E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Anyone running 10w60 or 15w50 on n52 for track duty?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      06-11-2020, 12:11 PM   #1
slowcar
Banned
41
Rep
162
Posts

Drives: slow car
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: nyc

iTrader: (0)

Anyone running 10w60 or 15w50 on n52 for track duty?

For track duty, anyone here have experience running bmw 10w60 or 15w50?

Im guessing most of the oil burn is happening at sustained high revs, so thicker oil might help. Currently using castrol 0w40.
Appreciate 0
      08-17-2020, 12:22 AM   #2
chris82
Brigadier General
chris82's Avatar
United_States
605
Rep
3,596
Posts

Drives: 128i
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: NY NY

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
2009 BMW 128i  [5.00]
I ran 10w50 or 10w60 (forget which one) in my car at some point as I was going to a track event and said what the hell. Can't say I noticed any difference. In the end I just paid more money. Only did that once, back to running 5w40 castrol
Appreciate 0
      09-01-2020, 04:36 AM   #3
213e90n51
Captain
213e90n51's Avatar
South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
308
Rep
717
Posts

Drives: 2009 BMW 328i, Honda Civic Hat
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 328i  [0.00]
2019 M4  [0.00]
2019 Honda Civic Ha ...  [0.00]
I ran Liquidmoly 5w30 for my track day and my engine got rebuilt and bmw put in 0W30 for the fill. Got 4 autoX days and at least 15 hard runs in the canyons out of it. That was all in one year and now it has BMW 5W30 in it.
__________________
Eggz can be eaten Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner.
Appreciate 0
      09-17-2020, 01:24 AM   #4
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

If you are still looking at this thread, do not run anything 10W60 in N52. It will be too thick.
There are two things important with track/racing oils:
1. High Temperature High Shear (HTHS)
2. ZInc levels (ZDDP).

15W50 Mobil1 is track oil, but it is also on thicker side. 1300ppm Zinc is really good for track purposes.
Probably best option is Motul 5W40 Sport. But it is $56 for 5ltr on Amazon.
Another good option is Mobil1 0W40 FS as ZDDP level is 1100ppm.
BMW TPT 0W30 is really not good option for track. 5W30 is OK.
Appreciate 0
      09-17-2020, 03:20 AM   #5
Tambohamilton
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
695
Rep
1,887
Posts

Drives: E91 330d
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Wiltshire, UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
BMW TPT 0W30 is really not good option for track. 5W30 is OK.
Why/why not?
Appreciate 1
213e90n51308.00

      09-17-2020, 11:58 PM   #6
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Why/why not?
0W30 TPT is FE oil (Fuel efficiency). High Temperature High SHear (HTHS) is around 3, compared to TPT 5W30 which is around 3.6.
Since 0W30 is API SN oil, it means ZDDP levels are not above 900ppm. TPT 5W30 is loaded with ZDDP at around 1150ppm.
Take into consideration that BMW N engines run oil temperature at around 109c to 115c in normal driving. At that temperature 0W30 is actually turning into W20 oil.
IMO, on track, always W40 oil, but if one is going with W30, go TPT 5W30.
Appreciate 0
      09-18-2020, 01:58 AM   #7
Tambohamilton
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
695
Rep
1,887
Posts

Drives: E91 330d
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Wiltshire, UK

iTrader: (0)

great info!
Appreciate 0
      09-18-2020, 03:38 PM   #8
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
great info!
Also, TPT 5W30 is really stout stuff.
For example HTHS is 3.6, which is same HTHS of Mobil1 0W40 but KV100 is lower. That means base stock is really, really good.
That being said, I would personally run M1 0W40 over TPT 5W30 on track as it has more ZDDP and actually Mobil1 is targeting for customers that need oil for dual use, street and track.
Appreciate 1
bbnks2931.50

      10-04-2020, 12:25 PM   #9
Rebellato
New Member
Rebellato's Avatar
Brazil
6
Rep
10
Posts

Drives: 2008 130i MT
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Brasil

iTrader: (0)

Im running 5w40 motul 8100 excess - https://www.motul.com/br/en/products/8100-x-cess-5w40 - on my 130i since i got it, in 2017, and changed it twice a year.

Already did 6 trackdays, no issue at all, the oil temperature usually maxes at 266F, and the highest was 275F on a really hot day.

Is it ok?
__________________
2008 E87 130i MT - Quaife LSD, 1M LCAs, 1M swaybars, Bilstein B6, camber plates, E90 335i front brakes...
Appreciate 0
      10-07-2020, 01:21 AM   #10
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebellato View Post
Im running 5w40 motul 8100 excess - https://www.motul.com/br/en/products/8100-x-cess-5w40 - on my 130i since i got it, in 2017, and changed it twice a year.

Already did 6 trackdays, no issue at all, the oil temperature usually maxes at 266F, and the highest was 275F on a really hot day.

Is it ok?
Motul X-Cess is good oil. I am not particularly fan of that X-Cess as KV100 (kinematic viscosity at 100c) is bit high considering HTHS of 3.7 (HTHS is what you want on track).
Now, Motul has new X-Cess, Gen2 that has lower KV100 but higher HTHS.
On track you really want oil that has high HTHS (resistance of oil to temporary or permanent viscosity loss which happens behind piston rings, journal bearings etc). SHell Helix Ultra 5W40 has exceptional HTHS compared to KV100. But, also, you want oil that has high ZDDP (anti wear additive) and that would be Mobil1 0W40 of these regularly available oils.
Mobil1 actually advertises 0W40 as track capable oil.
Now, Motul has product specifically made for street and track use. If your car is out of warranty, you might be interested in Motul Sport 5W40. I am not sure whether they are carrying it in all markets, but it is available in the US.
For comparison, Spurt 5W40 has HTHS of 4cp. X-Cess has 3.7, while Mobil1 0W40 has 3.6.
You will be fine with X-Cess, but these are also options to consider.
Appreciate 2
      10-09-2020, 07:52 AM   #11
bbnks2
Lieutenant Colonel
932
Rep
1,934
Posts

