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      07-14-2019, 12:29 AM   #1
skyblue90
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Car dies while driving, random no start's

I have a 2009 335i and its been acting very strange recently. I have seen a variety of behavior in the past 2-3 days, for example, it died (all electronics went black) for about 2 seconds while going 60 mph and then everything turned back on. It has also died at lower speeds (that time I had to actually start the car back up), and sometimes if I park and later try to start the car back up, all the electronics go black.

I know there was a recall for the power cable on the car and I took it apart a bit and sure enough, I saw the splice in my power cable where the recall was performed. I don't think this problem is related to that though. I know its not my battery either because it hovers around 12.5 volts and I load tested it and everything seems to be in order. Its not my alternator because I get around 13.6-13.9 volts when the car is turned on.

The weird thing is, when my car is won't start, sometimes if I wait 2-3 minutes and try again, it will start up. I have also had luck going in the trunk and disconnecting/reconnecting the negative terminal to start it.

I was thinking maybe I have a bad ground connection, but thought I'd post here and see if anyone has more knowledge regarding these types of issues.
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      07-14-2019, 01:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
I have a 2009 335i and its been acting very strange recently. I have seen a variety of behavior in the past 2-3 days, for example, it died (all electronics went black) for about 2 seconds while going 60 mph and then everything turned back on. It has also died at lower speeds (that time I had to actually start the car back up), and sometimes if I park and later try to start the car back up, all the electronics go black.

I know there was a recall for the power cable on the car and I took it apart a bit and sure enough, I saw the splice in my power cable where the recall was performed. I don't think this problem is related to that though. I know its not my battery either because it hovers around 12.5 volts and I load tested it and everything seems to be in order. Its not my alternator because I get around 13.6-13.9 volts when the car is turned on.

The weird thing is, when my car is won't start, sometimes if I wait 2-3 minutes and try again, it will start up. I have also had luck going in the trunk and disconnecting/reconnecting the negative terminal to start it.

I was thinking maybe I have a bad ground connection, but thought I'd post here and see if anyone has more knowledge regarding these types of issues.
Sounds like the power cable issue to me. I have seen quite a few cars now which have had the recall done, but the person doing the job has failed to tighten the clamping screw up sufficiently, causing a poor connection. Next time the issue is occurring, have a feel of the fuse box in the area that i have circled in the picture. That is where the cable connects to the power distribution box. If it is hot then it will be a poor connection there.
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      07-14-2019, 02:18 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
Sounds like the power cable issue to me. I have seen quite a few cars now which have had the recall done, but the person doing the job has failed to tighten the clamping screw up sufficiently, causing a poor connection. Next time the issue is occurring, have a feel of the fuse box in the area that i have circled in the picture. That is where the cable connects to the power distribution box. If it is hot then it will be a poor connection there.
I read about the possible loose clamping screw as well and so I turned the car on and shook the power cable that goes to the fuse box vigorously but nothing happened. I figured it wasn't my issue because if it was loose, shouldn't the shaking have intermittently messed with my electronics? Either way, I will feel for hotness in the area you posted next time it happens.

Its just weird that disconnecting/reconnecting my negative terminal turns my electronics back on when it happens.
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      07-14-2019, 02:49 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
I read about the possible loose clamping screw as well and so I turned the car on and shook the power cable that goes to the fuse box vigorously but nothing happened. I figured it wasn't my issue because if it was loose, shouldn't the shaking have intermittently messed with my electronics? Either way, I will feel for hotness in the area you posted next time it happens.

Its just weird that disconnecting/reconnecting my negative terminal turns my electronics back on when it happens.
Definitely check that area of the fuse box to be sure. Failing that, it could be the engine earth strap. It is quite prone to corrosion. Have you checked that?
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      07-14-2019, 02:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
Definitely check that area of the fuse box to be sure. Failing that, it could be the engine earth strap. It is quite prone to corrosion. Have you checked that?
I haven't checked the engine earth strap, that ones under the car right?
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      07-14-2019, 03:03 AM   #6
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Also check the main earth cable that goes from the battery negative to the body inside the trunk. Have seen that loose before.
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      07-14-2019, 03:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
Definitely check that area of the fuse box to be sure. Failing that, it could be the engine earth strap. It is quite prone to corrosion. Have you checked that?
I had the problem with the power cable but I fixed it in the past. There was some buildup on the terminal and I sanded it down so that cable could fit on completely. I do think a fuse has blown cause i was hearing a clicking in the fuse box when I tried to start the car. Ill also check the ground strap because heat is most likely the cause as I was running the car HARD at over 100 degrees.

