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      01-20-2023, 06:24 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by grannyknot View Post
All? Really?
No, I don't think that, that would be you reading your own opinions into it.
Yes I did read it, Wyoming produces a lot oil, they want to keep those jobs in the state, I understand.
Within our kids lifetime the use of oil products are going to drop drastically but since Politicians rarely get elected for their long term thinking they instead pander to the lowest common denominator, hot button issues. Whatever it takes to win another 4 yrs.
I understand the plight of the oil workforce, they're thinking about their next mortgage payment but the citizens of Wyoming and their kids especially would better be severed by encouraging new energy technology industries to move into the state to replace the oil jobs that are going to disappear at some point.

Passing a bill that says we are going to keep everything exactly the way it has always been is short sighted, change is the only constant.
Itís only shortsighted if YOU BELIEVE in the reasons why 30% of the politicians are doing everything in their power to eliminate oil. I donít. Nobody I know does. Not one business person I know and not one friend or family member I know does. Obviously, the majority of people in Wyoming donít either. So there we are.
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      01-20-2023, 07:40 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
The media and corporations applaud all the ICE bans, yet scoff at this.

I don't hate EVs, I think they are superior for the majority of people. But I'm anti-ICE bans motivated purely by political posturing and enriching special interest groups. We all know these bans are motivated by forces that have nothing to do with benefitting the environment.

Whose side are you on?
Dude. Wtf are you talking about? Hundreds of million cars and busses and trains using a non renewable resources and releasing so much greenhouse gasses from getting the resource and burning it is insane.

Ev isn't perfect, but only if acquiring the lithium, and charging the cars come from garbage non renewable resources. Phasing out ICE will make people more likely to force energy companies to go renewable or nuclear, and not coal, or oil. Seriously it's dumb to think it's for any other reason. I personally don't like electric. Drove a tesla s plaid for a few days. The acceleration gets boring and I'm more of a track guy anyway (domt know about 99.99% of other tesla owners who just go in a straight line or hit the drag strip and think they're "pro" and have no clue what a corner even is and they take corners so slowly because they don't know how to take corners in Max speed without crashing, and I prefer the sound of a nice straight 6 or v10 (my two favorite engine sounds), but still, sports cars can be an exception as we are still such a small niche minority and we can allow it on track use (meaning people especially in the USA and Canada will ACTUALLY HIT THE TRACK FOR ONCE RATHER THAN THE STUPID DRWG STRIP), AND ACTUALLY LEARN HOW TO DRIVE PROPERLY (HOPEFULLY). The rest of the terrible driver masses will just drive slowly and the speed limit and STILL CAUSE 99.99999999999% OF CRASHES EVERY DAY EVERYWHERE as usual except this time in EV

Now if we get animal "agriculture" banned, and become more ethical, the greenhouse gasses that won't be released outweigh ALL EXHAUST FROM ALL CARS, BUSES, TRAINS, PLANES, AND SHIPS COMBINED. YES COMBINED AND TWICE MORE. It'd astonishing how stupid humans are. Theyre so selfish and greedy that they will leave a DESTROYED WORLD FOR THE KIDS AND GRANDKIDS WHO IN TURN WILL HATE THEM FOR IT. These oil tycoons are fuking insane. I mean wasn't the first $100 million or $10 billion in their PERSONAL ACCOUNTS ENOUGH? Don't these fukers feel good enough having enough money for THOUSANDS OF LIFETIMES? Wtf is wrong with them why do they STILL NEED MORE THESE GREEDY INSECURE IDIOTIC EARTH DESTROYERS. How and why people havent exiled or imprisoned these scumbags for life I have no idea, but most people have been brainwashed not to be able to.think or use even a modicum of logic or common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
I am on the side of free market capitalism. Let that dictate what kind of cars get made.
Free market capitalism is a scam and purely evil. I have only had 1 job working as a host for directors when I was 18, since then I haven't worked for the past 11 years. But all I see everywhere is 95%+ of the people being used, abused, exploited, working nearly as slaves (when you compare the pitiful wages to what the should be getting), their taxes are used ONLY to enrich or bail out the rich, or certain industries usually bad ones like weapons or animal agriculture or eminent domain in minority neighborhoods, and the highest taxes are paid by the average American when you account for their income and purchasing power. A guy making $10 million paying even $4 million in taxes can survive easily for years with $6 million. Someone making $60k and after taxes earning only $35k has LOST SOO MUCH MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

People have been brainwashed to not see through the bs. I couldn't work because I'd be fired in one day. I won't allow disrespect or bs pay to be dictated to me by scumbags who make 10-350 times more than their MOST productive workers who get the LEAST PAY. No executive works 100-500 times HARDWR in fact their jobs are easier and yet they get paid more than the 9-5er.