Drives: 135i N55
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

wow wtf people who actually understand how oil works on this forum? I've had to explain hths to every person to ever ask about oil on here lol. Then they still didn't believe that crappy 40 weight oils can be "thinner" than a robust 30 weight oil in terms of dynamic viscosity. This is why LL-01 is so important because there won't be any LL-01 oils with such low HTHS ratings. Should all be 3.5+ I believe.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2020, 01:19 AM   #12
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
wow wtf people who actually understand how oil works on this forum? I've had to explain hths to every person to ever ask about oil on here lol. Then they still didn't believe that crappy 40 weight oils can be "thinner" than a robust 30 weight oil in terms of dynamic viscosity. This is why LL-01 is so important because there won't be any LL-01 oils with such low HTHS ratings. Should all be 3.5+ I believe.
Yes, LL01 base start is ACE A3/B3 B4 and HTHS is min. 3.5cp. LL01FE is 3cp.
LL04 is also min. 3.5cp as base start is ACEA C3.
But yes, most people do not understand how oils work. Also, composition of oil is important. While HTHS is very important, composition determines resistance to oxidation. If one is running on track oil in 130-140c range, crappy oil will deteriorate fast. I was last week on track, and my N52 runs super hot as track is at 5,000ft altitude and of course, cooling efficiency is not as good as at lower altitudes. I am running M1 0W40. Guy in 328 N52 that was on the track was running M1 10W40. Now, 10W40 has HTHS 3.9cp, but it has very little PAO in it. It is mostly hydrocracked GrIII base. M1 0W40 is 60% GTL, 30% PAO and 10% Esters. That means better resistance to oxidation, and also better heat dissipation characteristics.
STill, I have to install cooler
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2020, 01:41 PM   #13
bbnks2
Lieutenant Colonel
932
Rep
1,934
Posts

Drives: 135i N55
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: NY

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Yes, LL01 base start is ACE A3/B3 B4 and HTHS is min. 3.5cp. LL01FE is 3cp.
LL04 is also min. 3.5cp as base start is ACEA C3.
But yes, most people do not understand how oils work. Also, composition of oil is important. While HTHS is very important, composition determines resistance to oxidation. If one is running on track oil in 130-140c range, crappy oil will deteriorate fast. I was last week on track, and my N52 runs super hot as track is at 5,000ft altitude and of course, cooling efficiency is not as good as at lower altitudes. I am running M1 0W40. Guy in 328 N52 that was on the track was running M1 10W40. Now, 10W40 has HTHS 3.9cp, but it has very little PAO in it. It is mostly hydrocracked GrIII base. M1 0W40 is 60% GTL, 30% PAO and 10% Esters. That means better resistance to oxidation, and also better heat dissipation characteristics.
STill, I have to install cooler
Where did you get the oil base composition? I only know that the new mobile1 formulations supposedly don't test out as well as old formulation when it was Ll-01 approved (as per bitog posts). I still run Castrol Edge EU 0-40. Mostly because it's cheap and available on every shelf.

LL-01 also dictates extremely low NOACK %. Some of these other oils people recommend because they are "thicker" have much higher Noack which is no good for use in a hot turbo. BMW LL-01 is a tough standard to beat. It demands a high quality oil.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2020, 04:44 PM   #14
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbnks2 View Post
Where did you get the oil base composition? I only know that the new mobile1 formulations supposedly don't test out as well as old formulation when it was Ll-01 approved (as per bitog posts). I still run Castrol Edge EU 0-40. Mostly because it's cheap and available on every shelf.

LL-01 also dictates extremely low NOACK %. Some of these other oils people recommend because they are "thicker" have much higher Noack which is no good for use in a hot turbo. BMW LL-01 is a tough standard to beat. It demands a high quality oil.
It is in the Mobil1 MSDS.
LL01 dictates 13% Noack. MB229.5 is up to 10%. LL01 is actually not as stringent as MB229.5 or Porsche A40. However, where it is most stringent is oxidation requirements. Reason why 0W oil cannot meet LL01 is oxidation is that due to high HTHS requirement they are all heavy W30 (for example Castrol Edge 0W30) or light W40 (M1 0W40, Valvoline, Pennzoil). Due to the nature of those oils, Esters are often used or some lower quality oils use a lot of viscosity improvers. In both cases oils are naturally acidic which makes them non compliant to new LL01 update (2018). The reason why LL01 and LL04 were updated is new engine test (N20). Previous LL01 were based on N52. N20 also has specific test for timing chain due to issues with that engine. In reality, N51, 52, 54 and 55 owners could use ANY oil that is approved for MB229.5.
Appreciate 0
      10-13-2020, 06:16 PM   #15
Tambohamilton
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
695
Rep
1,887
Posts

Drives: E91 330d
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Wiltshire, UK

iTrader: (0)

Ran across this handy tool for getting a overview comparison of oil standards/certifications a while ago:
https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubrican...rformance-Tool
Appreciate 1
bbnks2931.50

      10-15-2020, 01:46 AM   #16
edycol
New Member
5
Rep
11
Posts

Drives: 2011 328i xDrive
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Colorado Springs

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tambohamilton View Post
Ran across this handy tool for getting a overview comparison of oil standards/certifications a while ago:
https://www.lubrizol.com/en/Lubrican...rformance-Tool
Yes, it is good tool, but does not tell everything.
It is handy to get overall picture where standards are.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:36 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST