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      03-07-2017, 08:29 AM   #1
anjuna
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e90 amplifier to e70 amplifier

The whole story starts out like this.

I rented a newer 3 series a while back with the super neat sound system with 90275984753 speakers, including the one in the dash. The whole concept of LCR imaging has always been something that I have enjoyed (previously being a FOH engineer with a lucky ducky LCR rig).

I also noticed that the e90 amp generally had some sort of DSP that made the speakers sound like wet cardboard boxes being struck by timpani mallets. I also have an X3, so I swapped the amp over from that and BAM! No longer do I need to have treble cranked to 11 and bass around 8 on the radio. Much cleaner, crisper, and pretty much awesome.

I liked the idea of picking up another cheap X3 amplifier and using that, but then I thought about something else....

When I got my e90 (pre LCI) I noticed that the front vent/grille could be changed for 10 bucks shipped from ebay. Well, this is a rather cheap adventure, as you can also find an OEM hifi 100mm speaker for 10-20 bucks shipped.

I was hoping that I could simply hook some wires up to where the center channel out should be on the X3 amplifier and that would work, since most of the amps have the same connections and probably share tons of similar internal components. However, there was no success.

I was too far gone into the idea of doing this, it was STILL cheaper than a MS8 or something of the likes, and definitely sounded a ton better, so I went ahead and did some research. The e70 amplifier has a very similar form/fit/function as the e90 amplifier and, sure enough, is a direct fit in place of the e90 amplifier. However, this particular model has a center channel output

So here I am today. Not sure of anyone else that has done it, but I have a e90 HiFi radio with a e70 amplifier in place driving all the channels and a center channel. The DSP in the e70 amp is MUCH better than the original e90 and I am very happy.

With that, I reach out to the forum to see if anyone can help me out with two SMALL quirks I have with this set up.

1. I have a slight bump at around 7k. These trained ears hear it and I can't quite flatten it out with the radio EQ. I don't want to do DSP, so i was wondering if there was any coding possibilities with the amplifier?

2. The volume level on the e70 amplifier is a little lower than the e90. I am not suggesting anyone listed to high volume music for extended periods of time, but I know the e70 amp can push more than the e90. This might also be a coding thing, but I have mitigated it by "pushing" my auxiliary level. I have it set on +4 now, which is the loudest it can be without producing distortion. Any ideas?

All in all, this project cost me 130 bucks to massively improve my e90 sound system.
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      03-07-2017, 04:03 PM   #2
ctuna
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First of all there is no such thing as an e90,e70 or x3 amplifier.
BMW makes three sound systems that they use pretty much through
every series unless you special order the Individual Sound System.
Now they have some B and 0 offerings in some of the high end stuff.

BMW uses 3 different speaker amplifier systems throughout the 2006 to 2009 range The base system no amp no tweeters , the Hi Fi system originally 10 speakers one 6 channel amp , and Top Hi Fi or L7 9 channels 11 to 13 speakers
depending on model. the last one has multi channel processing.

Base system no amp no tweeters
Hi Fi tweeters in front and back most years 6 channel amp
Top Hi Fi or L7 9 channel amp Hk dsp processing.
Details in the following links

BMW stereo types
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352586
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...2&d=1266451970
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...2&d=1260829447
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343673
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138949
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1209780605
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1209780865
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=641323
http://bmwcoders.com/forum/3-er-8/bm...1-e92-e93-291/
http://technicpnp.com/menuDiagrams/d...e90_92_93.html
http://www.musicarnw.com/page-2/
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...3&d=1169133185
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...4&d=1278871872

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      03-07-2017, 04:16 PM   #3
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every bmw amplifier tuned to compensate some drawbacks of the speakers
e90 top hifi system designed by harman while f25 or e70 top hifi designed by philips/lear
to only common thing in these amps is sound format going from HU and wiring from amp to speakers
all internals are designed by harman or lear engineer to build some system
so, if you want tune system you need pp82dsp amp with software because ms-8 is not manufactured few years and some count of the last produced units had problem with quality
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      03-07-2017, 04:27 PM   #4
ctuna
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If you read the rad2 files you can see the have slight eq files
for different models but I think the amps are interchangeable.