My grandfather has a steel company in Europe. I fuking went there and increased the base wage for even the most mediocre and easy work to Ä75,000, and some make Ä200,000-$400,000 when before theyd only get Ä80,000-150,000. If he had a larger corporation I'd raise it even higher. You don't need profit..you can have a ginormous corporation that pays amazing salaries to everyone and make 1% profit and have a good brand name and be sustainable and tell the shareholders to.calm down and accept less pay but guaranteed to get paid longer by treating your employees like people and not slaves

Last edited by DavesZupra4; 01-20-2023 at 07:47 PM..
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      01-20-2023, 08:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DavesZupra4 View Post
Dude. Wtf are you talking about? Hundreds of million cars and busses and trains using a non renewable resources and releasing so much greenhouse gasses from getting the resource and burning it is insane.

Ev isn't perfect, but only if acquiring the lithium, and charging the cars come from garbage non renewable resources. Phasing out ICE will make people more likely to force energy companies to go renewable or nuclear, and not coal, or oil. Seriously it's dumb to think it's for any other reason. I personally don't like electric. Drove a tesla s plaid for a few days. The acceleration gets boring and I'm more of a track guy anyway (domt know about 99.99% of other tesla owners who just go in a straight line or hit the drag strip and think they're "pro" and have no clue what a corner even is and they take corners so slowly because they don't know how to take corners in Max speed without crashing, and I prefer the sound of a nice straight 6 or v10 (my two favorite engine sounds), but still, sports cars can be an exception as we are still such a small niche minority and we can allow it on track use (meaning people especially in the USA and Canada will ACTUALLY HIT THE TRACK FOR ONCE RATHER THAN THE STUPID DRWG STRIP), AND ACTUALLY LEARN HOW TO DRIVE PROPERLY (HOPEFULLY). The rest of the terrible driver masses will just drive slowly and the speed limit and STILL CAUSE 99.99999999999% OF CRASHES EVERY DAY EVERYWHERE as usual except this time in EV

Now if we get animal "agriculture" banned, and become more ethical, the greenhouse gasses that won't be released outweigh ALL EXHAUST FROM ALL CARS, BUSES, TRAINS, PLANES, AND SHIPS COMBINED. YES COMBINED AND TWICE MORE. It'd astonishing how stupid humans are. Theyre so selfish and greedy that they will leave a DESTROYED WORLD FOR THE KIDS AND GRANDKIDS WHO IN TURN WILL HATE THEM FOR IT. These oil tycoons are fuking insane. I mean wasn't the first $100 million or $10 billion in their PERSONAL ACCOUNTS ENOUGH? Don't these fukers feel good enough having enough money for THOUSANDS OF LIFETIMES? Wtf is wrong with them why do they STILL NEED MORE THESE GREEDY INSECURE IDIOTIC EARTH DESTROYERS. How and why people havent exiled or imprisoned these scumbags for life I have no idea, but most people have been brainwashed not to be able to.think or use even a modicum of logic or common sense.



Free market capitalism is a scam and purely evil. I have only had 1 job working as a host for directors when I was 18, since then I haven't worked for the past 11 years. But all I see everywhere is 95%+ of the people being used, abused, exploited, working nearly as slaves (when you compare the pitiful wages to what the should be getting), their taxes are used ONLY to enrich or bail out the rich, or certain industries usually bad ones like weapons or animal agriculture or eminent domain in minority neighborhoods, and the highest taxes are paid by the average American when you account for their income and purchasing power. A guy making $10 million paying even $4 million in taxes can survive easily for years with $6 million. Someone making $60k and after taxes earning only $35k has LOST SOO MUCH MONEY THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

People have been brainwashed to not see through the bs. I couldn't work because I'd be fired in one day. I won't allow disrespect or bs pay to be dictated to me by scumbags who make 10-350 times more than their MOST productive workers who get the LEAST PAY. No executive works 100-500 times HARDWR in fact their jobs are easier and yet they get paid more than the 9-5er.

