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      05-24-2020, 01:30 AM   #1
Hayk90
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No crank, no start (sat 2 years) - '08 328xi E92 N51 Auto

Hey guys, new to the forum and new to BMW DIY repair. Need your help with my first BMW.

Here is the situation:

Vehicle: 2008 BMW 328xi Coupe Automatic with the N51 Engine.

Mileage 137,xxx miles

Condition: No crank, no start. Starter doesn't turn on. All exterior/interior lights and electrics work. Key remote works.

-Vehicle was parked outside uncovered in a private driveway and sat for 2 years.
-1/4 tank of stabilized fuel.
-Brand new 850CCA BMW battery.
-Coolant is present, although low.

Here is what I tried:

1. Boosted old battery, wouldn't go past 7-9volts and kept dropping to 5 volts when unplugged.
2. Tried trickle charging old battery, wouldn't charge, indicating a faulty a cell.
3. Tried jumper cables with another car supplying 14V.
4. Installed a brand new BMW 850CCCA battery (did not program/code anything)
5. Pulled out every fuse behind the glove box and checked for continuity with a multi-meter
6. Pulled both relays behind the glove box and tested for continuity
7. Unplugged the MAF sensor, no change.
8. Scanned the computer with BlueDriver OBD2. No check engine codes, but 27 misc. module codes.

Whenever the brake pedal is held and the Start/Stop button is pressed down, a noise can be heard from under the back seat, which I presume is the fuel pump. I can also hear a faint electrical noise under the hood, but no distinct clicking of any solenoids.

Had to call it a day and went online to research possible issues. Found a guide on e90post about buying a used E9X and found a common issue to be a faulty starter. Later found a YouTube video suggesting to hit the starter a few times to see if it will unstick. Did NOT get to try this trick yet.

BlueDriver OBD2 Results

Page 1 of 3
View post on imgur.com


Page 2 of 3 - Please note Code A0B4 - fault enginestart starter
View post on imgur.com


Page 3 of 3
View post on imgur.com


VIDEO: trying to start it after installing a new battery.


Direct link to video, if it doesn't show up on here (just remove the extra spaces)
https:// vimeo. com/ 422074508


Pictures of the car:

Name:  45188970-E688-4418-9DAA-942AD3277B08_1_201_a.jpg
Views: 2606
Size:  775.7 KB

Name:  17CA10E3-2DE8-428E-AC6B-A4470CBD11B3_1_201_a.jpg
Views: 2503
Size:  723.9 KB

Name:  585195C8-F689-478C-9D10-B70925506C4C_1_201_a.jpg
Views: 4144
Size:  569.0 KB

What do you guys think may be happening here? And what should I try next?

Car is located 1 hour away from me, so testing it is a challenge.

p.s.: Need help learning how to display images and videos on here

Last edited by Hayk90; 06-14-2020 at 09:12 PM..
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      05-24-2020, 02:28 AM   #2
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Most likely the starter. You can use a long thin extension or pipe to reach in between the intake runners are hit it. You have the remove the cowl to access that area though.
Hit it a few times and see if it clicks, if not hit it a bit harder.

To upload images, there should a red + above the typing area. Click it and it opens up a page to upload images.
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      05-24-2020, 05:34 AM   #3
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They make a meter that clamps on to the battery to test for a bad starter.
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      05-24-2020, 05:52 AM   #4
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So I'll ask the dumb questions:

What caused the previous owner to let the car sit outside un-prepped for two years? Was the vehicle inoperable when it was parked? Do you know any of the maintenance history of the vehicle? Have you looked closely for rodent damage to any of the wiring harnesses? Rodents love to move into stationary vehicles and chew on wires.

If you bought the vehicle for a good price (I hope) then it is worth installing a new starter. A new starter requires removal of the intake manifold, so it is a bit of a pain in the ass and usually the PCV hose from the cylinderhead cover to the manifold breaks.

Leaving the car to sit outside in NJ for two years with a 1/4 tank of fuel will most likely mean there is water in the fuel now from condensation of water vapor in the air in the fuel tank. You may want to add several gallons of fresh ethanol gasoline (i.e. normal gasoline with 10% ethanol) so the ethanol can absorb some of the water in the fuel tank.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      05-24-2020, 08:11 AM   #5
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Tapping the starter with a blunt object is a good start. Starters like to seize up when not used for a long time and tapping them with something can free them up. They sometimes do just fine after that with regular use, but sometimes fail again... You want to give it a good whack, but use caution not to dent the case, or hit it so hard you actually break it.

And I'll 2nd efthreeow's questions...what condition was the car in when last parked 2 years ago? Was it a no start condition that made the previous owner give up on it?

2 year old gas will also likely be a problem once you get the car cranking. Hopefully injectors aren't all bummed up.
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      05-24-2020, 11:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emilime75 View Post
Tapping the starter with a blunt object is a good start. Starters like to seize up when not used for a long time and tapping them with something can free them up. They sometimes do just fine after that with regular use, but sometimes fail again... You want to give it a good whack, but use caution not to dent the case, or hit it so hard you actually break it.

And I'll 2nd efthreeow's questions...what condition was the car in when last parked 2 years ago? Was it a no start condition that made the previous owner give up on it?

2 year old gas will also likely be a problem once you get the car cranking. Hopefully injectors aren't all bummed up.
I'd first start the resurrection with a leaf blower...
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      05-24-2020, 01:51 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post

If you bought the vehicle for a good price (I hope) then it is worth installing a new starter. A new starter requires removal of the intake manifold, so it is a bit of a pain in the ass and usually the PCV hose from the cylinderhead cover to the manifold breaks.
This right here! Buy the replacement hoses if you’re going to order them online. Mine broke last year during removal and I had to wait a few days for new ones to arrive before putting it together.
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      05-24-2020, 02:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayk90 View Post
...Vehicle: 2008 BMW 328xi Coupe Automatic with the N51 Engine. Mileage 137,xxx miles; Condition: No crank, no start. Starter doesn't turn on. All exterior/interior lights and electrics work. Key remote works...27 misc. module codes. Whenever the brake pedal is held and the Start/Stop button is pressed down, a noise can be heard from under the back seat, which I presume is the fuel pump. I can also hear a faint electrical noise under the hood, but no distinct clicking of any solenoids...Car is located 1 hour away from me, so testing it is a challenge...
Welcome to the Forum!