http://www.bmwgm5.com/Logic7_6941681.htm

Type #1 LOGIC7 for 7-Series E65/66
P/N 65126920284 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126921011 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126921273 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126921416 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126922807 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126926735 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126929140 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126938997 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126941681 -> 65126961389 used on the E65, E66, E67 7-series
P/N 65126961389 $1137.45 at ECS Tuning or $1114.83 at GetBMWparts.com

Type #2 LOGIC7 for 2004-2008 5-Series E60/61, LOGIC7 for 2004-2007 6-Series E63/64, LOGIC7 for 2006-2007 E90/91/92/93
P/N 65126933392? -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126935697? -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126935923? -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126936640 -> 65129170386 used on the E60 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126938639 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126939783 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126943491 -> 65129170386 used on the E60 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126945781 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126951669 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126955478 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126958656 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126960923 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series and E90 3-series
P/N 65126963821 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126972156 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126973618 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126973621 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series and E90 3-series
P/N 65126974723 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65126975030? -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65126982299 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series and E90 E91 3-series
P/N 65126982406 -> 65129170386 used on the E91 3-series wagon
P/N 65129110118 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65129118575 -> 65129170386 used on the E92 3-series coupe
P/N 65129121635 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series, E90 E91 3-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65129126791 -> 65129170386 used on the E87 1-series and E90 E91 E92 3-series
P/N 65129138182 -> 65129170386 used on the E93 3-series convertible
P/N 65129141001? -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65129150899 -> 65129170386 used on the E81 E87 1-series, E90 E91 E92 E93 3-series, E60 E61 5-series and E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65129166334 -> 65129170386 used on the 1-series, 3-series, 5-series and 6-series
P/N 65129170386 -> $899.80 at ECS Tuning or $935.12 at GetBMWparts.com

Type #3 BMW Top Hifi DSP used on 2009-2010 5-series E60/61, 2008-2010 6-series E63/64, 2008-2010 1-series E81/82/87/88, 2008-2010 3-series E90/91/92/93
P/N 65129166897 -> 65129181743 used on the 2009-2010 E60 E61 5-series and 2008-2010 E63 E64 6-series
P/N 65129177752 -> 65129181743 used on the 2008-2010 E81 E82 E87 E88 1-series, 2008-2010 E90 E91 E92 E93 3-series
P/N 65129181743 -> $959.42 at ECS Tuning or $940.32 at GetBMWparts.com

Type #4 BMW Sound System Amplifier used on 2013-2015 X1, 2010-2013 1-series, 2011-2013 3-series
P/N 65129181743 -> 6512918086 used up to 03/2010 1-series
P/N 65129218086 -> $959.42 at ECS Tuning or $940.34 at GetBMWparts.com
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      03-07-2017, 06:28 PM   #5
anjuna
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the amplifiers are absolutely interchangeable.

to clarify, which i thought i did, i have the hifi sound system in my e90.

the amplifier connections are the same. identical pin out. this can be seen on ANY image of the amplifiers.

what i did was use a different hifi amplifier from a e70 in my hifi e90.

- much larger heatsink.
- center channel output.
- higher output level.
- different EQ curve.
- different timing (this is an assumption).

You can cite part numbers as much as you'd like, but they are most definitely different looking and sounding. they are the exact same audio trims and connectors. easy peasy plug and play upgrade.

if i can just figure out the sensitivity issue and the EQ curve, it would be valuable information for those of us who don't want to go crazy with a MS8 or other DSP since the factory amps have tons of channels built in.
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      03-07-2017, 06:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpending View Post
every bmw amplifier tuned to compensate some drawbacks of the speakers
e90 top hifi system designed by harman while f25 or e70 top hifi designed by philips/lear
to only common thing in these amps is sound format going from HU and wiring from amp to speakers
all internals are designed by harman or lear engineer to build some system
so, if you want tune system you need pp82dsp amp with software because ms-8 is not manufactured few years and some count of the last produced units had problem with quality
why would i need to change out a fully functioning, very powerful and compact, factory fit amplifier with built in dsp for.... another aftermarket amp with dsp?

i need to figure out if i can change a few settings in the amplifier. i guess i will have to wait for my coding cable to arrive and dig dig dig
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      03-07-2017, 09:21 PM   #7
ctuna
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As far as I know the e90 never had a center channel output for Hi Fi that
didn't come till the F30 . The HI Fi amp changed in 2011 but I thought the center channel didn't come till the F30.
Pre 2010 Hi Fi amp black in color Post Silver but Hi Fi is not Top Hi Fi or
L7 which always had a center channel in the e90 series onward.