Last edited by 320IN54; 07-14-2019 at 03:10 AM..
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      07-14-2019, 03:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
I haven't checked the engine earth strap, that ones under the car right?
There's one that goes from the RH strut tower area to the valve cover. There's another one underneath the car also. It's on the LH side on RHD cars. Not sure about LHD though sorry. Pretty sure you'll find threads about them on here if you search for engine earth cable or similar.
Another thing that is often overlooked is the condition of the battery terminal posts and the battery cable clamps. Make sure they are very clean. If in doubt clean them so they ate nice and shiny, and pay special attention to the inside face of the clamps where they come into contact with the battery posts

Last edited by N52bigblock; 07-14-2019 at 03:30 AM..
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      07-14-2019, 03:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
There's one that goes from the RH strut tower area to the valve cover. There's another one underneath the car also. It's on the LH side on RHD cars. Not sure about LHD though sorry. Pretty sure you'll find threads about them on here if you search for engine earth cable or similar.
Another thing that is often overlooked is the condition of the battery terminal posts and the battery cable clamps. Make sure they are very clean. If in doubt clean them so they ate nice and shiny, and pay special attention to the inside face of the clamps where they come into contact with the battery posts
Ok, ill look at these other possibilities, hopefully I can find the root cause. Thanks!
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      07-14-2019, 05:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
Also check the main earth cable that goes from the battery negative to the body inside the trunk. Have seen that loose before.
+1
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      07-14-2019, 09:20 AM   #11
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Alternator ?
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      07-14-2019, 03:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mweisdorfer View Post
Alternator ?
The voltage when the car is running makes me think its working. Unless its intermittently faulty but then that doesn't explain why the car won't start and I can suddenly fix it with the negative terminal.
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      07-14-2019, 07:23 PM   #13
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Update: replaced the battery, the old one appears to have been bulging? Car seems to be running better. Hopefully it doesn't die again!
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      07-17-2019, 12:20 AM   #14
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Update: Issue is likely fixed, for anyone encountering this issue in the future, check your battery for bulging or weird signs because my battery appeared to be fine.
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      07-17-2019, 03:25 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
Update: Issue is likely fixed, for anyone encountering this issue in the future, check your battery for bulging or weird signs because my battery appeared to be fine.
Good to hear. I have seen batteries bulge before. Not sure what causes it but my opinion is it is sulphation building up on the plates inside the battery and pushing out against the casing. How old was the battery? Was it genuine BMW?
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      07-17-2019, 08:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
Update: Issue is likely fixed, for anyone encountering this issue in the future, check your battery for bulging or weird signs because my battery appeared to be fine.
Thanks for the update just FYI because i just read your thread.

For you and anyone who keeps saying battery is fine because i measured the 12.5V. Thats not how a battery is measured. It has to be measured when its under load When is a battery under highest load?. The highest load is when ur cranking. ( Drawing most current)

You can get a min max DMM (multimeter) and run it during cranking and record lowest voltage drop. Ideally should not go lower than 9.7V.

In this case a battery will appear fine under no load, then when its under a little more stress it can collapse to below 8V and shut everything.

There are meters that will load a battery and test is response curve but are not really needed for when a battery is really bad.
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      07-17-2019, 11:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
Update: replaced the battery, the old one appears to have been bulging? Car seems to be running better. Hopefully it doesn't die again!
Did YOU change the battery, or did you have a shop do it?
Did you/shop note any loose or corroded connections at battery terminals or chassis ground?
Did you/shop check for battery acid or water in the battery well?
Did you/shop check for corrosion of the "Transfer Points" forward of battery?
Did you/shop scan DME & CAS for any Fault Codes?
WHAT WERE those FAULT CODES???
Did you/shop test old battery in any way, and if so what tests & results?
Did ANY warning lamps/icons ever appear on the Instrument Cluster before or after a "shutdown" incident?

I have seen batteries "flunk" an in-car "Load Test" where battery voltage read 12.5V or more with a voltmeter, but just clicked the Starter Solenoid and then showed ~ 10V instead of 12V+. That behavior is due to an internal fault or "Bad Cell" where once the voltage has dropped from the application of Load (Starter Cranking) the battery does NOT recover on its own and then crank the starter. You CAN recharge it and get a 12V+ voltage reading, but as soon as you apply load again, the same thing happens -- Starter won't crank and voltage drops to 10V range.