ACTIVE Codes (Those Currently Present):

A6CF: AUC Sensor ("Bucket" for now ;-)
CF17: DSC Message missing; SAS reset needed after battery replacement once engine starts
54C6: Transfer Case Oil Wear; normally appears ~ 130,000 miles; "Bucket" for now
604E & 6057: TPMS indicates no signal from RR pressure sensor in wheel; "Bucket"
5EBA: SAS Sensor Reset Needed; turn steering "Lock-to-Lock" twice after engine start; this is common after Dead Battery or Battery disconnection, and likely the cause of CF17 above which should also become "History" when Reset done
A0B4: THIS is indicating NO Starter Activation or Function; WHICH? is the BIG QUESTION
A8C2: Reversing (Backup) Light Fault, Right
A8B6: Brake Light Fault, Left

The rest of the codes are "History" which means those faults are NOT Active or "Currently Present".

Generally, there is NOTHING in the Fault Codes (OTHER than A0B4 ;-) that suggests the car needs substantial work. The FIRST question to be addressed (as you appear to recognize) is WHY won't the Starter Crank? A0B4 confirms that the CAS has recognized the Starter is NOT being activated. AFAIK, that code can occur from either:

1) A faulty Starter/Starter Solenoid: Although 12V+ is being applied to the Solenoid by the CAS, the Solenoid is NOT Activating/Turning the Starter; or

2) The CAS is NOT supplying the 12V+ supply to the Solenoid to trigger the Starter. It would be a shame to go to all the trouble & expense of removing the Intake, replacing the Starter, ONLY to find that the old one passes a bench test & the New one won't crank either.

The CAS Module has the ability to provide quick answers to the question if your Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software has the ability to query the "Parameters" or Live Data (Inputs to CAS Module) from the CAS.

BEFORE the CAS can send the 12V+ Activation Signal to the Starter, in addition to being Powered and a proper key being recognized, the following must happen:
1) Brake Light Switch signal must be received. Does at least ONE of the brake lights come ON when Brake Pedal pressed?
2) Gear Selector Position P/N (Park or Neutral) must be received. Does "P" light in the Gear Indicator Module on Console to Left of gear selector lever with Ignition ON?
3) Engine RPM must be 0.

INPA shows each of those as Live Data, when connected to CAS Module. I don't know anything about BlueDriver, but it MAY have the ability to read such Parameters/Live Data (called "Status" in INPA). It's NOT rocket science, it's just displaying whether inputs are being received by CAS Module, or NOT -- essentially whether a certain switch is "open" or "CLOSED". So I would read the BlueDriver Manual or Documentation to see if IT can do that, and if NOT, consider getting a K+DCAN Cable for $45 (BimmerGeeks) and getting the FREE Download (linked on BimmerGeeks site) for BMW Standard Tools (includes INPA), and E89 Datens, which is what E9x models use.

NEXT, if the necessary Brake & Gear signals are being received, you need to know if CAS is "Activating Terminal 50" which is a measurement of Voltage supplied by CAS to the Starter Solenoid. Once again, the CAS Module gets inputs of Voltage at each "Terminal" including Terminal 50 (Starter Activation) and Terminal 15 (Ignition Activation), as well as Terminal 87 (DME Relay Activation). If your BlueDriver can't do that, consider getting INPA.

So CAS can tell you if it's getting the necessary Input Signals (Brake & Gear) to activate Starter, and if it's sending Voltage to Starter Solenoid (Terminal 50). If you can quickly query that information with Scan Tool or Software, that's the proper FIRST Step. If you don't have the capability to do that via the OBD II Socket, then there are STILL things you can do to DIAGNOSE/TEST before doing surgery.

TIS (newtis.info) has TONS of detailed information on most anything related to E9x models (and other BMW models). Their circuit diagrams are the place to start to understand how a system works, and how to test to identify or confirm the cause of a fault. In this case, the CAS Module wiring diagram is what you want to understand in order to "test before surgery":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uXuCNh9

That's the CAS Module wiring diagram for 2008 328xi E92. The CAS Module has the Code A149a, and the Starter Motor/Solenoid has the Code M6510a in this Schematic. NOTE the Black wire that runs from Pin #22 of Connector X13376 at the CAS to the Starter Connector X6510. That is the wire that supplies voltage to activate the Starter Solenoid and make it click when START is pressed with Brake Pedal pressed and Gear Selector in "P".

So using a simple DMM (Digital Multimeter) you can test for "Activation Signal" when START is pressed. Just go into E-box and measure Voltage at either "intervening connector" between CAS & Starter:
1) X6011, Pin #1: per this TIS Installation Location & Connector View:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-cou/SL92ADs
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-cou/Cjob60dQ

2) X60531, Pin #2: Actually, there MAY be an error in the Schematic, as I find NO "Installation Location" for this Connector on YOUR vehicle. So I would just test at X6011 described above. You might follow the wire from X6011/Pin#1 to see if it goes to another connector within the E-box BEFORE it leaves the E-box to go to the Starter.

You can test TWO different things at X6011 in the E-box:
1) Does CAS send 12V+ signal when START Pressed?
2) Can you activate the Starter Solenoid or make it click by applying 12V+ to DISCONNECTED wire that runs to the Starter? Make sure you don't apply voltage to the CAS -- Disconnect CAS wire to X6011/1.

You may ask: WHY go to the trouble of removing the Microfilter Housings (Upper & Lower) and opening the E-box? Well, you are going to have to remove those housings to remove the Intake Manifold and Starter, so NO time lost if Starter does NOT crank when voltage is applied to DISCONNECTED Starter Solenoid wire.

ALSO, since the car has sat UNUSED for 2 years, IF the starter worked 2 years ago, it is likely that the Solenoid may be "loosened up" and become operative IF you remove the Microfilter Housings, and tap it firmly with a wooden dowel, broom handle, etc. It would be preferable NOT to use a metal rod, as if you contact the Starter Supply wire (BIG, RED WIRE ;-), you are likely to weld it (or yourself ;-) to the chassis/engine, blow the fusible link, etc. You don't indicate ANYTHING about the history of WHY the vehicle was parked for 2 years, NOR whether there was an issue (undiagnosed) with the vehicle which caused it to NOT be used. IF obtaining such history is possible, that might assist in diagnosis.

If you have NOT discovered TIS, Bentley, and other valuable References, or if you are wondering what is the best Diagnostic Tool to use and where to get it, see the attached "E9x References" pdf. BOTH TIS & Bentley contain excellent procedures for performing a particular task, such as Starter R&R. ANY DIY type who owns a BMW NEEDS to know how to use those tools.

George
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File Type: pdf E9x References.pdf (218.0 KB, 112 views)
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      05-24-2020, 03:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serf27 View Post
Most likely the starter. You can use a long thin extension or pipe to reach in between the intake runners are hit it. You have the remove the cowl to access that area though.
Hit it a few times and see if it clicks, if not hit it a bit harder.

To upload images, there should a red + above the typing area. Click it and it opens up a page to upload images.
I will definitely try the starter trick.

