[digivue]

Any way to avoid paying these? I was quoted for $560 for those...

[thisguyhere]

same here, went ahead and paid it. sucks

[LionRampant]

Originally Posted by digivue

Any way to avoid paying these? I was quoted for $560 for those...

That's about right for those charges, and I believe they are non-negotiable.

--LR

[celticsfan]

i didn't have to pay it. And a friend of mine who bought a bmw 2 years ago didn't have to as well. You can negotiate with them to have those fees taken out. good luck.

[digivue]

Originally Posted by celticsfan

i didn't have to pay it. And a friend of mine who bought a bmw 2 years ago didn't have to as well. You can negotiate with them to have those fees taken out. good luck.

I heard the only case you pay don't have to pay them when you pay MSRP. Was that the case?

[Kilgore Trout]

There are two ways of negotiating a deal. One is to say "I will give you X dollars, including all fees." In this case, you have a final price, and there shouldn't be anything else added afterwards (except taxes and registration fees, of course). So, if you tell a dealer you are willing to pay $40,000 inclusive of all fees, then there shouldn't be any add-ons like MACO.

A second way of negotiating is to say "I will give you X dollars above invoice." In that case, the $180 training fee and advertising fee (MACO) are part of the dealer's invoice price and you will have to pay them. The idea is that you paying the deal X dollars above what he pays. If he is paying BMW MACO fees, then it is part of his invoice.

Personally, I've never felt good about this sort of crap. Advertising is part of a dealer's cost of doing buisness - and I don't see why I should be expected to cover it. But, that is the way it is.

[digivue]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Personally, I've never felt good about this sort of crap. Advertising is part of a dealer's cost of doing buisness - and I don't see why I should be expected to cover it. But, that is the way it is.

Totally agree with that.

[celticsfan]

Originally Posted by digivue

I heard the only case you pay don't have to pay them when you pay MSRP. Was that the case?

I negotiated the final cost of the car with the options that i wanted, which was $43,500. So the only fees added on to that was tax, tile, and reg. Some dealers that I talked to did want to charge the MACO and training fee but I told them I don't want to pay it or else I'll find another dealer. There are dealers out there that won't charge you those fees.

[Sal@AUTOcouture]

Everyone,

You need to understand that the MACO and training are not fee's added to increase the price for the customer. They are fees that LOWER the profit margin for dealers. I've seen lots of misleading information on the forum and this thread specifically made me post. The MACO and training are added to our invoice. They are PART of the invoice price no way around it, just how it is.

[fizzle]

Originally Posted by AutoCouture

Everyone,

You need to understand that the MACO and training are not fee's added to increase the price for the customer. They are fees that LOWER the profit margin for dealers. I've seen lots of misleading information on the forum and this thread specifically made me post. The MACO and training are added to our invoice. They are PART of the invoice price.

+1 people you are buying a BMW stop being so f'n cheap.

[digivue]

Originally Posted by AutoCouture

Everyone,

You need to understand that the MACO and training are not fee's added to increase the price for the customer. They are fees that LOWER the profit margin for dealers. I've seen lots of misleading information on the forum and this thread specifically made me post. The MACO and training are added to our invoice. They are PART of the invoice price no way around it, just how it is.

Actually, it seems they are not, because I negotiated a price over invoice and it was added on top.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by digivue

Actually, it seems they are not, because I negotiated a price over invoice and it was added on top.

doesn't matter how you negotiate it, the maco & trainging fees are still, they still reduce the profit margin for the dealer. Certain regions do not have maco, but most do & all have the training fee.

If you say "$40k otd" taxes and all. M & T are still there. If you negotiate over invoice, it is part of the invoice.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by dbtheo

doesn't matter how you negotiate it, the maco & trainging fees are still, they still reduce the profit margin for the dealer. Certain regions do not have maco, but most do & all have the training fee.

If you say "$40k otd" taxes and all. M & T are still there. If you negotiate over invoice, it is part of the invoice.

I'll disagree. If you negotiate an out-the-door price, the dealer doesn't get to add a bunch of fees that cover different costs he is experiencing. The price you negotiated is the price you pay - no extra fees should be tolerated.

If you negotiate (as I did) X$ above invoice, and MACO/Training fee are part of invoice, it is reasonable to expect to pay it.

[JackMac]

A $180 Training Service Fee was recently added to be part of base invoice pricing. It was not there a few years ago. So if you negotiate xxx over invoice, then that is already included in the calculation.