My grandfather has a steel company in Europe. I fuking went there and increased the base wage for even the most mediocre and easy work to Ä75,000, and some make Ä200,000-$400,000 when before theyd only get Ä80,000-150,000. If he had a larger corporation I'd raise it even higher. You don't need profit..you can have a ginormous corporation that pays amazing salaries to everyone and make 1% profit and have a good brand name and be sustainable and tell the shareholders to.calm down and accept less pay but guaranteed to get paid longer by treating your employees like people and not slaves
OK, comrade.
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      01-20-2023, 11:16 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
OK, comrade.
Didn't even mention abolishing private property. I said I want everyone to get paid high and have better job security and not be verbally or sexually abused as they do now and fear calling out being disrespected because they fear they'll get fired.

Maybe your a "well off" guy (whatever that means), but most people aren't and should be getting 2-3 times HIGHER PAY AT LEAST.

I did this for over 120 workers minimum in my family's steel company.

I don't even work and haven't had a job for 12 years so why should I care? But I do. Most people don't and want to see others struggle so they can flaunt their measly $100-200k year salary so they feel special, even though their also getting paid many times less than their employers founders/ownwrs/shareholders who do nothing.

Is not asking much to make everyone have wages to not just survive but thrive, and anyone who increases prices to create artifical inflation is either jailed, or loses their rights to do business for a decade so society and companies know not to fuk around with being greedy and raising prices to offset the higher pay.

But really the gatekeepers to this reality are the people who make $100-250k a year and don't want their coworkers making money beneath their $100-250k+ to make as much as they do, because they want to afford expensive luxury items and flaunt it to the rest. Pathetic.
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      01-21-2023, 02:56 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Government spends billions on roads? It puts ďitísĒ billions in subsidies???

Where does government get ďitsĒ money from? Asking for a friend
What is the point you're making here? It isn't clear...

If you're going to keep suggesting, as you have been, that the government shouldn't be involved and it should be driven by market "demand" alone. Then government shouldn't be subsidizing oil, roads, etc.

It isn't "government should subsidize the things I like, but not the things I don't".
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      01-21-2023, 06:33 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
What is the point you're making here? It isn't clear...

If you're going to keep suggesting, as you have been, that the government shouldn't be involved and it should be driven by market "demand" alone. Then government shouldn't be subsidizing oil, roads, etc.

It isn't "government should subsidize the things I like, but not the things I don't".
I appreciate your post. It illustrates what scares me about people that think the way you do. We, I, you ARE government. Too many people put government on this high pedestal, something to almost be worshiped, if not, highly looked up to. They donít do anything. They are WE. WE are THEY. Some of us, mostly who donít want make much money (IMHO)but enjoy power, work for government, and make these things happen for the common good using OUR money. In a representative republic like the United States has our representatives are supposed to implement the will of the local people that elected them. We, us, want roads, so we, us, elect representatives to go make that happen. If we donít like how much money they spent on the roads or how they were built we fire them and elect someone new. I love listening to politicians, lecture business, and how they should feel lucky to have the roads that the government provided them. You know from that money tree that government gets all its money from? What a joke.
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      01-21-2023, 06:41 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by DavesZupra4 View Post
Didn't even mention abolishing private property. I said I want everyone to get paid high and have better job security and not be verbally or sexually abused as they do now and fear calling out being disrespected because they fear they'll get fired.

Maybe your a "well off" guy (whatever that means), but most people aren't and should be getting 2-3 times HIGHER PAY AT LEAST.

I did this for over 120 workers minimum in my family's steel company.

I don't even work and haven't had a job for 12 years so why should I care? But I do. Most people don't and want to see others struggle so they can flaunt their measly $100-200k year salary so they feel special, even though their also getting paid many times less than their employers founders/ownwrs/shareholders who do nothing.

Is not asking much to make everyone have wages to not just survive but thrive, and anyone who increases prices to create artifical inflation is either jailed, or loses their rights to do business for a decade so society and companies know not to fuk around with being greedy and raising prices to offset the higher pay.