Thank for the help with images, that makes it soooo much easier than hosting them myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricx View Post
They make a meter that clamps on to the battery to test for a bad starter.
Interesting, Im gonna look into this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So I'll ask the dumb questions:

1) What caused the previous owner to let the car sit outside un-prepped for two years? 2) Was the vehicle inoperable when it was parked? 3) Do you know any of the maintenance history of the vehicle? 4) Have you looked closely for rodent damage to any of the wiring harnesses? Rodents love to move into stationary vehicles and chew on wires.

5) If you bought the vehicle for a good price (I hope) then it is worth installing a new starter. A new starter requires removal of the intake manifold, so it is a bit of a pain in the ass and usually the PCV hose from the cylinderhead cover to the manifold breaks.

6) Leaving the car to sit outside in NJ for two years with a 1/4 tank of fuel will most likely mean there is water in the fuel now from condensation of water vapor in the air in the fuel tank. You may want to add several gallons of fresh ethanol gasoline (i.e. normal gasoline with 10% ethanol) so the ethanol can absorb some of the water in the fuel tank.
I didn't want to clutter my original post with too much detail, but I hope I can answer some of it here.

1) Previous owner is a close family member. He no longer needed two cars and started driving his newer car instead. I don't know why he didn't alternate them or prep the BMW for long-term storage.

2) According to him, the BMW ran normally when it was parked. Some time later, he added stabilizer to the fuel, but the engine wasn't turning on anymore so he wasn't able to circulate the fuel. His assumption was that the battery died. He expressed an issue with his brakes failing on him once or twice - the property has a very steep driveway and he skidded off of it into the grass. So I image that had something to do with not driving it anymore.

3) Very little known maintenance. I know the engine oil was changed by the owner, don't know how frequently. He had the rear suspension (maybe shocks) repaired by a local shop. The rear right wheel well is missing the splash shield, he said he hit something. This may explain why there are codes in the system for the Rear Right wheel. Tires are ContiProContact SSR and I noticed a 2018 date code on one of them, so they must have been serviced some time before it was parked. I'm gonna ask if he has any service records, but I doubt it.

4) Didn't get to lift the car due to the sloped driveway nor remove any covers under the hood. Didn't see any obvious signs of a rodent nest, yet. They have a very active dog and lots of large birds in the area, so hopefully that deterred any small critters from staying there for too long.

5) Car isn't officially purchased yet, more of a mutual agreement. He was planning to scrap it and have the scrap yard tow it away. We agreed that I would pay whatever they were offering him and hopefully drive it out of there. Watched the starter replacement video and how common the failure is. I'm gonna try to diagnose it a little further before throwing more money at it. Worst case scenario, it will get towed to a nearby BMW shop, but I would rather do the repair myself if know it's the culprit.

6) Yeah I'm concerned about the fuel as well. Knowing how easily it destroys carburetors and fuel hoses on small engines, I can only imagine what the fuel injectors are like. I will try adding 5 gallons of fresh fuel and maybe a fuel system cleaner.


To explain why I'm doing this. My dad got really interested in the car and is excited to get it running again and doesn't mind paying for repairs that it needs. I am fairly comfortable around car repair, so I figured I'd give it my best shot. The car was going to go to a scrap yard, but it's still in a pretty decent shape and it would be a shame to dispose of it if its a simple starter fix - the car is worth at least 3 grand in its current condition with a running engine. If it was my money, I would walk away as it seems there is a lot of deferred maintenance, lack of service records, oil leaks, lots of wear and tear on the interior, plus all the other issues that come with sitting for so long such as tires, brakes, suspension, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emilime75 View Post
Tapping the starter with a blunt object is a good start. Starters like to seize up when not used for a long time and tapping them with something can free them up. They sometimes do just fine after that with regular use, but sometimes fail again... You want to give it a good whack, but use caution not to dent the case, or hit it so hard you actually break it.

And I'll 2nd efthreeow's questions...what condition was the car in when last parked 2 years ago? Was it a no start condition that made the previous owner give up on it?

2 year old gas will also likely be a problem once you get the car cranking. Hopefully injectors aren't all bummed up.
Definitely going to give the starter a whack. See above for more info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'd first start the resurrection with a leaf blower...
Hell yeah. The weather was not on our side yesterday. Intermittent rain showers made the leaves soggy and difficult to remove. Coming back with a leaf blower and a shop vac before I go further.
There is also moss/mold all over the passenger side exterior, that you may not see in the pictures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serf27 View Post
This right here! Buy the replacement hoses if you’re going to order them online. Mine broke last year during removal and I had to wait a few days for new ones to arrive before putting it together.
Thank you, will make a mental note for those hoses, if it comes to replacing the starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Welcome to the Forum!

ACTIVE Codes (Those Currently Present):

A6CF: AUC Sensor ("Bucket" for now ;-)
CF17: DSC Message missing; SAS reset needed after battery replacement once engine starts
54C6: Transfer Case Oil Wear; normally appears ~ 130,000 miles; "Bucket" for now
604E & 6057: TPMS indicates no signal from RR pressure sensor in wheel; "Bucket"
5EBA: SAS Sensor Reset Needed; turn steering "Lock-to-Lock" twice after engine start; this is common after Dead Battery or Battery disconnection, and likely the cause of CF17 above which should also become "History" when Reset done
A0B4: THIS is indicating NO Starter Activation or Function; WHICH? is the BIG QUESTION
A8C2: Reversing (Backup) Light Fault, Right
A8B6: Brake Light Fault, Left

The rest of the codes are "History" which means those faults are NOT Active or "Currently Present".

Generally, there is NOTHING in the Fault Codes (OTHER than A0B4 ;-) that suggests the car needs substantial work. The FIRST question to be addressed (as you appear to recognize) is WHY won't the Starter Crank? A0B4 confirms that the CAS has recognized the Starter is NOT being activated. AFAIK, that code can occur from either:

1) A faulty Starter/Starter Solenoid: Although 12V+ is being applied to the Solenoid by the CAS, the Solenoid is NOT Activating/Turning the Starter; or

2) The CAS is NOT supplying the 12V+ supply to the Solenoid to trigger the Starter. It would be a shame to go to all the trouble & expense of removing the Intake, replacing the Starter, ONLY to find that the old one passes a bench test & the New one won't crank either.

The CAS Module has the ability to provide quick answers to the question if your Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software has the ability to query the "Parameters" or Live Data (Inputs to CAS Module) from the CAS.