I'm NOT guaranteeing that a faulty battery can't possibly fail for several seconds and then work again, but I can't imagine that happening if you are cruising at 60, with alternator operating and suddenly "all electronics went black" for several seconds, with normal operation returning after several seconds. What I CAN state is that in 55+ years of maintaining my own vehicles, I have NEVER seen such a thing, and I have NOT seen any scientifically-explained reported case of a battery causing such a thing.

ANY loose B+ connection, or ground connection COULD cause such behavior. Also a bulging battery case suggests internal pressure, possibly from "Over-voltage" or system voltage in excess of 15V overheating the battery internally and "boiling battery acid.You can monitor System Voltage as you drive using "Hidden Menu 9.00". That is why I asked about liquid in the battery well, and condition of the "Transfer Points."

In short, a "bulging battery" which still cranks the Starter is likely to be a symptom of a "yet-unidentified" fault rather than the CAUSE of the "shutdown." You risk damage to expensive Electronic Modules if there is an intermittent "disconnection" of the battery while the engine is running, due to a loose B+ or Ground connection.

Please get codes read in DME at least (Generic P-Code reader at Advance Auto, etc.), and preferably ALSO in CAS module, and let us know the result of that Scan.

George
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      07-18-2019, 03:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pladi View Post
Thanks for the update just FYI because i just read your thread.

For you and anyone who keeps saying battery is fine because i measured the 12.5V. Thats not how a battery is measured. It has to be measured when its under load When is a battery under highest load?. The highest load is when ur cranking. ( Drawing most current)

You can get a min max DMM (multimeter) and run it during cranking and record lowest voltage drop. Ideally should not go lower than 9.7V.

In this case a battery will appear fine under no load, then when its under a little more stress it can collapse to below 8V and shut everything.

There are meters that will load a battery and test is response curve but are not really needed for when a battery is really bad.
I actually did load test it with a special meter several times. In one case all the electronics shut off as soon as I flipped the switch and the other times the battery read around 9.5-10V so I was kind of confused.
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      07-18-2019, 03:39 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Did YOU change the battery, or did you have a shop do it?
Did you/shop note any loose or corroded connections at battery terminals or chassis ground?
Did you/shop check for battery acid or water in the battery well?
Did you/shop check for corrosion of the "Transfer Points" forward of battery?
Did you/shop scan DME & CAS for any Fault Codes?
WHAT WERE those FAULT CODES???
Did you/shop test old battery in any way, and if so what tests & results?
Did ANY warning lamps/icons ever appear on the Instrument Cluster before or after a "shutdown" incident?

I have seen batteries "flunk" an in-car "Load Test" where battery voltage read 12.5V or more with a voltmeter, but just clicked the Starter Solenoid and then showed ~ 10V instead of 12V+. That behavior is due to an internal fault or "Bad Cell" where once the voltage has dropped from the application of Load (Starter Cranking) the battery does NOT recover on its own and then crank the starter. You CAN recharge it and get a 12V+ voltage reading, but as soon as you apply load again, the same thing happens -- Starter won't crank and voltage drops to 10V range.

I'm NOT guaranteeing that a faulty battery can't possibly fail for several seconds and then work again, but I can't imagine that happening if you are cruising at 60, with alternator operating and suddenly "all electronics went black" for several seconds, with normal operation returning after several seconds. What I CAN state is that in 55+ years of maintaining my own vehicles, I have NEVER seen such a thing, and I have NOT seen any scientifically-explained reported case of a battery causing such a thing.

ANY loose B+ connection, or ground connection COULD cause such behavior. Also a bulging battery case suggests internal pressure, possibly from "Over-voltage" or system voltage in excess of 15V overheating the battery internally and "boiling battery acid.You can monitor System Voltage as you drive using "Hidden Menu 9.00". That is why I asked about liquid in the battery well, and condition of the "Transfer Points."

In short, a "bulging battery" which still cranks the Starter is likely to be a symptom of a "yet-unidentified" fault rather than the CAUSE of the "shutdown." You risk damage to expensive Electronic Modules if there is an intermittent "disconnection" of the battery while the engine is running, due to a loose B+ or Ground connection.

Please get codes read in DME at least (Generic P-Code reader at Advance Auto, etc.), and preferably ALSO in CAS module, and let us know the result of that Scan.

George
I changed and coded/registered the battery myself. I got no warning lights on dashboard before/after and I did do most of the things you mentioned including voltage & load test on the battery (seemed ok). The bulging was likely a result of a previous voltage regulator problem I had on the alternator (I should have replaced the battery then). I don't have an explanation for the highway incident, do you know if E90's perhaps shut the car off if the battery disconnects even if the alternator is running?

