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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > THE ULTIMATE Intercooler Thread - What to Look For Before Buying an FMIC



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      03-05-2016, 10:11 AM   #67
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Are the're any decent upgrades to stock that don't weigh significantly more? Not thrilled with the idea of hanging an extra 10 or 15 off in front of the front axel.
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      03-05-2016, 11:41 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Are the're any decent upgrades to stock that don't weigh significantly more? Not thrilled with the idea of hanging an extra 10 or 15 off in front of the front axel.
I think every aftermarket unit weighs more as the stock one is really a piece of crap in terms of performance and quality. Lots of plastic, etc. The benefits from an upgraded FMIC FAR outweighs the 10 pounds of or so of weight addition.

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      03-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidoman View Post
What is your reasoning why you do not think they are the best for that price?
Results i saw from different ATM customers were not as good other top intercoolers
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      03-05-2016, 02:58 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex68 View Post
Stick turbo and that will remain but besides afe Intake and cobb drive tune that's it atm ...I have coming er charge pipe and forge dv and dp's will be in the cards. I don't want a chunky monkey cooler that I need to trim and cut etc more effect response and low end torque ...so basically my initial thoughts are either mishimo or the 5 inch vrsf but would love all input
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      03-05-2016, 03:01 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Are the're any decent upgrades to stock that don't weigh significantly more? Not thrilled with the idea of hanging an extra 10 or 15 off in front of the front axel.
The cooling benefits will heavily outweigh the extra weight

You can go with 5" intercoolers to keep weight to a minimum
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      03-05-2016, 06:16 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
The cooling benefits will heavily outweigh the extra weight

You can go with 5" inter-coolers to keep weight to a minimum
Well, it's not really that simple. Of course when it comes to acceleration an upgrading FMIC is going to provide big benefits even if it adds a little weight, but when it comes to feel and balance while cornering, the FMIC isn't helping at all. I would love more power, but I want to keep the determent to cornering and feel to a minimum.

Good advice about a 5 inch, but do you have any idea what the weight on a good 5 inch compared to stock is?
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      03-05-2016, 06:30 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Well, it's not really that simple. Of course when it comes to acceleration an upgrading FMIC is going to provide big benefits even if it adds a little weight, but when it comes to feel and balance while cornering, the FMIC isn't helping at all. I would love more power, but I want to keep the determent to cornering and feel to a minimum.

Good advice about a 5 inch, but do you have any idea what the weight on a good 5 inch compared to stock is?

I guarantee you would not be able to tell by driving if a car had an upgraded ic or not. You would only notice it after you didn't heat soak after a single pull. The weight is minimal and honestly not worth discussing.

3700+ lb car you will not notice a few pounds on nose.
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom
FYI - I don't drive hard at all. So I'm not interested in more clamping force when I won't use it. Even on my car, I take it easy. It's just too loud to be enjoyable.
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      03-05-2016, 06:34 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Well, it's not really that simple. Of course when it comes to acceleration an upgrading FMIC is going to provide big benefits even if it adds a little weight, but when it comes to feel and balance while cornering, the FMIC isn't helping at all. I would love more power, but I want to keep the determent to cornering and feel to a minimum.

Good advice about a 5 inch, but do you have any idea what the weight on a good 5 inch compared to stock is?
There is no way you would notice 10# of weight in the front to throw off the balance of the whole car in a corner. I just can't see that with how much this car weighs.

Mike
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      03-05-2016, 06:37 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com View Post
Results i saw from different ATM customers were not as good other top intercoolers
I'm always saying atm and Wagner are the best intercoolers.

What ones have you seen performing better then ATM.

Beside ad engineering intercooler.

Last edited by Brule; 03-05-2016 at 07:44 PM.
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      03-05-2016, 06:50 PM   #76
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What setup would you say the Mishimoto ic is ideal for? I'm looking to run about 14-17 psi on a "stage 1" type tune with forge dv, evolution cp and k&n drop in filter.
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      03-05-2016, 07:49 PM   #77
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Stock, its been shown to heat soak quickly and has stock adapters which are restricting flow
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      03-06-2016, 02:31 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Are the're any decent upgrades to stock that don't weigh significantly more? Not thrilled with the idea of hanging an extra 10 or 15 off in front of the front axel.
Just do a cowl delete & the FMIC & you'll end up with less weight up front overall.
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      03-06-2016, 10:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Snails View Post
Just do a cowl delete & the FMIC & you'll end up with less weight up front overall.
Since we are talking about ICs and making sure they work efficiently, can we talk about the cowl delete for a second?

The IC works by having fresh air flow through it. Part of that equation is making sure the air has a place to go behind it. The engine bay is closed off with the cowl and underbody panel to use the low pressure under the car to suck out the engine bay air.

When you take the cowl off, you mess with that air flow. It would seem that you are giving the under hood air another path to escape, but the cowl area is usually high pressure. That's why our fresh air intake is there, and why you see muscle cars with "cowl induction" hoods that are open in the back.

So rather than giving under hood air another escape path, it would seem that you are adding air pressure, which would reduce the efficiency of all radiators(IC included).

Just wondering if anyone has any data on air management with a cowl versus without.
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      03-06-2016, 10:30 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Are the're any decent upgrades to stock that don't weigh significantly more? Not thrilled with the idea of hanging an extra 10 or 15 off in front of the front axel.
Weight is necessary. All that extra material is contributing to heat dissipation. Intercoolers are the one part you dont want to be lighter. Even the 5" feel like they weigh a ton compared to stock.
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      03-06-2016, 12:14 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brule View Post
Stock, its been shown to heat soak quickly and has stock adapters which are restricting flow
Show me where its been shown (and then I will proceed to show you about 20 logs where its 30 deg better than stock by redline under the same conditions)? In fact show me ONE bad review from someone who has one on their car? Look all day because you won't find it.

Define heat soak quickly? I peak at 19, If I drop down to 3rd on the highway and flog it to over 6000rpm temps rise a few deg and quickly recover. Cruising IATs are 16-22 deg over ambient (obviously more when sitting in traffic or stop and go). The difference between heat soak vs a larger intercooler is where a 7" may not heat soak until 10 runs, the Mishitmoto may heat soak after 3 runs. Is that "quickly heat soaking" or stock like heat soaking? Maybe if your road racing or doing shift sectors. For the average car/guy it does not heat soak quickly.

As for these restrictive connectors. Well have we not discovered inlets are restrictive? Have we not discovered outlets are restrictive? Have we not discovered stock air box is restrictive? Have we not discovered oem DPs are restrictive? Have ANY of these restrictions prevented over 400whp? stock turbo outlet size is 1.5" isn't that a restriction too? How many FBO minus intercooler with meth or E85 cars with stock intercooler have surpassed 400whp, tons. The inlets are restrictive in that the engine must apply more work: as in you may need to run 20psi vs 18.5psi to achieve the same results but the inlet size does not "choke off whp" or prevent you from achieving anything under 450whp, its not that small stop drinking the kool-aide.

Bottom line is all I have is Mishimoto intercooler, drop in filter (I had AFE dual cone, you can buy them for cheap if you like) run E35, peak at 19psi, 13deg or peak timing and perfectly clean logs. Is it the best: no. Is it a great value: no. Is it the easiest to install, most stealth and easiest to return back to stock: yes. Is it good enough for a stock turbo FBO. I've had it going on two years running more boost and timing than any of these OTS maps and to imply its only adequate for stock is absurd.

Last edited by stanlalee; 03-06-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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      03-06-2016, 02:11 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanlalee View Post
Show me where its been shown (and then I will proceed to show you about 20 logs where its 30 deg better than stock by redline under the same conditions)? In fact show me ONE bad review from someone who has one on their car? Look all day because you won't find it.

Define heat soak quickly? I peak at 19, If I drop down to 3rd on the highway and flog it to over 6000rpm temps rise a few deg and quickly recover. Cruising IATs are 16-22 deg over ambient (obviously more when sitting in traffic or stop and go). The difference between heat soak vs a larger intercooler is where a 7" may not heat soak until 10 runs, the Mishitmoto may heat soak after 3 runs. Is that "quickly heat soaking" or stock like heat soaking? Maybe if your road racing or doing shift sectors. For the average car/guy it does not heat soak quickly.

As for these restrictive connectors. Well have we not discovered inlets are restrictive? Have we not discovered outlets are restrictive? Have we not discovered stock air box is restrictive? Have we not discovered oem DPs are restrictive? Have ANY of these restrictions prevented over 400whp? stock turbo outlet size is 1.5" isn't that a restriction too? How many FBO minus intercooler with meth or E85 cars with stock intercooler have surpassed 400whp, tons. The inlets are restrictive in that the engine must apply more work: as in you may need to run 20psi vs 18.5psi to achieve the same results but the inlet size does not "choke off whp" or prevent you from achieving anything under 450whp, its not that small stop drinking the kool-aide.

Bottom line is all I have is Mishimoto intercooler, drop in filter (I had AFE dual cone, you can buy them for cheap if you like) run E35, peak at 19psi, 13deg or peak timing and perfectly clean logs. Is it the best: no. Is it a great value: no. Is it the easiest to install, most stealth and easiest to return back to stock: yes. Is it good enough for a stock turbo FBO. I've had it going on two years running more boost and timing than any of these OTS maps and to imply its only adequate for stock is absurd.
Meth and or E85 hides the heatsoak of the stock ic rather well on pump 93 I peak at 18 psi and it heatsoaked quickly. You can feel the power being robbed after a few pulls.

