There is no such thing as a dual-purpose pad. You might be able to get away with a pad that survives both applications, but it's going to be a poor performer in one of the environments. As you wrote:

"They were noisy when cold..."

That sounds like an unacceptable set of characteristics for a street pad. I'm sure you left out that they were quite a bit dustier and that the dust was hard to wash off if left on for any period of time. That's just the nature of all aggressive autox/DE/race pads.

If you're doing even two DEs a year, it's actually cheaper to keep a dedicated set of pads and rotors for the track events.

Track pads and track use create a different type of wear pattern on the rotors than street pads and street use. It's very common for a driver to complain of brake vibration/shimmy/noise during street use after a track event... the rotors have been altered.

Also, the way that friction is generated is technically not between pad and rotor... it's between pad and pad material that is embedded in the rotor surface at the molecular level. Ever wonder why you need to "bed in" new rotors and pads? It's to apply that super-thin layer of pad material to the rotor, and then the brakes work right. That's an experience we've all shared.

So what happens when you change to different pads on the same rotors is that you have to bed them in all over again. This is a period of accelerated wear and suboptimal functionality, so you're wasting rotor and pad life.

By keeping matched sets of rotors and pads (and mark the pads driver/passenger side and inner/outer so they are replaced in the same positions), your brakes are always already bedded in when you change for the track, and then change back for street.

Smooth street braking with your street setup, and fully-functional track braking with your track setup. Considering that between travel, hotel, food, event fees, etc., you're probably spending $1500 on a track weekend, a spare set of rotors and pads that lasts you all season is really a tiny expense.

[Mr. 5]

I just pu on the EBC yellow stuff pads and from what I've read, this is as close as you can get when using a track pad for the street.

Without you being biased at all, Do you have any experiences with the yellow stuff pads?
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/yellowstuffinfo.html


.

Originally Posted by Rob * UUC Motorwerks

There is no such thing as a dual-purpose pad. You might be able to get away with a pad that survives both applications, but it's going to be a poor performer in one of the environments. As you wrote:

"They were noisy when cold..."

That sounds like an unacceptable set of characteristics for a street pad. I'm sure you left out that they were quite a bit dustier and that the dust was hard to wash off if left on for any period of time. That's just the nature of all aggressive autox/DE/race pads.

If you're doing even two DEs a year, it's actually cheaper to keep a dedicated set of pads and rotors for the track events.

Track pads and track use create a different type of wear pattern on the rotors than street pads and street use. It's very common for a driver to complain of brake vibration/shimmy/noise during street use after a track event... the rotors have been altered.

Also, the way that friction is generated is technically not between pad and rotor... it's between pad and pad material that is embedded in the rotor surface at the molecular level. Ever wonder why you need to "bed in" new rotors and pads? It's to apply that super-thin layer of pad material to the rotor, and then the brakes work right. That's an experience we've all shared.

So what happens when you change to different pads on the same rotors is that you have to bed them in all over again. This is a period of accelerated wear and suboptimal functionality, so you're wasting rotor and pad life.

By keeping matched sets of rotors and pads (and mark the pads driver/passenger side and inner/outer so they are replaced in the same positions), your brakes are always already bedded in when you change for the track, and then change back for street.

Smooth street braking with your street setup, and fully-functional track braking with your track setup. Considering that between travel, hotel, food, event fees, etc., you're probably spending $1500 on a track weekend, a spare set of rotors and pads that lasts you all season is really a tiny expense.

[Rob * UUC Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I just pu on the EBC yellow stuff pads and from what I've read, this is as close as you can get when using a track pad for the street.

Without you being biased at all, Do you have any experiences with the yellow stuff pads?
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/yellowstuffinfo.html.

I do not have any direct experience with the YellowStuff. I have used the Green (no longer recommended for heavier car use by EBC) and the RedStuff The RedStuff seemed a very good performance street pad, probably comparable to Hawk HP-S, but I destroyed them at VIR on a street car - back when I thought there was still such a thing as a dual-purpose pad, silly me.

- Rob

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by Rob * UUC Motorwerks

You might be able to get away with a pad that survives both applications, but it's going to be a poor performer in one of the environments. As you wrote:

"They were noisy when cold..."

