E90Post
 


TNT Racewerks
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Are you driving a 325i with 3 stage intake manifold?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-03-2011, 08:00 PM   #1
335imax
Private First Class
25
Rep
198
Posts

Drives: 2008 335i
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (1)

Are you driving a 325i with 3 stage intake manifold?

I upgraded to the 330i 3 stage intake manifold on my 2006 325i and have the following issue.
1. The throttle surges on and off between 2,000 and 3,000 rpm under Wide Open Throttle...
Simply put, at 2000 rpm, when I romp on the gas full throttle, and let it climb from 2000 rpm to redline the car fluctuates throttle drastically between 2000 and 3000 rpm, then at 3000 rpm, all systems go, and the car performs beautifully, Is something wrong with my car, or is this a tuning issue...

My issue has been resolved! Using the Bavarian Technic tool, I was able to reset all the adaptations on my car, specifically the intake manifold adaptation. Once this was reset, the surges are GONE!

I have tried OE Tuning and Active Autowerks. Both tunes do this at 2000 RPM WOT. The issues are similiar with both tunes, although the characteristics of each tune are different. Does yours do this too?

P.S. the car is screaming fast, but I like to shift early and don't like how I don't get real consistant power until 3000 RPM...
__________________
335i Sport, Koni Adjustable, Cobb Accessport, VRSF FMIC, M3 Control Arms

Last edited by 335imax; 02-09-2011 at 06:41 PM..
Appreciate 0
      01-03-2011, 11:41 PM   #2
allmotorh22
making his own parts.
32
Rep
142
Posts

Drives: Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (2)

Nope... and the issues your experiencing are due to the butterfly valves opening and closing when your DME is not expecting it to.

IMHO... 3 stage manifold is a waste. It would probably work better if you got a 330i DME or a tune with a 330i program...

or... put back your wide-open 325i manifold, because i don't know about everyone else but I only race in the higher rpms with a wide-open throttle.
__________________

For Sale: Jet Black pre-LCI front bumper/hood/trunk lid, oe tail lights, 2 oe 16 inch rims w/ good tires. PM w/ offers.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 01:01 AM   #3
accel
First Lieutenant
United_States
22
Rep
340
Posts

Drives: e90 328i MT ZSP
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Someone else here experienced similar issues
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 02:34 AM   #4
BudVlad
Old Geezer
BudVlad's Avatar
Czech_Republic
210
Rep
1,161
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 N53B30
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budweis

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 N53B30  [5.00]
My experience with the manifold swap may not be relevant since I have N53B30 but the tuner where I had my car done is also tuning N52s ( the guy is in tuning business 20 years and does only BMW). The only problem I had with the swap was when I had 330i (N53B30O0) software installed. The engine completely lost power and I had to reinstall the original software. I took my car to DS Motorsport in Germany and now I have completely different car. It was expensive but worth every penny. I have more power than 330i and the car is very smooth. I posted the dyno charts in another threads.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 08:59 AM   #5
Mimio
Choppin' Broccoli
Mimio's Avatar
United_States
1
Rep
49
Posts

Drives: 2013 335i
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Detroit, MI

iTrader: (0)

Why aren't the tuners using the 330 software as a baseline? or are they? You would think this would be fairly straightforward tune.

BudVlad, any details about why your tune was so successful?
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 09:35 AM   #6
335imax
Private First Class
25
Rep
198
Posts

Drives: 2008 335i
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (1)

Sickly Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
put back your wide-open 325i manifold, because i don't know about everyone else but I only race in the higher rpms with a wide-open throttle.
The car is sickly fast with the three stage intake manifold. And because under normal circumstances one would not be Wide open throttle under 3000 RPM anyway, I think I will live with the issues. The car is WAY TO FAST to go back to a single stage intake manifold... no thanks!
__________________
335i Sport, Koni Adjustable, Cobb Accessport, VRSF FMIC, M3 Control Arms
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 10:15 AM   #7
rothwem
Captain
United_States
200
Rep
870
Posts

Drives: 2009 BMW 328i Wagon
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arden, NC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2009 BMW 328i  [0.00]
I'm not sure what is wrong with your car, but I definitly would stay on the tuner to get it right.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 10:28 AM   #8
BudVlad
Old Geezer
BudVlad's Avatar
Czech_Republic
210
Rep
1,161
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 N53B30
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budweis

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 N53B30  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimio View Post
BudVlad, any details about why your tune was so successful?
The tuner has 20 years of experience with BMW tuning (he doesn’t do any other makes). The tune wasn’t just a re-flash it was done on dyno.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 01:27 PM   #9
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
United_States
172
Rep
3,673
Posts

Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
Nope... and the issues your experiencing are due to the butterfly valves opening and closing when your DME is not expecting it to.