At the end of the day it's an inexpensive mod. I think people put way too much thought into it.
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FYI - I don't drive hard at all. So I'm not interested in more clamping force when I won't use it. Even on my car, I take it easy. It's just too loud to be enjoyable.
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      03-06-2016, 03:02 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Meth and or E85 hides the heatsoak of the stock ic rather well on pump 93 I peak at 18 psi and it heatsoaked quickly. You can feel the power being robbed after a few pulls.

At the end of the day it's an inexpensive mod. I think people put way too much thought into it.
Meth hides it completely but e85 effects are post charge so the logs represent what the intercooler is doing but don't show the cooling effects of ethanol. Both make the heat dissipation less crucial compared to pump gas. Then their is the question of does it flow adequately. I was just pointing out its called "forced" induction. If you force it harder you can overcome the restrictions mentioned to a point. That point on oem style intercooler connectors is well over 400whp. That point for stock inlets seem to be about the same. People act like your stuck at 350whp if you utilize an intercooler with factory style connections. I think its safe to say the stock intercooler is generally underwhelming but just because the Mishimoto is only 5" and utilizes oem style couplers doesn't mean its only suitable for stock/no mods. Its not an oem replacement part, it is an actual upgrade.
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      03-06-2016, 05:11 PM   #84
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Mishmoto is a tiny intercooler, ambient temps 16-22 over ambient cruising is alot.

Check out some atm logs that are with in a few f ambient.

It might have a big improvement over stock but its a small restrictive intercooler
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      03-06-2016, 07:17 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brule View Post
Mishmoto is a tiny intercooler, ambient temps 16-22 over ambient cruising is alot.

Check out some atm logs that are with in a few f ambient.

It might have a big improvement over stock but its a small restrictive intercooler
16-22 over ambient is not high period. No intercooler is going to run at ambient. The very best run 10-15deg unless your getting a unicorn reading. I can get 14 deg in optimal conditions an a steady throttle. You may feel its comparatively high but in relationship to affects on performance it is not. You may feel its small and restrictive because well its smaller and more restrictive. What you arent seeming to get is what affect that has on performance. Do you know the difference in power between a 10 deg difference in IATs? Do you know what you are sacrificing in performance using factory couplers at 400whp? Until you are reaching temps where IAT timing corrections come into play those differences are here nor there. Stock intercooler runs into that area with one good run. The Mishimoto does not.

The statement I responded to had nothing to do with if its small or restrictive but the implication it is not adequate for anything but stock. You aren't sacrificing nearly as much as you think you are. Almost all your power from intercooling is coming from flow improvements and keeping temps below engaging IAT corrections (which can be virtually turned way down or off with E40 and above). The intercooler connectors are just one of about 10 different restrictive areas between the air filter and reaching the intake manifold that can be improved upon but doesn't mean not suitable for use beyond stock. The difference between utilizing those connectors at 400whp is about equal to the difference between running a drop in filter and dual cone intakes. Your probably one of those people who tell people their car is going to blow up if they use the stock airbox on a tuned car. The intercooler is perfectly usable up to about 430 whp ESPECIALLY with the use of ethanol and meth.

Its not the best and its not for extremes (duh) but only suitable for stock, child please.
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      03-06-2016, 09:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Varjo View Post
Well, it's not really that simple. Of course when it comes to acceleration an upgrading FMIC is going to provide big benefits even if it adds a little weight, but when it comes to feel and balance while cornering, the FMIC isn't helping at all. I would love more power, but I want to keep the determent to cornering and feel to a minimum.

Good advice about a 5 inch, but do you have any idea what the weight on a good 5 inch compared to stock is?
Highly doubt you will feel the difference when cornering

Get something like the Wagner Competition intercooler, its the lightest you can go while still offering great results
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      03-06-2016, 09:54 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brule View Post
I'm always saying atm and Wagner are the best intercoolers.

What ones have you seen performing better then ATM.

Beside ad engineering intercooler.
First intercooler i thought of was Wagner, i even saw head to head comparison where Wagner did better than ATM

Didnt see any comparison between ATM and other intercoolers, but ER and ETS on my car did better numbers than ATM numbers i saw on forum users cars
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      03-06-2016, 09:56 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parksjm7 View Post
What setup would you say the Mishimoto ic is ideal for? I'm looking to run about 14-17 psi on a "stage 1" type tune with forge dv, evolution cp and k&n drop in filter.
Stage 1 tune, with minor mods
IF the car is not pushing crazy boost numbers
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