The Helix/ Dsp/amps are superior to the factory amps and it is and understatement
to say they are way more adjustable and suited to non factory speakers.
As are a number of other aftermarket solutions but if you have a Logic 7
system its not cheap or easy to implement any of them.

There are some minor eq settings you might be able to change in the stock head
unit but I haven't seen anybody change the settings in the L7 or Hi Fi amp as
long as I have been here .(I suspect because there are none) Go to the coding sub forum and start asking ? And the design is pretty old on both of them.

Best System examples
Logic 7 upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=826683
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590420
Base System Upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1411521234
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445266
http://www.monsteraudiodesign.co.uk/
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634957
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003810
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822366
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581379
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451941
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540954
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=Dotech
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495855
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494299
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...morel-jbl.html
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ht=amp+upgrade
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=550771
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
HI Fi upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ighlight=level
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540446
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...hlight=technic
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=532585
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833581
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443043
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324214
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...hlight=level+3
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ight=processor
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=BSW
http://www.bilstereoforum.se/showthread.php?t=2356
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...creations.html

Last edited by ctuna; 03-07-2017 at 10:54 PM..
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      03-08-2017, 02:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anjuna View Post
why would i need to change out a fully functioning, very powerful and compact, factory fit amplifier with built in dsp for.... another aftermarket amp with dsp?

i need to figure out if i can change a few settings in the amplifier. i guess i will have to wait for my coding cable to arrive and dig dig dig
you do not need cable to load amp coding file to ncs dummy and to see that it is do not have any tuning option despite bmw body type and and few more
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      03-08-2017, 10:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
As far as I know the e90 never had a center channel output for Hi Fi that
didn't come till the F30 . The HI Fi amp changed in 2011 but I thought the center channel didn't come till the F30.
Pre 2010 Hi Fi amp black in color Post Silver but Hi Fi is not Top Hi Fi or
L7 which always had a center channel in the e90 series onward.

The Helix/ Dsp/amps are superior to the factory amps and it is and understatement
to say they are way more adjustable and suited to non factory speakers.
As are a number of other aftermarket solutions but if you have a Logic 7
system its not cheap or easy to implement any of them.

There are some minor eq settings you might be able to change in the stock head
unit but I haven't seen anybody change the settings in the L7 or Hi Fi amp as
long as I have been here .(I suspect because there are none) Go to the coding sub forum and start asking ? And the design is pretty old on both of them.

Best System examples
Logic 7 upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=826683
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590420
Base System Upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1411521234
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445266
http://www.monsteraudiodesign.co.uk/
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=634957
http://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1003810
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=822366
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581379
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451941
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540954
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ghlight=Dotech
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495855
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=494299
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...morel-jbl.html
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ht=amp+upgrade
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=550771
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
HI Fi upgrades
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...1#post16679904
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ighlight=level
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=540446
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...hlight=technic
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=532585
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833581
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443043
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324214
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...hlight=level+3
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...ight=processor
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...&highlight=BSW
http://www.bilstereoforum.se/showthread.php?t=2356
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...creations.html
I'm surprised, through your massive link dump, that you did not come across this wonderful piece of information.

http://www.bmwmotorsports.org/pdf/e7...%20Systems.pdf

You can clearly see the center channel in use on the Hi-Fi system. But I think you are mostly missing the point. I did not use a e90 amplifier for the center channel. I have stated a few times now that I switched my e90 hifi amplifier out for a e70 hifi amplifier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ptpending View Post
you do not need cable to load amp coding file to ncs dummy and to see that it is do not have any tuning option despite bmw body type and and few more
Interesting. Maybe thats why I need to check out NCS expert

I'll keep a log here of what I come across. Either way, just over a buck for a massively improved system by plug and play is better than aftermarket blah blah blah in my book.

Last edited by anjuna; 03-08-2017 at 10:37 AM.. Reason: clarity, because specificity isnt enough.
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      03-08-2017, 11:52 AM   #10
ctuna
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Never have seen that document before in the 7 years I have been
a member here . Maybe because this is the e90 stereo sub forum .
Hi Fi option adds an extra center channel so did you have to add wiring
for that in an e90 . Its still at 25 watt per channel for everything but
the floors. I will add that document to the list.