IMHO... 3 stage manifold is a waste. It would probably work better if you got a 330i DME or a tune with a 330i program...

or... put back your wide-open 325i manifold, because i don't know about everyone else but I only race in the higher rpms with a wide-open throttle.
The BMW manifold does not work like the honda 2 stage manifolds with butterflies. There are no alternate runners in the BMW 3 stage manifold (like honda used), and using it creates more power pretty much everywhere.

I think this mod may need some careful dyno tuning to work right. While the 330 software should work just fine, I have a feeling that the tuners flashing 325's to 330's aren't copying everything over from the 330 software - they are probably only using timing and fuel maps from the 330, and not the valvetronic/vanos settings which are a huge part of where the 330 gets it's power.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 01:34 PM   #10
DimSum
Banned
Canada
166
Rep
2,743
Posts

Drives: SLOW
Join Date: May 2008
Location: LITTLEBIMMER.COM

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
Nope... and the issues your experiencing are due to the butterfly valves opening and closing when your DME is not expecting it to.

IMHO... 3 stage manifold is a waste. It would probably work better if you got a 330i DME or a tune with a 330i program...

or... put back your wide-open 325i manifold, because i don't know about everyone else but I only race in the higher rpms with a wide-open throttle.

Wrong. the 330i DME tune requires a 3-stage manifold. Which is why you have such a huge difference in power from 325i (3.0L) to 330i (3.0L).


Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
The BMW manifold does not work like the honda 2 stage manifolds with butterflies. There are no alternate runners in the BMW 3 stage manifold (like honda used), and using it creates more power pretty much everywhere.

I think this mod may need some careful dyno tuning to work right. While the 330 software should work just fine, I have a feeling that the tuners flashing 325's to 330's aren't copying everything over from the 330 software - they are probably only using timing and fuel maps from the 330, and not the valvetronic/vanos settings which are a huge part of where the 330 gets it's power.
+1 you got it right. Slapping on a 330i software on a 325i would actually yield the same kinda performance the 325i originally would have.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 01:35 PM   #11
Gavin@MMW
Brigadier General
Gavin@MMW's Avatar
United_States
309
Rep
3,879
Posts

Drives: MMW Supercharged E90 328i
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 818/805

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
The BMW manifold does not work like the honda 2 stage manifolds with butterflies. There are no alternate runners in the BMW 3 stage manifold (like honda used), and using it creates more power pretty much everywhere.

I think this mod may need some careful dyno tuning to work right. While the 330 software should work just fine, I have a feeling that the tuners flashing 325's to 330's aren't copying everything over from the 330 software - they are probably only using timing and fuel maps from the 330, and not the valvetronic/vanos settings which are a huge part of where the 330 gets it's power.
This is true, the issue with flashing a 330 map to a 325 is that everything is VIN coded, so even with a 330 map, the car still knows its a 325 because the ECU and Tranny and electronics have the 325 VIN in them.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 03:01 PM   #12
allmotorh22
making his own parts.
32
Rep
142
Posts

Drives: Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BudVlad View Post
The tuner has 20 years of experience with BMW tuning (he doesn’t do any other makes). The tune wasn’t just a re-flash it was done on dyno.
as I've said in other posts, it basically comes down to custom tuning for the e90.

..
I'm still not sold on the manifold's "big power" difference/benefit other than creating more usable torque at the lower rpms.
Really, a fully an optimized 3.0 liter N/A race motor should be making at least 100 hp per liter. It just needs a competent tuner to figure out how to make the engine breath (and should anyone reach that level, I'm sure its not going to include a manifold with valves taking up room in the manifold).