BEFORE the CAS can send the 12V+ Activation Signal to the Starter, in addition to being Powered and a proper key being recognized, the following must happen:
1) Brake Light Switch signal must be received. Does at least ONE of the brake lights come ON when Brake Pedal pressed?
2) Gear Selector Position P/N (Park or Neutral) must be received. Does "P" light in the Gear Indicator Module on Console to Left of gear selector lever with Ignition ON?
3) Engine RPM must be 0.

INPA shows each of those as Live Data, when connected to CAS Module. I don't know anything about BlueDriver, but it MAY have the ability to read such Parameters/Live Data (called "Status" in INPA). It's NOT rocket science, it's just displaying whether inputs are being received by CAS Module, or NOT -- essentially whether a certain switch is "open" or "CLOSED". So I would read the BlueDriver Manual or Documentation to see if IT can do that, and if NOT, consider getting a K+DCAN Cable for $45 (BimmerGeeks) and getting the FREE Download (linked on BimmerGeeks site) for BMW Standard Tools (includes INPA), and E89 Datens, which is what E9x models use.

NEXT, if the necessary Brake & Gear signals are being received, you need to know if CAS is "Activating Terminal 50" which is a measurement of Voltage supplied by CAS to the Starter Solenoid. Once again, the CAS Module gets inputs of Voltage at each "Terminal" including Terminal 50 (Starter Activation) and Terminal 15 (Ignition Activation), as well as Terminal 87 (DME Relay Activation). If your BlueDriver can't do that, consider getting INPA.

So CAS can tell you if it's getting the necessary Input Signals (Brake & Gear) to activate Starter, and if it's sending Voltage to Starter Solenoid (Terminal 50). If you can quickly query that information with Scan Tool or Software, that's the proper FIRST Step. If you don't have the capability to do that via the OBD II Socket, then there are STILL things you can do to DIAGNOSE/TEST before doing surgery.

TIS (newtis.info) has TONS of detailed information on most anything related to E9x models (and other BMW models). Their circuit diagrams are the place to start to understand how a system works, and how to test to identify or confirm the cause of a fault. In this case, the CAS Module wiring diagram is what you want to understand in order to "test before surgery":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uXuCNh9

That's the CAS Module wiring diagram for 2008 328xi E92. The CAS Module has the Code A149a, and the Starter Motor/Solenoid has the Code M6510a in this Schematic. NOTE the Black wire that runs from Pin #22 of Connector X13376 at the CAS to the Starter Connector X6510. That is the wire that supplies voltage to activate the Starter Solenoid and make it click when START is pressed with Brake Pedal pressed and Gear Selector in "P".

So using a simple DMM (Digital Multimeter) you can test for "Activation Signal" when START is pressed. Just go into E-box and measure Voltage at either "intervening connector" between CAS & Starter:
1) X6011, Pin #1: per this TIS Installation Location & Connector View:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-cou/SL92ADs
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-cou/Cjob60dQ

2) X60531, Pin #2: Actually, there MAY be an error in the Schematic, as I find NO "Installation Location" for this Connector on YOUR vehicle. So I would just test at X6011 described above. You might follow the wire from X6011/Pin#1 to see if it goes to another connector within the E-box BEFORE it leaves the E-box to go to the Starter.

You can test TWO different things at X6011 in the E-box:
1) Does CAS send 12V+ signal when START Pressed?
2) Can you activate the Starter Solenoid or make it click by applying 12V+ to DISCONNECTED wire that runs to the Starter? Make sure you don't apply voltage to the CAS -- Disconnect CAS wire to X6011/1.

You may ask: WHY go to the trouble of removing the Microfilter Housings (Upper & Lower) and opening the E-box? Well, you are going to have to remove those housings to remove the Intake Manifold and Starter, so NO time lost if Starter does NOT crank when voltage is applied to DISCONNECTED Starter Solenoid wire.

ALSO, since the car has sat UNUSED for 2 years, IF the starter worked 2 years ago, it is likely that the Solenoid may be "loosened up" and become operative IF you remove the Microfilter Housings, and tap it firmly with a wooden dowel, broom handle, etc. It would be preferable NOT to use a metal rod, as if you contact the Starter Supply wire (BIG, RED WIRE ;-), you are likely to weld it (or yourself ;-) to the chassis/engine, blow the fusible link, etc. You don't indicate ANYTHING about the history of WHY the vehicle was parked for 2 years, NOR whether there was an issue (undiagnosed) with the vehicle which caused it to NOT be used. IF obtaining such history is possible, that might assist in diagnosis.

If you have NOT discovered TIS, Bentley, and other valuable References, or if you are wondering what is the best Diagnostic Tool to use and where to get it, see the attached "E9x References" pdf. BOTH TIS & Bentley contain excellent procedures for performing a particular task, such as Starter R&R. ANY DIY type who owns a BMW NEEDS to know how to use those tools.

George
George, you are the man. Thank you so much for that info and for analyzing my trouble codes, step by step. I recently read about the INPA software and how powerful it is. I'm gonna see what BlueDriver is capable of, I don't think it has access to specific live data such as the Gear Position, Brake Lights, etc. but I may be wrong. It varies by each car it's connected to.

I know from a visual inspection, the Park indicator was lit up on the gear selector and brake lights were working, RPM's obviously at 0. But the real answer is if the CAS module is seeing the same inputs, as you mentioned.

I'm gonna review the sources you provided for testing the activation signal and the 12V input through the disconnected solenoid wire, that I should be able to do with my multi-meter, as long as I know where to check.

Thanks again for all the info, it's very thorough and logical in how to troubleshoot this issue.
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      05-25-2020, 08:48 AM   #10
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To let a fine automobile like an E92 with just 137,000 miles on it to sit for 2 years and then SCRAP IT, is automotive blasphemy, let alone a case of BMW abuse. A well cared for E9X at 137,000 miles has literally hundreds of thousands of miles left in it. Why didn't he just sell it when it was in drivable shape. It says the current owner really didn't care for the car before he parked it to let it die. So I'd offer him very little money for it (he was going to scrap it anyway), since you really don't know the level of abuse the car has seen due to lack of proper maintenance.

So a bit more about rodent damage. I live in a rural area and have several cars that sit for mere days or at most a week, and every one has had rodents move in and cause damage. From 2004 thru 2017 I had two beagles, who freely hunted my property for hours every day, and there are plenty of snakes, birds or prey, and other "hunters" to keep rodents at bay, and even my daily driver, which sees 170 miles a day, still got attacked by mice (George will remember my comment about "killing the mouse" from a few years ago ).

So what I would do is remove the cabin airfilter housing (people mistakenly call it the "cowl"). It takes just a 8MM socket and 5 minutes. You will get a better look at the wiring harnesses up on the firewall. And more light will allow you to look at the starter between the intake runners. There is a single "signal" wire that triggers the starter solenoid, which if broken, will cause the problem you are experiencing. The engine in the E9X is canted to the right, about 15 degrees, which creates a perfect ledge under the intake manifold for a rodent to make a nest on the left-side of the engine block; I found a nest there in my 325i when I replaced the starter/CCV system last year, and several other members here have found nests as well. The signal wire for the starter hangs freely in space right where rodents like to make a nest on the engine in an E90.