That sounds like an unacceptable set of characteristics for a street pad. I'm sure you left out that they were quite a bit dustier and that the dust was hard to wash off if left on for any period of time. That's just the nature of all aggressive autox/DE/race pads.

If you're doing even two DEs a year, it's actually cheaper to keep a dedicated set of pads and rotors for the track events.

Rob,

Actually the Carbotech Panther Plus didn't dust that much more than stock Subaru pads on the street, and the dust wasn't ridiculous to get off. It took around 3 hard stops to make the squeaking go away on the street. Cold stopping power was acceptable and after 10k miles and some DE use there was no excessive rotor wear

The MOT was 1250F-1350F depending on where you look and it held up to DE use at Thill (I decimated Hawk HPS and stock pads there)

If I was on R compounds I would probably have needed to go to a Hawk HT10 type pad, but I was only using Falken RT615 street tires, so these pads were sufficient

I hear what you are saying about the dedicated track pads and rotors, but for users who aren't fast enough to max out the 1600F MOT of a HT10 race pad, this product could be a great solution.

[Rob * UUC Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

Rob,

Actually the Carbotech Panther Plus didn't dust that much more than stock Subaru pads on the street, and the dust wasn't ridiculous to get off. It took around 3 hard stops to make the squeaking go away on the street. Cold stopping power was acceptable and after 10k miles and some DE use there was no excessive rotor wear

The MOT was 1250F-1350F depending on where you look and it held up to DE use at Thill (I decimated Hawk HPS and stock pads there)

If I was on R compounds I would probably have needed to go to a Hawk HT10 type pad, but I was only using Falken RT615 street tires, so these pads were sufficient

I hear what you are saying about the dedicated track pads and rotors, but for users who aren't fast enough to max out the 1600F MOT of a HT10 race pad, this product could be a great solution.

Reviewing the Carbotech website, this is their official description of the compound (salient points in bold by me):

Carbotech™ AX6™ (1106™): The AX6™ takes the place of the Panther Plus™ compound that was so successful. AX6™ was specifically engineered for Autocross applications. A high torque brake compound delivering reliable and consistent performance over a very wide operating temperature range (150°F to 1250°F +). Advanced compound matrix provides an excellent initial “bite”, high coefficient of friction, and very progressive brake modulation and release characteristics. AX6™ offers high fade resistance, rotor friendliness at all temperatures, excellent cold stopping power, and non corrosive dust. As a result, AX6™ is an excellent choice for Autocross & novice track day drivers and beginner high performance driver education (HPDE) drivers on street driven cars using street tires eliminating the need to change brake pads at the track. AX6™ has gained tremendous popularity with SCCA Prosolo/Solo2 competitors for its fantastic bite, release & modulation. Many drivers use the AX6™ for street driving as well, even though Carbotech doesn’t recommend street driving with AX6™ due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise. AX6™ is NOT a race compound, and should not be used as such. AX6™ shouldn’t be used by any intermediate or advanced track day drivers, and should not be used with “R” compound tires (racing tires). Cars in excess of 300hp and/or 3,000lbs should not use AX6™ for any track use.

Carbotech is a great company, and I have heard other people who are very happy with their products... in fact, we're considering stocking the product.

However, as the description above indicates, this is an auto-x compound with the traditional characteristics of this type of pad. Not designed as a street pad nor track pad, but as a specialized competitive auto-x pad.

Carbotech compounds link: http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.html#compounds1

- Rob

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Rob * UUC Motorwerks

I do not have any direct experience with the YellowStuff. I have used the Green (no longer recommended for heavier car use by EBC) and the RedStuff The RedStuff seemed a very good performance street pad, probably comparable to Hawk HP-S, but I destroyed them at VIR on a street car - back when I thought there was still such a thing as a dual-purpose pad, silly me.

- Rob

OK, I was curious with what you thought, but I guess it's a newer compound.
This is the chart of what this pad can take in terms of heat.
I'll give a review once I bed them in.
I have a feeling that these in addition to my 6 piston/4 piston Rotoras are going to be quite lovely.