Last edited by allmotorh22; 01-04-2011 at 03:20 PM..
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 03:24 PM   #13
BudVlad
Old Geezer
BudVlad's Avatar
Czech_Republic
210
Rep
1,161
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 N53B30
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Budweis

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 E92 N53B30  [5.00]
Unfortunately loading 330i software in the 325i ECU doesn’t work. I found out the hard way. Tuner convinced me that he can overcome the VIN coding. He managed to load the software but the car ran like on a limp mode.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 03:34 PM   #14
335imax
Private First Class
25
Rep
198
Posts

Drives: 2008 335i
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (1)

Your not sold because your not driving one

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
as I've said in other posts, it basically comes down to custom tuning for the e90.

..
I'm still not sold on the manifold's "big power" difference/benefit other than creating more usable torque at the lower rpms.
Really, a fully an optimized 3.0 liter N/A race motor should be making at least 100 hp per liter. It just needs a competent tuner to figure out how to make the engine breath (and should anyone reach that level, I'm sure its not going to include a manifold with valves taking up room in the manifold).
Go drive a 3 stage intake manifold on the 3.0, and you will change your mind...
__________________
335i Sport, Koni Adjustable, Cobb Accessport, VRSF FMIC, M3 Control Arms
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 03:54 PM   #15
allmotorh22
making his own parts.
32
Rep
142
Posts

Drives: Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 325imax View Post
Go drive a 3 stage intake manifold on the 3.0, and you will change your mind...
lol, i'm sure it would ,
no, I'm done with race motors. Its so nice to drive something with manners.
But... I do want to see someone figure it out. It seems that budvlad is the closest with 248hp getting 10+ hp more than a stock 330i, that said I think it could be better. (@bud, do you have access to a dynojet? good for a dyno to dyno comparison). Anyway i'm sticking to bolt-ons till we can get our stuff straight.

Check out skywagon's gains by just deleting the primary cats 15hp on a dynojet (185->200)!
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272261
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273360

look familiar dimsum?
__________________

For Sale: Jet Black pre-LCI front bumper/hood/trunk lid, oe tail lights, 2 oe 16 inch rims w/ good tires. PM w/ offers.
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 04:13 PM   #16
Gavin@MMW
Brigadier General
Gavin@MMW's Avatar
United_States
309
Rep
3,879
Posts

Drives: MMW Supercharged E90 328i
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 818/805

iTrader: (18)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
lol, i'm sure it would ,
no, I'm done with race motors. Its so nice to drive something with manners.
But... I do want to see someone figure it out. It seems that budvlad is the closest with 248hp getting 10+ hp more than a stock 330i, that said I think it could be better. (@bud, do you have access to a dynojet? good for a dyno to dyno comparison). Anyway i'm sticking to bolt-ons till we can get our stuff straight.

Check out skywagon's gains by just deleting the primary cats 15hp on a dynojet (185->200)!
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272261
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273360

look familiar dimsum?
Bud's car doesnt count, he has the N53 engine which cant be compared to the N52 gains
Appreciate 0
      01-04-2011, 04:26 PM   #17
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
United_States
172
Rep
3,673
Posts

Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (4)

Hopefully, we'll know more info this weekend, when I finish installing the 3-stage manifold on my car. I have the old manifold out, but broke one of the crankcase breather hoses (stoopid bmw makes them out of plastic instead of rubber), so a new one is on order.

So I've been driving around in this the last couple of days.. not so comfortable with 500 lb/in springs!
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2011, 08:41 AM   #18
eNineZero
Second Lieutenant
eNineZero's Avatar
Canada
151
Rep
222
Posts

Drives: 2015 328i xDrive
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ottawa

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by allmotorh22 View Post
lol, i'm sure it would ,
no, I'm done with race motors. Its so nice to drive something with manners.
But... I do want to see someone figure it out. It seems that budvlad is the closest with 248hp getting 10+ hp more than a stock 330i, that said I think it could be better. (@bud, do you have access to a dynojet? good for a dyno to dyno comparison). Anyway i'm sticking to bolt-ons till we can get our stuff straight.