Remove the cabin airfilter housing and get a bright flashlight and verify the signal wire is still intact as a first order of diagnosis. You need to look between the 5th and 6th cylinder intake runners to get a good look at the starter, which requires removal of the cabin airfilter. If you find the wire intact, then I really think the starter went bad sitting for 2 years. The Bendix-drive that throws the starter gear onto the flywheel ring gear eventually gets gunked up with dirt and will stick, which is why hitting the starter while it is energized sometimes frees the Bendix-Drive and the starter works again. Letting the starter sit make the problem worse. Hell, it might be worth trying to get some penetrating oil on the starter in the hopes it creeps into the Bendix-drive.
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 05-25-2020 at 10:41 AM..
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      05-25-2020, 06:27 PM   #11
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I have noticed that gasoline engines have an issue with their engine ground cable, which is located under the engine, it is noticeable by its large diameter and the fact that it is not covered by plastic. It is oxidizing, and breaks the ground connection of the engine.
Unfortunately this issue usually creates another problem in CAS, it either breaks the startup relay or burns some circuits. In both cases the engine won't crank.

I suggest that you check that ground wire, and put your ear under the steering wheel while pressing the start button to listen if the CAS relay engages.
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      05-25-2020, 09:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icon2015 View Post
... it [Engine ground cable] is not covered by plastic. It is oxidizing, and breaks the ground connection of the engine. Unfortunately this issue usually creates another problem in CAS, it either breaks the startup relay or burns some circuits. In both cases the engine won't crank...
You might want to review your concept of current flow in an electrical circuit. If the Ground (return of current to the battery (-) terminal via the chassis) is interrupted/ BROKEN, NO CURRENT flows, as you have an OPEN Circuit. You ONLY have a circuit in which current can flow IF the Ground is intact.

So failure or complete disconnection of the Ground Cable between the Engine Block and the Chassis, will NOT damage any relay or "burn" or overheat ANYTHING, except perhaps the SMALLER ground cable on the opposite side of the engine which CAN'T carry the Amps the Starter draws.

OP, if you want to quickly Rule OUT the Engine Ground Strap, simply attach ONE jumper cable as a supplemental ground, between the (-) Jumpstart hex pin on the right wing/fender, and a substantial metal bolt/fitting on the engine block. That acts as an Additional Ground Strap, so if anything NOW works with that attached (such as the Starter) which did NOT work before, THEN get the car on ramps and inspect the ground strap at the left rear of engine next to the Starter Motor.

George
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      05-25-2020, 10:25 PM   #13
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Guys I got some great news, the starter is now working! The broom stick did it.

George, the K+DCAN cable is on order from BimmerGeeks.

Day 2 was as follows:
  1. Removed all the loose leaves and dirt from and around the car.
  2. Cleaned out all the water drains along the windshield and rear glass.
  3. Checked the date codes on the tires. 2013 for both Front 2017 Left Rear, 2018 Right Rear.
  4. Brakes have plenty of meat front and rear. Brake fluid looks good. (see below).
  5. Fully vacuumed the whole interior.
  6. Found an invoice for a new right rear tire, front rotor & pads, rear rotors & pads @ 130,000 miles, only 7,000 miles ago! Owner said he hit something with the right rear, so that explains the tire and missing wheel well cover, side skirt appears to be loose as well.
  7. Found a receipt for a gas fill up from August 2018, likely the last time this car moved
  8. Checked the trunk for any water, completely dry!
  9. Checked battery voltage under the hood, 12.4V at the posts.
  10. Removed the cowl/cabin filter assembly.
  11. Inspected for rodents - no nests, just spider webs.
  12. Hit the starter with a stick, engine started to crank!
  13. Added 5 gallons of fresh Premium.
  14. Engine still cranking but slower than normal.
  15. Battery voltage at 11 and change.
  16. Attached a jumper pack, still cranking slow.
  17. Hooked up jumper cables with a running car, cranking but not starting.
  18. The more we tried, the more it sounded like it was starting to ignite but just wouldn't catch, so let the starter cool down.
  19. Removed the air box, it had some loose leaves/branches inside the box and the filter is rather dirty but nothing serious.
  20. Tried starting without the Air Box/MAF and sprayed Carb Cleaner through the intake pipe. Engine started for 1 sec and died right away. Wouldn't start again even while spraying more carb cleaner.
  21. Couldn't find my OBD2 scanner, so didn't get to check for Live Data nor any new codes.

Found out about the service history from the owner:

"The first 4 years was all on schedule at the dealer. After that I did all the oil and fluid stuff.
Other repairs are as things went wrong. Belts, suspension, brakes, etc.
The last thing I did was replace a couple coils and spark plugs to fix a misfire
Oil was changed every 5k miles
It's had the radio replaced, headlights were on recall, air bag on recall, exhaust header gasket, reverse (some lever or spring under the transmission), belt, alternator.
That was all at the dealer. Guy I found did the rear suspension. Did the tires and brakes after I gave up on the dealer.
I believe there was one more open recall that they didn’t have the part developed for before I stopped driving it."


Sun went down, so that's it for now.
  • I'm thinking it's either Fuel or Spark related.
  • I have a fuel pressure gauge, so I can check pressure at the fuel rail, however is it also possible to remove the injectors and inspect them without getting all new gaskets?
  • For spark, I'm thinking of laying the coil and plug on the engine block and visually checking for spark while the engine is cranking. Is there another better way?
  • Air is good, unless there is something wrong up the stream.
  • The engine definitely sounds like it has compression.
  • I was thinking of removing the accessory belt and checking all the pulleys by hand to make sure nothing is seized and holding the engine back.

What do you guys think I should try next?

p.s.: Short video will be included in a bit, but here are a few more pictures of the car for now.

Before and After leaf blowing/vacuum
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Engine cowl and intake off.
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Me hitting the starter as the engine is cranking
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Last edited by Hayk90; 05-25-2020 at 10:40 PM..
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      05-25-2020, 11:29 PM   #14
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Nice!!
It’s a fuel issue if it started with carb cleaner.

You don’t have to remove the belt to check for frozen accessories. Simply have someone crank it while you look at the accessories and look for any that aren’t spinning.

The starter may still possibly be bad if the engine is turning over slower than it should.