But really the gatekeepers to this reality are the people who make $100-250k a year and don't want their coworkers making money beneath their $100-250k+ to make as much as they do, because they want to afford expensive luxury items and flaunt it to the rest. Pathetic.
Have you ever seen the movie Dr. Zhivago? I highly recommend it for you. And after that, contemplate it for a few days and then watch no less than five episodes of Leave it to Beaver. After youíve done this homework assignment get back to me. We can continue this discussion.
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      01-21-2023, 08:02 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by grannyknot View Post
Well, it's a good laugh for sure, the rugged self reliant Wyoming cowboy giving the finger to anything that smells like change, I get it and part of me says good for them.
But, when there are no more manufactures producing ICE Pick ups what are they going to do, get out the horse and buggy?
No, they'll test drive an EV Pick up and the acceleration alone will change their mind, the power is incredible.
I don't see a lot of folks who use a pick up truck for its intended purpose being interesting in EV pick ups given the loss of range as soon as you load the bed or start towing, and I'm not sure that is an obstacle that will be over come anytime soon.
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      01-21-2023, 08:07 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Sadly, American history is no longer taught in school and the internet is so full BS that things, which are true but don't fit the narrative, are extracted from common understanding. The Government (State and Federal) doesn't "subsidize" roads, it builds and maintains roads using the excise tax that it placed on gasoline and diesel fuel. The shit people do not learn just amazes me sometimes.
Lots of changes in America in the last 60 or 70 years. Weíve abolished self responsibility and almost made it offensive to encourage people to be self reliant and self responsible. Every great empire collapses in the end and itís always from the same thing. Moral decay. We are definitely finished. Itís just not over yet.

I still like what Wyoming is doing. Itís countering what other state and federal governments are doing. I think itís hilarious. Itís too bad itís so cold there.
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      01-21-2023, 08:13 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Itís only shortsighted if YOU BELIEVE in the reasons why 30% of the politicians are doing everything in their power to eliminate oil. I donít. Nobody I know does. Not one business person I know and not one friend or family member I know does. Obviously, the majority of people in Wyoming donít either. So there we are.
Then you and everybody you know have your heads firmly in the sand, you can pretend everything is peachy just the way it is, you can reassure yourselves that a major shift isn't imminent but it IS going to happen all the same, with or without your awareness.
I'll say it again, change is the only constant, get use to it.
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      01-21-2023, 08:45 AM   #33
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I don't see a lot of folks who use a pick up truck for its intended purpose being interesting in EV pick ups given the loss of range as soon as you load the bed or start towing, and I'm not sure that is an obstacle that will be over come anytime soon.
True enough but battery tech is evolving, some new advancements with lithium metal look very promising. I don't mean to appear to be an EV disciple, I don't own an EV and probably never will but the writing is on the wall, our beloved ICE's are going to be pushed aside soon enough.
"I don't see a lot of folks who use a pick up truck for its intended purpose"
So true, pick ups have become the new personal vehicle.
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      01-21-2023, 08:49 AM   #34
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Then you and everybody you know have your heads firmly in the sand, you can pretend everything is peachy just the way it is, you can reassure yourselves that a major shift isn't imminent but it IS going to happen all the same, with or without your awareness.
I'll say it again, change is the only constant, get use to it.
If that were true, then people would take a lot more action. Let me put it this way. Unless you eliminate all gas powered products from your life, eliminate electricity to your house and completely live off the grid, Iím not going to take you seriously on this subject. Your opinion is meaningless. I always find it amusing that the most outspoken people about climate change are the ones who fly the most private jets and own the most yachts. Donít lecture me about smoking being bad with a cigarette in your mouth.
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      01-21-2023, 09:00 AM   #35
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And the winner of the award for "Most logical fallacies in a single post" goes to...
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      01-21-2023, 09:42 AM   #36
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Who is going to pay for the cost of new EV infrastructure?
How will the revenue be collected for the cost of new EV infrastructure?
Who pays for the building of new gas stations?
Do State's rights trump Federalism?
Where does the power come from to charge EVs?
Is child slave labor used to mine lithium and other rare earth minerals used to make EVs?
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      01-21-2023, 09:44 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
What is the point you're making here? It isn't clear...