But since the amp in the e70 is rated at 25 watts for a 4 ohm speaker
and the e90 has 2 ohm door speakers you have doubled the door power
now this makes sense and I could see why you would say it makes
a difference . (well maybe in the 40 to 50 watt range)

Last edited by ctuna; 03-08-2017 at 04:22 PM..
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      01-11-2022, 06:47 PM   #11
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I know no one likes a thread revival but I see the op is still active. Can I put any hifi amp in my e92 with hifi? You make me feel like I can. I can get a new one much cheaper if it's from another model line up.
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      01-11-2022, 06:51 PM   #12
ctuna
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HI Fi amps are dirt cheap on Ebay.
Why because a lot of people go aftermarket to get something better.
Just because it come out of another model does not mean the amp is
any different. They have three main stereo types that haven't changed
in a long time. And they share the same parts mostly.
HI Fi equipped cars made from 06 to 09 have the black Hi Fi amp in the US
those made from 2011.5 onward have Silver Hi Fi amp.

Doesn't it already have a Hi Fi amp , if it has Hi Fi!
Why are you doing this ?

Hi Fi amps for the F series may have a center channel .
The e90's did not I don't think anything in the same year range
the e90 had Hi Fi's with a center channel . Logic 7 is another story.

Last edited by ctuna; 01-11-2022 at 07:13 PM..
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      01-11-2022, 08:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesmlemay View Post
I know no one likes a thread revival but I see the op is still active. Can I put any hifi amp in my e92 with hifi? You make me feel like I can. I can get a new one much cheaper if it's from another model line up.
As long as the connectors are compatible, it should work.

To everyone here: keep in mind the hifi amp is a traditional analog amp - no MOST bus or anything like that. An E70 amp is electrically compatible, but as noted by the OP, has a different DSP / timing and an extra audio channel for the center speaker. Naturally, running a wire for a center speaker, and then inserting it into the OEM wiring harness would allow one to activate that center channel, provided you’re using the E70 amp.

FWIW, owners of the E31 will often use the E36 Harman/Kardon amp as it has a different DSP setup, more power, and a nice little HiFi switch - and it works in the E31 as the connectors are compatible. Same principle here too.
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      01-14-2022, 08:53 AM   #14
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I will order the cheap one and try it. Thanks
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      01-14-2022, 08:55 AM   #15
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I bought the car with a dead amp. I can't find any with matching part numbers. And most have different software numbers. I assume SW stands for software. E90 amps seem to be around 160 + on ebay. X3 amps can be had for $50.
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      01-14-2022, 12:47 PM   #16
ctuna
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In general in the US the Black amps are for 06 to and including 09 and the
Silver one 's are after. 2011.5 . There a was a gap when there was no Hi Fi
Between 2010 and 2011.5

The hi fi amp is analog and is fixed hardware nothing can be changed in it through
programming . Had no Most Port no Serial Lines just analog signals for power and sound.
At least this was true up to the end of the e9x series after that it's not known here
pretty much.
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      01-20-2022, 01:12 PM   #17
Jamesmlemay
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I installed a e84 x1 amp. It did restore the sounds... However, now I have a loud buzzing through the speakers whether the car is on or off.
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      01-20-2022, 02:30 PM   #18
Jamesmlemay
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Okay so I unplugged the professional radio and replugged it back in. The static is still there but much more faint. Could be a normal condition.. I probably wouldn't notice it if I wasn't looking for it.

Long story short, the e84 amp fixed my e92 no sound problem for $38...
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      01-20-2022, 02:45 PM   #19
Runnin'Rich
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Something worth noting:

E90 hifi
door speakers 2ohm
Underseat subs 2ohm

E70 hifi
Door speaker & centre speakers 4ohm
Underseat subs 2ohm

If you just swap to the e70 amp your door speakers could be quieter because of the difference in impedance (ohms)

I have a Hi-Fi e91 and I'm planning to do the EPS Individual Audio door/centre speakers(4ohm) with an e70 hifi amp.

I will try only the amp first and report back if it sounds any better than regular e90 hifi.
I found a silver e70 amp for $63 on eBay
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      01-21-2022, 07:23 AM   #20
Jamesmlemay
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I wonder what the ohms are on the e84. Its working and sounds good enough for me.
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