How long did you crank it for? Maybe the good fuel didn’t reach the engine and that’s why it isn’t starting.
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      05-26-2020, 12:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayk90 View Post
... the starter is now working! The broom stick did it. George, the K+DCAN cable is on order from BimmerGeeks.
  • Hit the starter with a stick, engine started to crank!
  • Added 5 gallons of fresh Premium.
  • Engine still cranking but slower than normal. [What are you comparing with? What is RPM reading on Tach during cranking?]
  • Battery voltage at 11 and change. [Get a charger on it. It SHOULD be 12.5 V at the Jumpstart Terminals under hood, but anything >/= 12.0V should crank the starter. 11.X V is problematic. Use Jumpstart Terminals BOTH for Charger & Jumping. Do NOT connect to the battery in the trunk as that MAY cause damage to the IBS (Intelligent Battery Sensor) on the Negative Battery Cable.]
  • Attached a jumper pack, still cranking slow.
  • Hooked up jumper cables with a running car, cranking but not starting.
  • Tried starting without the Air Box/MAF and sprayed Carb Cleaner through the intake pipe. Engine started for 1 sec and died right away. Wouldn't start again even while spraying more carb cleaner.
  • Couldn't find my OBD2 scanner, so didn't get to check for Live Data nor any new codes.
...
  • I'm thinking it's either Fuel or Spark related.
  • I have a fuel pressure gauge, so I can check pressure at the fuel rail, however is it also possible to remove the injectors and inspect them without getting all new gaskets? [I would NOT remove the injectors. I have seen injectors "stick" after sitting unused for years [untreated fuel gets "gummy", but you can just test with a 9V battery, or 12V from Jumpstart Terminal, applying 12V+ to Pin #1, Orange wire, and BRIEF Chassis Ground to Pin #2, White/Whatever wire (just a "tap"). If NO click from injector when powered in that fashion, some light impact to the METAL injector body with a small metal object, like a 1/4" ratchet, will often free a "stuck" injector (similar to what you did with starter, just a LOT less impact). ]
  • For spark, I'm thinking of laying the coil and plug on the engine block and visually checking for spark while the engine is cranking. Is there another better way? [Sounds Good]
  • Air is good, unless there is something wrong up the stream. [If you are trying to start engine with Air Filter Housing & MAF removed, make sure you have disconnected the MAF Connector at the rear of the Filter Housing, so the DME runs "Mapped". You WILL have an MAF code of course.]
  • The engine definitely sounds like it has compression.
  • I was thinking of removing the accessory belt and checking all the pulleys by hand to make sure nothing is seized and holding the engine back. [If it fired for a second on Brake Cleaner, I would NOT bother with that]

What do you guys think I should try next? [STILL got the BlueDriver? CODES are always good, and you probably have some NEW ones now that the Starter has cranked the Engine, and the Engine has fired on Brake Cleaner (Ether/Starting Fluid would be better ;-)]...
Glad to know the Starter is working. Likely the Starter Solenoid and "Bendix" just liked "got used to" the position they had been in for two years (inertia, rust, corrosion & all that ;-)

Once the Starter Cranks the engine, new codes related to Crankshaft Sensor, Cam Position Sensors, VVT, etc. may be present, OR there could be NO Main DME Relay (Terminal 87), Ignition (Terminal 15) Relay, etc. Since you're experienced in automotive systems generally, but unfamiliar with specific BMW E92 Systems, I would suggest getting Codes FIRST. While BMW-specific "Hex-codes" are preferable, for the DME (Engine Control Module), ANY generic P-code reader will give you most anything important (NOT the 5 Electric Coolant Pump Codes -- but that pump is NOT preventing Starting ;-)

INPA (BMW Standard Tools) will give you the most comprehensive Diagnostics, in ALL ~ 20 Modules in the Vehicle, but at the moment, all we need is info from the DME. So beg/ borrow/ steal ANY decent scan tool and read codes. Read Freeze Frame Data for each code TOO if tool will provide it (it's saved in the DME, it's just a matter of what the Tool can Read, and if you know HOW to use it.

With Fault Codes, we can provide TIS circuits & suggested tests. I have a "little trouble" with the concept of the owner just quit driving it even though it was running. Most people would at least start it every several weeks or month, even though they had a new vehicle, and even though the Safety Inspection (or registration) had expired.

If it started on Brake Cleaner for ~ 1 second, then you have Ignition. Need to check for fuel pump (in tank under RR seat cushion) whine when you unlock the car or open the driver door. If pump is NOT running, there SHOULD be a fault code in the DME (as well as in the EKPS (Fuel Pump Module). There could be a wiring/ connector fault, or even just a bad/ blown fuse.

Here are the TIS circuits for Fuel Pump, Injectors, and Coils for 2008 328xi E92 (N51):
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ection/vQegKNb
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...nition/vBlJ2fy

The old-school way of disconnecting coil (COP coil), attaching a spare sparkplug (or taking out the one coil was attached to), grounding plug, and looking for spark during Starter Cranking works if your Starter does, and YOU don't get shocked.

The N51 has some "Features" (Over-engineering for "Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle" status (SULEV), such as different Gas Tank Plumbing and Fuel Pump circuitry, which CAN cause issues.

I would start by reading codes, checking fuses F70 (Fuel Pump Module/Pump) and F39 (Coils & Injectors). There are a lot of other tests we can devise if we have the codes.

George

Last edited by gbalthrop; 05-26-2020 at 12:53 AM..
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      05-26-2020, 01:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serf27 View Post
Nice!!
It’s a fuel issue if it started with carb cleaner.

You don’t have to remove the belt to check for frozen accessories. Simply have someone crank it while you look at the accessories and look for any that aren’t spinning.

The starter may still possibly be bad if the engine is turning over slower than it should.

How long did you crank it for? Maybe the good fuel didn’t reach the engine and that’s why it isn’t starting.
1. It's strange it kicked on only once and wouldn't run again on any future attempts. I tried adding more carb cleaner after that 1 sec but it wouldn't change.

2. I forgot to mention I smelled some burning rubber after cranking the engine for a while but couldn't seen any smoke. That's why I was thinking maybe one of the accessories wasn't turning? Didn't have the foresight to look at the pulleys as the engine was turning.

3. We did a bunch of time, probably around 10 attempts. Held the button until it stopped the starter on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Glad to know the Starter is working. Likely the Starter Solenoid and "Bendix" just liked "got used to" the position they had been in for two years (inertia, rust, corrosion & all that ;-)

Once the Starter Cranks the engine, new codes related to Crankshaft Sensor, Cam Position Sensors, VVT, etc. may be present, OR there could be NO Main DME Relay (Terminal 87), Ignition (Terminal 15) Relay, etc. Since you're experienced in automotive systems generally, but unfamiliar with specific BMW E92 Systems, I would suggest getting Codes FIRST. While BMW-specific "Hex-codes" are preferable, for the DME (Engine Control Module), ANY generic P-code reader will give you most anything important (NOT the 5 Electric Coolant Pump Codes -- but that pump is NOT preventing Starting ;-)

INPA (BMW Standard Tools) will give you the most comprehensive Diagnostics, in ALL ~ 20 Modules in the Vehicle, but at the moment, all we need is info from the DME. So beg/ borrow/ steal ANY decent scan tool and read codes. Read Freeze Frame Data for each code TOO if tool will provide it (it's saved in the DME, it's just a matter of what the Tool can Read, and if you know HOW to use it.

With Fault Codes, we can provide TIS circuits & suggested tests. I have a "little trouble" with the concept of the owner just quit driving it even though it was running. Most people would at least start it every several weeks or month, even though they had a new vehicle, and even though the Safety Inspection (or registration) had expired.

If it started on Brake Cleaner for ~ 1 second, then you have Ignition. Need to check for fuel pump (in tank under RR seat cushion) whine when you unlock the car or open the driver door. If pump is NOT running, there SHOULD be a fault code in the DME (as well as in the EKPS (Fuel Pump Module). There could be a wiring/ connector fault, or even just a bad/ blown fuse.

Here are the TIS circuits for Fuel Pump, Injectors, and Coils for 2008 328xi E92 (N51):
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ection/vQegKNb
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...nition/vBlJ2fy

The old-school way of disconnecting coil (COP coil), attaching a spare sparkplug (or taking out the one coil was attached to), grounding plug, and looking for spark during Starter Cranking works if your Starter does, and YOU don't get shocked.

The N51 has some "Features" (Over-engineering for "Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle" status (SULEV), such as different Gas Tank Plumbing and Fuel Pump circuitry, which CAN cause issues.

I would start by reading codes, checking fuses F70 (Fuel Pump Module/Pump) and F39 (Coils & Injectors). There are a lot of other tests we can devise if we have the codes.

George
George, I will hopefully have more scanner data either with BlueDriver or when the BimmerGeeks cable arrives. Not sure I know anyone with a professional scan tool.

I was able to hear the fuel pump priming on every Start button press on Day 1. Did not explicitly check for it on Day 2, but I think I remember hearing it. I didn't push the Start button on Day 2, instead I had helpers do it for me while I watched the engine bay. I definitely heard fuel pressure build under the hood, or something that sounded like fuel pressure right before the starter kicked on. There is also a distinct buzzing noise coming from the interior, possibly the speakers, whenever I open the door. It usually goes away after a minute or so. Maybe it's the fuel pump as well.

One thing I forgot to mention, I locked the car with the hood on its first latch and a trickle charger hooked up to the jumper posts...I noticed when I left for the day, I saw the 'P' lit up on the transmission shifter even though the car was off. Is that normal for BMWs? I would have assumed that all the lights would turn off when the car is locked, but then again I can turn on the radio without having the key in the ignition, so what do I know?

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Also, here is the video. It starts on Attempt #11. (remove the extra spaces)
https://vimeo.com/ 422690947

p.s.: Could somebody please explain how to post Vimeo links on here? They show up as a blank screen for me when I use a direct link and the embedded code doesn't work. Tried using VIMEO tags, same issues.

Last edited by Hayk90; 05-26-2020 at 02:42 AM..
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      05-26-2020, 05:16 AM   #17
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I think the injectors are gummed up. I would try real starter fluid rather than carb cleaner. If it rotates and has sparks, then starter fluid will get the engine to lite up for a few seconds, which may get the injectors to warm up and unstick.

Pull the engine cover and have a look around. Just a crazy idea, but get a vibrating toothbrush and massage the injectors a bit with it. Oral sells a battery powered toothbrush for a few dollars that runs at a frequency similar to a sonic cleaner.
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      05-26-2020, 11:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayk90 View Post
1. It's strange it kicked on only once and wouldn't run again on any future attempts. I tried adding more carb cleaner after that 1 sec but it wouldn't change. [That suggests a Fault Code was saved when it fired for a second. There are Faults which can cause a shutdown of the DME's "timing" of spark & injector pulse (no spark, no fuel), such as loss of Crankshaft Sensor Signal, or loss of either/both Cam Position Sensor Signals, as the DME can't properly time spark & injector pulse WITHOUT those signals.
You probably have or HAD multiple issues, such as: Initially, air in fuel rail that had NOT been fully-expelled, preventing injector function, OR "gummed-up" injectors. Tap on them and apply voltage after disconnecting each injector connector, to free them up, as described in prior post.]

2. I forgot to mention I smelled some burning rubber after cranking the engine for a while but couldn't seen any smoke. That's why I was thinking maybe one of the accessories wasn't turning? Didn't have the foresight to look at the pulleys as the engine was turning. [Check to see that A/C Control Panel is OFF (Display UN-lighted). Repeatedly press SMALL blower icon to reduce blower speed to 0 & Display goes OFF. That will make sure Compressor Valve is NOT activated and reduce likelihood of faulty A/C Compressor slowing engine cranking. Does the Tach read anything at all during cranking? If you have a Scan Tool that reads Engine RPM as a Parameter (Most DO) attach that and monitor RPM during cranking. No need to GUESS about RPM during cranking UNLESS the Sensor input to DME that shows Engine Speed has missing signal.]

3. We did a bunch of time, probably around 10 attempts. Held the button until it stopped the starter on its own. [The way the CAS START button works in normal operation is that you just press START & immediately release. The CAS Module then monitors the situation and Releases Starter activation when it fires (normally 1 to 2 seconds of Starter Cranking). Try using that procedure, and time how many seconds the starter cranks before CAS shuts it down. If it does NOT disengage Starter after 10 seconds, press STOP (second press of SAME button), as you do NOT want to overheat the Starter. Then you WILL have to replace it for sure. ]

George, I will hopefully have more scanner data either with BlueDriver or when the BimmerGeeks cable arrives. Not sure I know anyone with a professional scan tool. [Don't need anything fancy. A simple, basic $30 Scan Tool will read all the DME Fault Codes you need to see, and PROBABLY also provide Freeze Frame Data, so you can see the mileage/km at which the code was saved to know if recent or old. You can also CLEAR existing codes, AFTER recording all available data on existing, and see what comes back. As stated earlier, any codes related to Crankshaft Sensor or Cam Position Sensor signals are key to having spark & injector pulse.]
...
There is also a distinct buzzing noise coming from the interior, possibly the speakers, whenever I open the door. [If Remote Key is in the Insert Compartment, or the car has "Comfort Access" that senses presence of remote key in car, there is a "gong" that sounds to warn of open door, or key activation (radio also comes on), and both the gong & radio are via speakers.]...
I can't tell from your post if you are intending to/have already download/ed BMW Standard Tools, which contains INPA Diagnostic Software, via the BimmerGeeks Download Link, and install that on your laptop. While that WILL give you the BEST Diagnostic capability I know of, it DOES take some time (hours) to get installed properly, and learn the basics. It is worth that time if you own a BMW which you maintain yourself, and we can walk you through what screens to view/save, and how to do that.