If you're going to keep suggesting, as you have been, that the government shouldn't be involved and it should be driven by market "demand" alone. Then government shouldn't be subsidizing oil, roads, etc.

It isn't "government should subsidize the things I like, but not the things I don't".
Exactly. A lot of hypocrisy going around. I have a neighbor who periodically flies a Gadsden flag ("Don't tread on me") which symbolizes getting government out of regulating citizens and on other days puts up signs saying "Homes not Hotels") asking the legislature to ban overnight stays. He never has both out on the same day so I have concluded that he knows they are entirely inconsistent and doesn't care.
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      01-21-2023, 10:00 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Marcoose View Post
Akin to small liberal cities banning gas cooktops. Silly people making silly statements.
As a reaction to previous silly statements.
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      01-21-2023, 10:24 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The Government doesn't subsidize roads. Where do people get this understanding? The gas tax pays for roads. "Subsidizing" is the absence of taxing, not the generation of taxation. The Government subsidizes oil for a myriad of reasons that benefits national security to supporting the economy by reducing the prices of products that rely on petrochemicals, which is nearly everything one buys or needs in life; from food, clothing, housing, electricity, and God say it, clean air and health care.

EV tax credits are targeted taxes that do not benefit the whole of society as does a federal subsidy to the oil industry. The point is the oil industry doesn't exist because of oil subsidies, it makes products less expensive. I think it is a fair argument to make the EV marketplace via the artificial financial support of Tesla and now all other manufacturers exists only because of the help it got from Governments worldwide. Had not there been the existence of underlying support of conversion from ICE to EV supported by nearly every Governmental body across the planet, I doubt the level of capital investment in Tesla via its over-inflated stock price would have ever materialized.
Would you please stop making sense and stating facts? Youíre going to annoy some of these people.

Also, donít forget itís not just subsidies. Itís actual laws that are being passed. These laws are forcing auto manufacturers to switch.
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      01-21-2023, 11:06 AM   #40
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DavesZupraZ4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anything is a logical fallacy to the rich and wealthy when it comes to being equal with everyone else.

I would know I was born into wealth, but willingly cut myself off from my corrupt family. Money corrupts people fuk that
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      01-21-2023, 11:18 AM   #41
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Any chance you are married to an American chick, last name Markle?
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      01-21-2023, 12:28 PM   #42
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Itís actual laws that are being passed. These laws are forcing auto manufacturers to switch.
Previous laws include, among many, seatbelts, ABS, airbags, third brake light, tempered glass, back up cameras, rear mirrors, bumpers, catalytic converters and fuel efficiency. None have bankrupted the auto industry. All have made better products. And even with mandates and consumer support, the auto industry still cheats. (Speaking to you VW.)

Capitalism, in its pure form, sucks. What we have in the west, this hybrid capitalism/socialism system, coupled with a semi-democratic regime, is the best weíve come up with. We wouldnít have or be on the internet if it werenít for it. Rejoice!
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      01-21-2023, 02:15 PM   #43
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Most all of those "laws" were options created by automakers before the options were mandated. For example: seat belts, ABS, tempered glass, backup cams, rearview mirrors, bumpers, crumple zones, lane centering, crash avoidance braking, blind-spot monitoring, and fuel efficiency. You maybe could argue emission standards, but that was really California, not the Feds. What is socialistic about the US? Please don't answer Police and First Responders....
Negative, Ghost Rider. Whilst one manufacture had come up with this or that feature, it was a law that socialised it for all of us.

Socialism in America? Easy: armed forces, libraries, hospitals, churches, roads, bridges, parks, beaches, rivers, dams, weather forecast, jet engines, air traffic control, internet, rural loans, sewage, potable water, shelters, corporate bailouts, corporate loans, prisons, vaccines, pastures, electric power, grants, loans, loan forgiveness, food stamps, social security, Medicare, space programme, etc. Just to name a few. And then the heavily subsidised industries, oil and auto to begin with. Every time you utter ĎMurica First, thereís a socialised dollar behind it. It could be better. Amen.
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      01-21-2023, 02:52 PM   #44
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Drives: 2016 sDrive35is
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: San Francisco, CA

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I specifically did not mention police and first responders. But calling me Ďinterneterí is classic kettle-pot. You won F30. You won !
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