I also did the hidden menu trick to monitor the voltage while driving and it hovered around 13.6-14. I got all these codes from the DME after it shut off:
CDA9, CDA8, CDA6, CDA0, CD9F, CD95, CD94, 2F4C, 2DEC, 2DC3, 2C9E, 2C73, 2AB4.

The problem was very consistent (would almost always shut off electronics when starting the car the first time) and I haven't seen anything weird since replacing the battery so i'm hopeful its gone.
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      07-18-2019, 03:42 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neilj35 View Post
Good to hear. I have seen batteries bulge before. Not sure what causes it but my opinion is it is sulphation building up on the plates inside the battery and pushing out against the casing. How old was the battery? Was it genuine BMW?
Not sure how old the battery was as i'm the second owner and only had the car about 6 months, definitely not genuine BMW though.
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      07-18-2019, 11:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyblue90 View Post
...The bulging was likely a result of a previous voltage regulator problem I had on the alternator (I should have replaced the battery then). [Was there a "light show" on instrument cluster when "previous voltage regulator problem" occurred, and/or did you get any indication of "Over-voltage" (voltage > 15.0V) THEN? -- If so, I would agree]
I don't have an explanation for the highway incident, do you know if E90's perhaps shut the car off if the battery disconnects even if the alternator is running? [I can't immediately see any reason why ALL power to everything in the car would be shut off to protect against overvoltage if battery "disconnected," AND there is no specific code suggesting battery "disconnected."]

I also did the hidden menu trick to monitor the voltage while driving and it hovered around 13.6-14. I got all these codes from the DME after it shut off:
CDA9, CDA8, CDA6, CDA0, CD9F, CD95, CD94, 2F4C, 2DEC, 2DC3, 2C9E, 2C73, 2AB4. [Did you get FF Data to determine mileage at which those occurred? Most are "communication" faults related to DME NOT receiving messages from other components: CAS, EKP, KOMBI, IHKA, DSC, EWS; ALSO probably UN-related Post-cat O2 sensor fault codes (3). Just curious if those were from last few days, or left over from prior Voltage Regulator issue?]

The problem was very consistent (would almost always shut off electronics when starting the car the first time) and I haven't seen anything weird since replacing the battery so i'm hopeful its gone.
I'm confused as to whether your old/bulging battery passed or failed Load Tests. You seem to indicate "Failed" in Post #18 and "Passed" in Post #19. If it DID Fail a Load Test, did it thereafter "recover" on its own, without recharging, and Pass the same Load Test? If so, that would seem to account for the Battery ALONE causing the symptoms you describe.

Based upon everything you've posted here, there likely WAS an internal fault in the battery which caused intermittent shutdown, possibly related to internal battery temperature, and if there was a prior "Over-voltage" situation due to faulty Voltage Regulator, that was likely a primary contributing factor.

I had just never seen a battery shut down for a second or two and then recover without recharging, so I am trying to learn from your experience. Was the old battery AGM or FLA?

The two codes from the group you listed that seem most relevant (Bentley Definitions -- NOTE 2 different definitions for "2DEC", & 4 different Definitions for "2DC3"; check P-code or the definition provided by YOUR Scan Tool):
P160A | 2DEC | Powermanagement Exhaustive Discharge
P160B | 2DEC | Powermanagement Defective
P15B0 | 2DC3 | Terminal 15 Sense Circuit Input High
P15B1 | 2DC3 | Terminal 15 Sense Circuit Input Low
P15B2 | 2DC3 | Terminal 15 Sense Circuit CAS Error
P15B3 | 2DC3 | Terminal 15 Sense Circuit Range / Performance

BMW Fault Code Lookup Definitions:
2DEC | DME: Power management, battery | msd80
2DC3 | DME: Monitoring, terminal 15 | msd80

Thanks for sharing your info so we can learn something,
George
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      02-05-2021, 10:42 PM   #22
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Stopped driving the 2008 335i regularly and time resets on every start. Inpa codes point to potentially a bigger issue:

0x2E8D Intelligent battery sensor, signal transmission / P151A battery sensor terminal 15/30 wakeup malfunction

0x2DC3 Monitoring of terminal 15 / P15B2 Terminal 15 monitoring circuit - CAS (Car Access System)

Same codes point to IBS as discussed here: https://www.bimmerfest.com/threads/i...-help.1258336/

Battery is 6 years old, will likely start from replacing
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