For NOW, ANY DME Fault Codes will do.

George
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      05-26-2020, 02:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
I can't tell from your post if you are intending to/have already download/ed BMW Standard Tools, which contains INPA Diagnostic Software, via the BimmerGeeks Download Link, and install that on your laptop. While that WILL give you the BEST Diagnostic capability I know of, it DOES take some time (hours) to get installed properly, and learn the basics. It is worth that time if you own a BMW which you maintain yourself, and we can walk you through what screens to view/save, and how to do that.

For NOW, ANY DME Fault Codes will do.

George
Software will be installed on my MacBookPro using a Virtual Machine running Windows XP 32-bit. Used it before for Toyota/Lexus Techstream and it worked great. Just waiting for the cable to arrive.

Thanks for all that info, I will follow your instructions and check everything you mentioned next time I'm out there, which should be tomorrow.
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      05-26-2020, 05:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
You might want to review your concept of current flow in an electrical circuit. If the Ground (return of current to the battery (-) terminal via the chassis) is interrupted/ BROKEN, NO CURRENT flows, as you have an OPEN Circuit. You ONLY have a circuit in which current can flow IF the Ground is intact.

So failure or complete disconnection of the Ground Cable between the Engine Block and the Chassis, will NOT damage any relay or "burn" or overheat ANYTHING, except perhaps the SMALLER ground cable on the opposite side of the engine which CAN'T carry the Amps the Starter draws.

OP, if you want to quickly Rule OUT the Engine Ground Strap, simply attach ONE jumper cable as a supplemental ground, between the (-) Jumpstart hex pin on the right wing/fender, and a substantial metal bolt/fitting on the engine block. That acts as an Additional Ground Strap, so if anything NOW works with that attached (such as the Starter) which did NOT work before, THEN get the car on ramps and inspect the ground strap at the left rear of engine next to the Starter Motor.

George
Dear gbalthrop , I have trust in my electrical knowledge. I am sorry that I have shared my experience here, I will try to stop it. In this case I will enlighten you. The world is not a perfect place. Physics are described and learned in perfect conditions. In the real world, a large diameter cable, such as a ground cable filled with corrosion will allow a variable amount of energy to pass though it. So don't look at it as working or not working. This variable amount of energy that is allowed to pass it's issue that causes the problems I have described above. A little educational video here, it applies to DC as well: https :// www .youtube. com/watch?reload=9&v=LMU9-GOjVRw

Now with some on topic info. Hayk90 If the P on your selector stays on, that means the car doesn't go to sleep and it is draining your battery. From all the information you have provided, what I can tell is that you might find some fishes in your car with a little hope. Remove the trims on the driver side that are holding your carpet, you also need to remove the chair's screws and raise the chair on its back and pull the carpet up. If there is no visible water, check the back of the carpet for moisture. In that area in the back left corner(the corner of the footrest) with your carpet raised you can see 2 connectors plugged in together. Unplug them and check for corrosion, and water. If I were in your place I would also check the FRM and JBBF connectors (both the wiring and the ecu's) for corrosion. The procedures I have mentioned will not probably fix your starting issue, but I suggest that you address them at this stage.

In my opinion the starting issue is related with the fuel injection in the piston chamber. This might happen due to 4 main issues:
1. dme-cas ews tempering
2. blocked injectors
3. bad dme
4. spark plugs covered with gasoline and carbon
5. bad/no power supply to the ignition coils.

I think, if you have a good battery supply and with a little starting spray (be careful as it might ignite while trying to start the car) and with you air inlet removed so you can spray directly in the chambers, the car will start.
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      05-26-2020, 05:51 PM   #21
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Hows the paint when its outside like that? Also why didnt anyone drive it
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      05-26-2020, 09:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icon2015 View Post
... I have trust in my electrical knowledge. [Does that knowledge include Ohm's Law (E=RI, or I=E/R)? Amps or Current flow = Volts/Resistance. If E (Voltage) is constant 12V, and R (Resistance is "Infinite" (open circuit) then Amps or Current Flow = 12 divided by "Infinity" = 0 (Zero current flow -- open circuit).]

I am sorry that I have shared my experience here, I will try to stop it. [Please don't "stop it". Personally, I have found your posts prior to this one to be very knowledgeable & helpful. I think you may NOT be looking at this correctly, and that is why I replied to your post. I'm was hoping that you were "science-based" and willing to re-examine a concept that seemed incorrect to me. This is NOT a "macho"/"Ego" contest, but a discussion of scientific concepts.]

In this case I will enlighten you. The world is not a perfect place. Physics are described and learned in perfect conditions. In the real world, a large diameter cable, such as a ground cable filled with corrosion will allow a variable amount of energy to pass though it. So don't look at it as working or not working. This variable amount of energy that is allowed to pass it's issue that causes the problems I have described above. A little educational video here, it applies to DC as well: https :// www .youtube. com/watch?reload=9&v=LMU9-GOjVRw [Pasting that URL returns NOT FOUND. If you are suggesting a "Voltage Spike" could occur with regard to the CAS Signal to the Starter Solenoid due to "intermittent fluctuation" in Resistance of the Ground Strap, I'm NOT aware of any such phenomenon ever reported. Unless there is a current storage (capacitor) in the circuit, the CAS can ONLY provide the current the designed resistance of the circuit allows 12V to provide, UNLESS there is a "Short-Circuit" in the system. A BAD Ground Strap ADDS resistance to the circuit (the OPPOSITE of a short circuit), meaning LESS current flows, NOT more.]...
The "Real World" is what Physics is based upon, and what it is used in. Physics and Mathematics got men to the moon & back by applied science that calculated trajectories, thrusts, momentum, etc. THAT was "Rocket Science" and automotive engineering, particularly as it relates to simple electrical circuits such as the Starter is NOT "Rocket Science", or anything unknown or mysterious.

IF I were to see something in the "Real World" that appears to NOT follow the basic "Laws of Physics", I would FIRST question MY CONCEPT of physics, rather than the "Physics Law" or formula itself, and then I would question my "application" of that law to the issue at hand.

Just a thought, NOT a sermon. Please keep contributing as you have. I'm sure I'm NOT the only person who appreciates, and has benefited from, your posts.

Thanks,
George
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