Regarding MACO, I have never ever paid such a fee. That must be specific to certain dealerships or markets.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

I'll disagree. If you negotiate an out-the-door price, the dealer doesn't get to add a bunch of fees that cover different costs he is experiencing. The price you negotiated is the price you pay - no extra fees should be tolerated.

If you negotiate (as I did) X$ above invoice, and MACO/Training fee are part of invoice, it is reasonable to expect to pay it.

You are free to disagree all you want, doesn't change the facts though. As a dealer, I can very much say that the fees are still there, you just don't see them. If you pay full msrp, it's still there, doesn't matter, it's still there. The fees are just simply part of the invoice, we didn't add them as dealer. Let's say you build a car using a wholesale sheet/ edmunds, what ever.

Lets say you get an "invoice" of $36,000 & an MSRP of $41,000. On that very same car, BMWNA will create an invoice that will show MACO (for our region) of $250 & traning fee of $180. So our true invoice is actually $36,430. No matter what the final selling price is, no matter what the otd price is, our invoice will still be $36,430.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by JackMac

A $180 Training Service Fee was recently added to be part of base invoice pricing. It was not there a few years ago. So if you negotiate xxx over invoice, then that is already included in the calculation.

Regarding MACO, I have never ever paid such a fee. That must be specific to certain dealerships or markets.

It is specific to markets/ regions. Training fee is for all.

[yogi4]

Originally Posted by digivue

Any way to avoid paying these? I was quoted for $560 for those...

I checked with many dealers and 90 % of them charge MACO + training fee . However the charges depend on the region of your dealership. Around chicago it's around 200 + 180

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by dbtheo

You are free to disagree all you want, doesn't change the facts though. As a dealer, I can very much say that the fees are still there, you just don't see them. If you pay full msrp, it's still there, doesn't matter, it's still there. The fees are just simply part of the invoice, we didn't add them as dealer. Let's say you build a car using a wholesale sheet/ edmunds, what ever.

Lets say you get an "invoice" of $36,000 & an MSRP of $41,000. On that very same car, BMWNA will create an invoice that will show MACO (for our region) of $250 & traning fee of $180. So our true invoice is actually $36,430. No matter what the final selling price is, no matter what the otd price is, our invoice will still be $36,430.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I don't think you are following what I am saying. I wasn't trying to say the fees weren't "still there." I'm only talking about situations under which the buyers is formally told "This is MACO - and you must pay it."

I personally negotiated a price above invoice. The dealer then gave me a printout that has his invoice - and it also had lines for $180, and MACO. So, his total invoice is the published wholesale value of the car and $180 and MACO. Given that I said I'd give him roughly $1000 over invoice, the dealer should expect me to pay $1000 + Wholesale cost of car + $180 + MACO. The fees are non-negotiable in this situation because our deal was for cost + $1000, and MACO is a legitimate part of cost.

It would be an entirely different situation if I went in to the dealer and said "regardless of what the car costs you, I am willing to pay $45,000 out the door - inclusive of all fees." In that case, the price I pay is $45,000 NOT $45,000 + $180 + MACO.

The training fees and MACO are only visible to the consumer as contributing to the cost when it is a negotiated price above invoice. If you negotiate an absolute dollar amount, the dealer doesn't get to add any additional fees later. Of course, MACO will figured into what the dealer is willing to give you the car for under that circumstance.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by JackMac

A $180 Training Service Fee was recently added to be part of base invoice pricing. It was not there a few years ago. So if you negotiate xxx over invoice, then that is already included in the calculation.

Regarding MACO, I have never ever paid such a fee. That must be specific to certain dealerships or markets.

Most of the wholesale prices listed at EDMUNDs, the various .pdfs floating around here, and ConsumerGuide do not include the training fee or MACO. I think that is what leads to some of the confusion.

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

The training fees and MACO are only visible to the consumer as contributing to the cost when it is a negotiated price above invoice. If you negotiate an absolute dollar amount, of course, MACO will figured into what the dealer is willing to give you the car for under that circumstance.

I understood what you were saying, (and I'm not arguing either) I was more or less trying to clarify for people that maco & training aren't just simply fees added at any given time.

fyi; the above statement is bang on

[dbtheo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Most of the wholesale prices listed at EDMUNDs, the various .pdfs floating around here, and ConsumerGuide do not include the training fee or MACO. I think that is what leads to some of the confusion.

+1000

and of course they really can't add them, with the range of maco fees being different.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by dbtheo

I understood what you were saying, (and I'm not arguing either) I was more or less trying to clarify for people that maco & training aren't just simply fees added at any given time.

fyi; the above statement is bang on

OK, dbtheo. I hope I didn't come across as too oppositional. I appreciate the attempt to clarify though.