[tkillips]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Im sure there will be plenty of reviews very soon !

How soon are you thinkin? Looking to pick up some DPs myself and I'm curious how this product will play out

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Im not offended. Just dont want people speculating thing. I am not the type to talk crap about another vendor. Im sure AR makes a good product as does other vendors.

The discussion of Chinese made vs American made to me personally is irrelavent. Quaility is not a factor of orgin but of the person/company doing the work. Just because something is made in America does not mean it will be of the best quaility. I have seen many products made in the US that have poor quaility. I am all for supporting the US economy, however, you cannot ignore the concept of globalization.

Even BMW has parts being manufactured in China, india,...ect.

We inspect all our products throughly and ensure that quality is at the highest standard. Im sure everyone will be surprised at the quaility and fitment. It took us so long because we continued to test the downpipes.

I can't vouch for the quality, but I agree with that statement 100%. Who cares where it's made, as long as it's good quality. I think the bottom line should be the only thing that matters. Look forward to seeing some of those VK reviews.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by cu_north

Regardless of how large a DP is or where its made I think we can all agree the profit margins on a piece of pipe are through the roof.

LOL, you're not even close

There are 8 hours of labor that go into each set alone. Flanges are CNC cut from raw 304 stainless. Each section/bend of downpipe is fitted by hand. We dont bang these out for $50 in 20 minutes.

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Thats what they are. 5" of combined diameter is more than enough for these little snails.

Two 2.5" tubes do not equal the flow of a single 5" tube. I am not sure if that is what you were implying, but not very clear.

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Our orginal set was a 3inch tapering to a 2.5 right before the flange. We also tested the 2.5 inch the way we have it now. We did not see any gains with one over the other. The bottom line is that ALL the current downpipes are going to be 2.5inches at the flange. Please wait to have them first before you start saying that these are not high quality.

I'd love to see your test data on this - as well as the prototype pics you promised us long ago to prove you didn't rip off Ultimate Racings design.....

Originally Posted by AutoCouture

there probably a reason for that

There is. A lot of the welds I have seen recently look non-backpurged, cold, and have been ground down, which greatly weakens them. I feel the quality of our materials is top shelf, and the workmanship speaks for itself.

In the end, you always get what you pay for.

[orionredwing]

Manufacturing in China can be just as good as anywhere else in the world. Because of the large variance in skilled labor, and process controls between manufacturers, you can find very good and very poorly made products.

Back in the 80s and 90s, there was a big knowledge gap, and China did not have the modern process controls that they have today.

In the end, it's up to each vendor to qualify their source and perform proper QC. If that's done, the argument of China vs Made in the U.S.A. is irrelevant.

I come from 10+ yrs of experience in Operations / Mfg Eng Mgmt, and the last few years have been spent transitioning products from Silicon Valley to low-cost regions.

(I personally bought AR's downpipes, but am getting into the VK FMIC group buy, so am not pro-specific vendor. I just want a quality product, which both vendors deliver.)

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by ar design

LOL, you're not even close

There are 8 hours of labor that go into each set alone. Flanges are CNC cut from raw 304 stainless. Each section/bend of downpipe is fitted by hand. We dont bang these out for $50 in 20 minutes.



Two 2.5" tubes do not equal the flow of a single 5" tube. I am not sure if that is what you were implying, but not very clear.



I'd love to see your test data on this - as well as the prototype pics you promised us long ago to prove you didn't rip off Ultimate Racings design.....



There is. A lot of the welds I have seen recently look non-backpurged, cold, and have been ground down, which greatly weakens them. I feel the quality of our materials is top shelf, and the workmanship speaks for itself.

In the end, you always get what you pay for.

1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3” system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5” system.

2) So your telling me UR didn’t just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? That’s what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone else’s it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I don’t know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I don’t have anything against you or your company. I don’t ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you don’t want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince

[brianhn1]

Probably made in India right?

[cali_guy]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Andrew, I don’t know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I don’t have anything against you or your company. I don’t ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you don’t want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by brianhn1

Probably made in India right?

Mmmmmuuahhhhaaaahahahahaha . No india seems to be more into casting and making dyes, tech support, and my favorite solicitation calls.

I get so disappointed when I pick up the phone, I always think its a distant relative or something.

[mmmotornutz]

Wow vendor lashes sure are tolerated on this site

[Yachimoto]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3” system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5” system.

2) So your telling me UR didn’t just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? That’s what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone else’s it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I don’t know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I don’t have anything against you or your company. I don’t ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you don’t want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince

[brianhn1]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

Mmmmmuuahhhhaaaahahahahaha . No india seems to be more into casting and making dyes, tech support, and my favorite solicitation calls.

I get so disappointed when I pick up the phone, I always think its a distant relative or something.

LOL I do have stuff made in India, and you're right casting is one of their pluses.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

1)Are you saying that the downpipes going from 3" inches then abruptly going to a 2.5" at the flange is better then 2.5" through out so much so that it would clearly deliver more power? If anything you going to generate more back pressure by increasing the amount of air volume before the bottleneck. Unless you are changing the exhaust and having a full 3” system from the turbo back your still going to have a 2.5” system.

2) So your telling me UR didn’t just take the stock downpipes and remove the cats? That’s what we did, you can literally put our downpipes on the stock ones and see for yourself. Besides why do you think that there is a need for me to justify anything to you? What benefit is there for me?

3) I love your last comment, So let me get this straight, the more you charge the better your product magically becomes? With your logic if I over price my product above everyone else’s it automatically better. So if you charge $800 I should charge $850 and you will say my downpipes are better?

Andrew, I don’t know why you constantly have to talk down every other vendor who is selling similar products as you so you can make yourself look better. Understand I don’t have anything against you or your company. I don’t ever come after your stuff or try to find flaws in your design and you don’t want me to either. Just keep to your shit and mind your business. Regardless what either one of us sell we are going to have our own markets.

Best regards.

-Vince

1. You made a statement. Just asking you to back it up, since you claim to have done testing, you should have data.

2. Again, you made a claim. Just asking you to back it up.

3. Quality materials always cost more. Quality labor always cost more. So you always get what you pay for.

Im not here to talk you down. I am asking you to provide data to back up your statements. Nothing more.

[scheherazade]

UR is a great example of pricing...



UR apparently thinks a down pipe should cost $150 per tube...
That's what a single pipe evo down pipe costs.

http://www.lancershop.com/customer/p...&cat=67&page=1

So they should be charging around $300 for a set of 335 down pipes...



...



WHOOPS!

http://www.335ishop.com/335i/Ultimat...e-E9-p-38.html

Looks like UR's retail is 2X what they charge *per-pipe* compared to the UR evo DP.
(Retail : $600 for 2, vs $150 for 1)
(MSRP : 3X, $900 for 2 vs $150 for 1)






BMW market is BMW market.
1) Not the sales volume of a honda/DSM
2) Plenty of buyers with more $ than brains
3) Plenty of buyers that equate quality with price.
So you just pay more for the same thing.

In the end, every business runs things their own way.
AR produces pipes by hand, in the U.S..
Like they said... they pay someone 8 hours of labor per pipe.

U.S. worker needs to pay U.S. bills and needs a U.S. salary, which necessitates a higher price.

8 Hours U.S. labor, at lets say $35/hour for a fabricator, is almost $300 in salary alone.

Everyone has to decide for themselves who they want to pay for making their products.

And keep in mind that 'cheap' here is not going to be 'cheap' where it's made - money has different value in different places.

-scheherazade

[ar design]

Originally Posted by scheherazade

UR is a great example of pricing...



UR apparently thinks a down pipe should cost $150 per tube...
That's what a single pipe evo down pipe costs.

In URs defense, the Evo downpipe looks a bit simpler, and does not have the V-Band flange. Getting those flanges cut is NOT cheap

[vbmw335]

How about Walmart? Majority of their products are made in China...but buying products from there feeds many US workers and communites.

Its a global world ...guys wake up!! The key is as long as the products add value , and delivers ...everyone wins. This debate never gets old...its been on for a century now...lol

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by ar design

In URs defense, the Evo downpipe looks a bit simpler, and does not have the V-Band flange. Getting those flanges cut is NOT cheap

Not $150 vs $300 dollars simpler.

Case in point :

Perrin STI downpipe
- High Flow Cat ($cha-ching$)
- Complicated mating end ($cha-ching$)

http://www.jscspeed.com/wrx/uppipedo...wnpipe_cat.htm

$300 dollars per pipe.

Which brings it in-line with the cost of a *SINGLE* basic catless 335 DP.

-scheherazade

[Vince@ V K Motorwerks]

So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument. People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument. People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.

this is exactly what i like about your company and what it stands for... not charging an arm and a leg because we drive bmws.... you make a product, make some money on it and still deliver it to us at a killer price..

no Bmw tax...

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by mwahlert

this is exactly what i like about your company and what it stands for... not charging an arm and a leg because we drive bmws.... you make a product, make some money on it and still deliver it to us at a killer price..

no Bmw tax...

This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case. ITs a FACT that things made in China are cheaper (i.e. money not quality) then made in Canada or the US. The quality issue is a whole different can of worms. It is true that a Chinese factory with the same know how and technology will most likely produce goods of similar quality, but thats if you can find a company like that in China which does not cut corners to make an extra buck.

Case in point. My good friend owns an aquarium store. It is cheaper to buy a 300 Gallon tank, have it put on a boat and shipped here then it is to go down the street and have a local company make it. The Chinese tank is slightly lower quality but costs 2/3 the price and its shipped from across the world...

Energy, labor, rent, cost of living, etc.. are higher here so the goods cost more.

Mike

[scheherazade]

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

So this is now turning into buy American versus foreign products argument.

I only want people to "know what they are paying for".

Businesses run how they like to run (everyone has different overhead).
People have to live and work everywhere.
Support who you want to support, don't feel pressured.

Originally Posted by Vince@ V K Motorwerks

People charge more with BMW stuff because they can. People will pay and that is fine. I guess we serve the people who dont wish to overpay.

The economy is tough, we just want to help out by saving people more money.

Translated :
BMW has more drivers with money to burn.
VK fills in the market for the scrooges among us.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case.

...

Mike

I totally agree.
Each company is adding some value.
AR has a longer 3" section - wider pulse diffusion
CP-E has a more rounded cast hotside mate - more gradual gas flow direction change @ hotside.

As a customer, you have to weigh the value added against the price, and decide for yourself if it's worth it.
Especially when some of the product differences are imperceptible without some 3rd party performance measurement.

Can your but dyno tell between 350 and 360 hp?
If not, is it worth another $300 bucks?



BMW tax wise...
If you look at the STI/EVO DPs I linked, regardless of why (good reasons or bad), you'd have to be loony to not see that the price difference is night and day.


-scheherazade

[Kroy]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This assumes that all other vendors are price gauging because you drive a BMW which is not the case. ITs a FACT that things made in China are cheaper (i.e. money not quality) then made in Canada or the US. The quality issue is a whole different can of worms. It is true that a Chinese factory with the same know how and technology will most likely produce goods of similar quality, but thats if you can find a company like that in China which does not cut corners to make an extra buck.

Case in point. My good friend owns an aquarium store. It is cheaper to buy a 300 Gallon tank, have it put on a boat and shipped here then it is to go down the street and have a local company make it. The Chinese tank is slightly lower quality but costs 2/3 the price and its shipped from across the world...

Energy, labor, rent, cost of living, etc.. are higher here so the goods cost more.

Mike

I can't find any flaw in that statement. Quality is dependent on the vendor not the country of origin. As a Chinese print broker, I know there are good factories in China amongst all the shady bad ones (otherwise I'd be out of a job). As long as VK keeps a close watch and QC, it shouldn't matter where their product comes from. It could be produced in the underwater city of Atlantis for all I care.

Also, those who participated in the DP GB really did pay more than the $350 JK charged for their product. They also paid in time. I think some of them waited upwards 5 months for their DP. It's always a tradeoff.

I really don't get what there is to argue when comparing American/foreign made products. Shouldn't the bottom line be all that matters?

By the way, if you think about the price difference between AR and VK and account for the fact that the average laborer gets paid less than $500/mo USD, pricing makes sense. There's no proof to back up my next statement, but I think there will be less than 2hp difference between AR and VK. VK will probably be slightly lower in quality, but I think it'll be well within the acceptable ranges.

[packinDSS]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I don't think that some catless downpipes design can bring more horepower gains than another. These are some 30cm PIPES, not rockets. They all have the same shape, and even if some of them are larger at the beginning for a few centimeters, its useless because the exhaust has 2.5". Maybe its even worse because there can be gas turbulences when the diameter goes abruptly from 3" to 2.5" creating unneeded backpressure.

The thing I would be concerned about is quality. If there are no leaks and the downpipes fit well and don't resonate or touch the car's body, its all good.

And I also think that a set of downpipes should not cost an arm and a leg, because if you get a full stainless steel exhaust with $1800, the downpipes should cost no more than $200.

Too bad the stock downpipes only sell with catalytic converters, because I think that the best downpipes would be the stock ones with the catalytic converter removed.

Take em off and hollow them out (did I saythat out loud)