Check out skywagon's gains by just deleting the primary cats 15hp on a dynojet (185->200)!
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272261
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273360

look familiar dimsum?
The problem is cams and compression, based on your forum name I am sure you are familiar with how to extract power from NA motors. The most important part of getting hp/liter is cams, compression and rpm's. The N52 has valvetronic, but it only controls lift not duration.

With what a 330i is making with the stock compression and cams, I don't believe there is too much left on the table in terms of improvement.
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2011, 12:05 PM   #19
allmotorh22
making his own parts.
32
Rep
142
Posts

Drives: Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by eNineZero View Post
The problem is cams and compression, based on your forum name I am sure you are familiar with how to extract power from NA motors. The most important part of getting hp/liter is cams, compression and rpm's. The N52 has valvetronic, but it only controls lift not duration.

With what a 330i is making with the stock compression and cams, I don't believe there is too much left on the table in terms of improvement.
Definitely, so explain exactly how a 3 stage manifold contributes to either compression or cam to achieve the most power for the motor?

It doesn't... It doesn't add compression (like a turbo), nor does it add cam duration (the way the engine breathes) to achieve PEAK power...

if it doesn't help with those aspects, then why is everyone concentrating on the 3 stage manifold?

(I know why, because monkey see monkey do...)
__________________

For Sale: Jet Black pre-LCI front bumper/hood/trunk lid, oe tail lights, 2 oe 16 inch rims w/ good tires. PM w/ offers.
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2011, 12:57 PM   #20
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
United_States
172
Rep
3,673
Posts

Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (4)

because all of those things (minus compression) add flow through the motor. Adding more air will give you the ability to make more power. The 3 stage manifold adds more flow. you can get more power out of many cars by adding an intake and exhaust, without touching compression or valve lift. Everyone knows this. Adding the manifold is another way to increase flow.

Valvetronic adds both lift AND duration (though not separately). When valvetronic increases lift at the valve, it also increases duration at the same time. You are basically taking the base cam profile and applying a modifier to it, like base lift and duration X 1.5 at part throttle, and X 2.0 at WOT (just an example). it's variable, not stepped like VTEC is.

The 330i runs more max lift+duration than the 325i, so changing the valvetronic program is like changing the camshaft on a regular car.
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2011, 01:11 PM   #21
allmotorh22
making his own parts.
32
Rep
142
Posts

Drives: Naturally Aspirated
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: los angeles

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
because all of those things (minus compression) add flow through the motor. Adding more air will give you the ability to make more power. The 3 stage manifold adds more flow.
you forgot to disclose, that it adds better flow for the "lower rpms"... and the lower rpms does not give you the max power output...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
Valvetronic adds both lift AND duration.
The 330i runs more max lift+duration than the 325i, so changing the valvetronic program is like changing the camshaft on a regular car.
now we are getting somewhere... and again, this will take a competent tuner (not a manifold) to extract this feature out of the DME and thus, the most power output of this motor.
__________________

For Sale: Jet Black pre-LCI front bumper/hood/trunk lid, oe tail lights, 2 oe 16 inch rims w/ good tires. PM w/ offers.

Last edited by allmotorh22; 01-05-2011 at 01:19 PM..
Appreciate 0
      01-05-2011, 01:22 PM   #22
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
United_States
172
Rep
3,673
Posts

Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

iTrader: (4)

actually, the way the manifold works, it adds power in both low and high rpm situations (at least according to the documentation). Either way, I don't really care about anything over 5000 rpm anyway, I don't race this car, and 99% of my driving is below 5000 rpm. Another poster here picked up over 20 ft/lbs of torque, with the manifold+tune, and that's what I'm going for. I want more low and midrange power for around town driving, and hopefully a bit better mileage too. If I want only high rpm power, I'll go drive my honda :P

Both AA and OE said they can modify the valvetronic programming, but at this point, it's not very impressive. We can just hope that they figure it out with more time, since they just got started working with the N52. In the meantime, I'm going to just swap the manifold and see how it goes. If I feel a noticeable difference, I'll go ahead and get the car dynoed again. I already have a baseline from when I had the pbx installed.


Quote:
now we are getting somewhere... and again, this will take a competent tuner (not a manifold) to extract the most power out of this motor.
Actually, it will take both.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST