[bimmer_335]

Originally Posted by cjg

Yes you are wrong. I read the NHTSA report, which I will attach for your reading pleasure. Sorry if this will take away from some of your lawsuits. You should really get informed before you spew BS like this. You give lawyers a bad name.

stay relevant or ....

[roberts5831]

Originally Posted by bimmer_335

stay relevant or ....

+1 this is a great thread any updates arguru??

[335ikiller]

Anyone who has any doubts about BMW denying known repeatable and serious failures doesn't know the history of BMW.

From the HPFP of the 335i to the rod bearing failures of the early E46 M3, BMW corporate's default mode is "blame customer first, ask questions later".

cjg - you have several legitimate questions about how this failure can possibly happen, but there is no need to be inflammatory towards the original poster who has taken a lot of time to keep up updated about the situation and to try to answer questions. Like it or not, we only have one side of the story here and it's a bit disingenuous to try to discredit the only person sharing any information in the whole ordeal. All the talk about the SUA issue are completely off topic and IMO should be removed.

Now about the specifics of how exactly the active steering could fail and what the consequences would be, I'm sure that is information the OP would like to know (and to have fixed on his car) but unfortunately without BMW cooperating with revealing information from the diagnosis we may never know.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by 335ikiller

Anyone who has any doubts about BMW denying known repeatable and serious failures doesn't know the history of BMW.

You mean like Nikasil blocks (I think that was one), plastic water pump impellers, and subframe mounts tearing the unibody to pieces, just to name a few...

No... Not MY precious BMW...


To be fair though, if we look hard enough, pretty much every automaker has these skeletons in their closets... In the end, they care more about the bottom line than their individual customers. This is a cold, hard fact, and should absolutely be expected.

[MDyDinanM]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

You mean like Nikasil blocks (I think that was one), plastic water pump impellers, and subframe mounts tearing the unibody to pieces, just to name a few...

No... Not MY precious BMW...


To be fair though, if we look hard enough, pretty much every automaker has these skeletons in their closets... In the end, they care more about the bottom line than their individual customers. This is a cold, hard fact, and should absolutely be expected.

lol, it's not fair at all. If not for the rise in social media, etc, we the "little people" wouldn't be able to expose such problems.

Its up to us to expose those skeletons in the closets and force them to do the right thing.

You are right, they care about the bottom line, and if corporations don't change, hopefully we as customers won't buy their products forcing them to make an attitude adjustment.

They're leverage is they build something the public wants. Our leverage is media exposure, social media, networking, consumer advocacy groups/sites, and the ability to air their dirty laundry to the masses should something occur.

Its a David and Goliath battle, but every now and then the little guy, with perseverance, can win.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

lol, it's not fair at all. If not for the rise in social media, etc, we the "little people" wouldn't be able to expose such problems.

Its up to us to expose those skeletons in the closets and force them to do the right thing.

You are right, they care about the bottom line, and if corporations don't change, hopefully we as customers won't buy their products forcing them to make an attitude adjustment.

They're leverage is they build something the public wants. Our leverage is media exposure, social media, networking, consumer advocacy groups/sites, and the ability to air their dirty laundry to the masses should something occur.

Its a David and Goliath battle, but every now and then the little guy, with perseverance, can win.

We are most definitely on the same page.

I should have prefaced the "to be fair" paragraph to reflect the fact that it was composed specifically in response to the people saying that because of this situation he should switch to <insert brandX here>.

I should have provided better context. It is NOT OK for any of them to do it, regardless of how many do it. However, to suggest another brand is guaranteed not to put OP through this again is a bad suggestion.

[weq92f]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

You mean like Nikasil blocks (I think that was one), plastic water pump impellers, and subframe mounts tearing the unibody to pieces, just to name a few...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/images...s/offtopic.gif

Oh yeah and ( from my E39 540 days )...
radiator failures ( plastic tanks )
expansion tank failures ( plastic )
ABS/DTC module fail ( $$ )
Ignition switch causing electrical gremlins
Random electrical gremlins
55 mph shimmy due to early worn thrust arms

...Still the ultimate driving machine though!!!

[TXAutoLaw]

Originally Posted by mdyaman

lol, it's not fair at all. If not for the rise in social media, etc, we the "little people" wouldn't be able to expose such problems.

Its up to us to expose those skeletons in the closets and force them to do the right thing.

You are right, they care about the bottom line, and if corporations don't change, hopefully we as customers won't buy their products forcing them to make an attitude adjustment.

They're leverage is they build something the public wants. Our leverage is media exposure, social media, networking, consumer advocacy groups/sites, and the ability to air their dirty laundry to the masses should something occur.

Its a David and Goliath battle, but every now and then the little guy, with perseverance, can win.

+1 This is exactly why I do what I do for a living.

[Quisp]

It is interesting to read the various positions on these types of things. There are som who support taking action, even legal action. There are others who say iit(insert problem or defect) is not such a big deal and to jsut live with it or it is just the way the car is and there are those that say legal action is overkill and making something out of nothing oir just trying for quick bucks.
If there is a problem with someting that was paid for, no matter how much or how little you paid, why would you not do something if there is someething wrong? If you receive some type of service and it is not what it should have been why wouldnt you do something? That reenforces the behavior and iot will them continue.. By doing something it holds them accountable to some standard and lets them know that substandard goods and services are not acceptable.
By doing nothing the level of quality and service will slowly drop because we allow it to happen. A lot of people say that the only people to win in a legal action are the lawyers. Maybe they are the olnly ones who get the cash but in a case like this or the fuel pump or any other product defect situation everyone gets some benefit even if it isnt cash or a new car.
Damn that sounds so fricking corny .but it is true. Feel like i should be waving a flag or wearing a red white and blue sparkle suit. OK, who took my lucky charms? ( See what lack of sugar does to a person)

[dj]

Just taking note of this thread today. I've read through a lot, and it is a lot to take in.

No matter what the true nature of the events that happened with this vehicle, I'm struck by the seeming immaturity, and lack of practical sense and professionalism, of the dealership. Seems they could learn a lot about how to engage customers in a more effective way.

I'm a professional at a large and reputable organization with a lot of contact with consumers, where stakes with individuals are much higher. Even if arguru had behaved in an unseemly way with the dealership staff, although I have no reason to believe that he did, they could really benefit from some basic interpersonal skills, including emotion-handling (the customer's, and their own).

In my field of work, the risk of being sued is directly related to the quality of the relationship, not the technical aspects of things or whether there is any true liability. In my institution, threat of a law suit costs about $15K, before anything even happens. Sure is a lot easier and cheaper to work on maintaining a good relationship with people. I can't imagine the "cost" of all this to the dealership: lawyer fees, employee time, and the damage to their reputation.

I hope the parties involved can find a way to resolve this.

Best of Luck!

[djdownfawl]

BMW OF MORRISTOWN, MORRISTOWN, NJ.

Very unprofessional and bad service.
Diagnosed car incorrectly.

Said - Air compressor, condensor, and hydrater are bad.
Quoted me $3,400.

Got checked by other mechanic, nothing was wrong got car fixed for $150.

Thanks

[jonnyjon123]

Sucks

[stefan]

Arguru: was the 3rd party shop able to determine when the codes related to steering failure would have been initially tripped? This would allow us to rule out any post-accident codes. As I understand it, here is the timeline..

- CEL shows up
- Take to dealership; everything is "fine"
- Steering fails on street
- Return to dealership; refuse to acknowledge fault
- Check with third party; reveal OBD codes related to steering fault

[networkn]

Originally Posted by nbkkvv5

+1
If anything its time for arguru to get legal representation and let his lawyer subpoena Penske Automotive for all written and electronic records relating to this issue. They are a big corporation and there’s no way they will ever release information to arguru directly.

Agreed.

[matutino]

Suscribed.

[Sam335ix]

Originally Posted by djdownfawl

BMW OF MORRISTOWN, MORRISTOWN, NJ.

Very unprofessional and bad service.
Diagnosed car incorrectly.

Said - Air compressor, condensor, and hydrater are bad.
Quoted me $3,400.

Got checked by other mechanic, nothing was wrong got car fixed for $150.

Thanks

For every honest mechanic there are 1000 dishonest mechanics!

[DnA Diesel]

Doing a little Active Steering design review and I can foresee at least two failure modes that would affect steering: separation (axially) of the electric stepper motor gear from the motor shaft, which would physically disconnect the steering wheel from the front wheels; and mis-registration of the motor's centralized position through a position controller failure (which could be intermittent or permanent). I suspect the BMW AS system is using a Hybrid (variable-reluctance / permanent magnet) motor as they provide the greatest balance between output torque and stepper resolution. I'm more familiar with other types of transportation control systems, but it would be interesting to see what the MTBF on motor/controller assembly is, and what the various failure modes occurrence rates were calculated to be.

From an electrical engineering perspective, from what I've seen of the design of the BMW AS system, I believe that the anomalous behaviour that arguru describes is at least POSSIBLE.

Regards
D.

[AndreyT]

Originally Posted by DnA Diesel

Doing a little Active Steering design review and I can foresee at least two failure modes that would affect steering: separation (axially) of the electric stepper motor gear from the motor shaft, which would physically disconnect the steering wheel from the front wheels;

Depends on what you mean by "separation".

The stepper motor gear is a worm gear. A worm drive, by nature, is not reversible, which means that as long as the worm gear remains physically in place (engaged to the rest of the AS diff), the connection between the steering wheel and the front wheel is maintained. Basically, the presence of the worm gear is already enough to keep the AS diff from freewheeling.

In order to physically disconnect the steering wheel from the front wheels you'd need to physically extract the worm gear (disengage it and throw it away). Simply disconnecting it from the stepper motor (if that's what you meant by "separation") is not enough.

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by AndreyT

Depends on what you mean by "separation".

The stepper motor gear is a worm gear. A worm drive, by nature, is not reversible, which means that as long as the worm gear remains physically in place (engaged to the rest of the AS diff), the connection between the steering wheel and the front wheel is maintained. Basically, the presence of the worm gear is already enough to keep the AS diff from freewheeling.

In order to physically disconnect the steering wheel from the front wheels you'd need to physically extract the worm gear (disengage it and throw it away). Simply disconnecting it from the stepper motor (if that's what you meant by "separation") is not enough.

Yes, the stepper motor assembly (end cover, for lack of a better term) probably would retain the worm gear even if the connection with the motor shaft became separated, so that failure mode is less likely.

However, based on what the OP described (veering, wheel greatly offset from centralized position), I still think that a motor position controller failure would be capable of causing the described behaviour of the vehicle. In aircraft flight control systems, it is called a 'hardover', and in some cases, can result in aircraft controllability issues that are cause for a "shorts cleaning" after landing...been there done that, so in no way would I rule out the same thing from happening to a car. I'd like to know how the AS controller logic embodies the stepper motor limits. If it's electronic, through the stepper position controller circuitry, that wouldn't give me as much of a warm fuzzy as having actually limit microswitches within the assembly to disable the stepper if it servoed enough in one direction to cause the steering column wiring to bind.

My belief remains that what the OP described is POSSIBLE.

Regards
D.

[dliu3]

Originally Posted by arguru

It was a long day yesterday guys so I didn't get any time to post updates, however, I did go ahead and take captain's advice and have a third party repair shop read the codes.

As you'd expect, you were all right! a total of six fault codes when they pulled up the car's recent history!.. ALL of which posed safety hazards.

See below:



It should be worth mentioning that none of these codes had anything at all to do with an "emissions" issue. Which if you don't remember, was the reason the dealership stated that they turned off the warning lights.

This was sent yesterday to the North Scottsdale BMW dealership, Penske Automotive's lawyers, and BMWNA. So far, no response.

Saw the post on Jalopnik figured I would chime in.
Full disclosure: I am an engineer working for an auto supplier.

Just a quick glance at the failure codes, most of them are related to the electronic brake system (DSC in BMW terms I suppose). Typically, electronic brake systems utilize a steering wheel angle sensor but do not take over your steering. If there was indeed a failure in the system(e.g wheel speed sensor failure), DSC and ABS should be disabled because the computer does not have the necessary information to determine what is going on with the vehicle (the fail-safe mechanism that some have mentioned).

When you were veering off the highway, did you feel the vehicle attempting to apply brake pressure to any of your wheels?

I am very interested to find out the root cause of this problem. Please keep us posted and I am glad that you are ok.

[driverman]

We're all enthusiasts and the vast majority of us sympathize with arguru's situation, but let's try to GUESS what's going on at the dealership and BMW given the info arguru has provided ....

Dealership:
- Consult attorney. Follow his/her advice, which is:
-- Don't talk to arguru publicly or privately.
-- Find out what happened but keep results private.
-- Stall. Wait for the flurry of activity to go away.

BMW:
- Ask engineers to investigate incident.
- Don't say anything until the investigation is complete.
- If a flaw in the design is found:
-- ask engineering team to come up with a fix
-- thoroughly test fix
-- ask engineering team to come up with probabilities for future failures
-- estimate cost of recall to correct problem (#cars effected * cost per car)
-- determine if any previous incidents could have been caused by same problem
-- ask legal team to estimate potential liability consequences
-- ask sales & marketing to estimate consequences of hit to reputation (safety issues freak people out)
-- estimate cost of doing nothing
-- conduct management meeting(s) to decide how to handle

All of these things take lots of time.

The bottom line is that arguru's best hope of resolution is BMW. If BMW is saying: "We are investigating", that seems reasonable. It could take months.

If this was an easy problem to identify and fix, the problem would have never made it into production. It's these "low probability / high consequence" possibilities that drive engineers nuts.

[DnA Diesel]

Originally Posted by driverman

We're all enthusiasts and the vast majority of us sympathize with arguru's situation, but let's try to GUESS what's going on at the dealership and BMW given the info arguru has provided ....

Dealership:
- Consult attorney. Follow his/her advice, which is:
-- Don't talk to arguru publicly or privately.
-- Find out what happened but keep results private.
-- Stall. Wait for the flurry of activity to go away.

BMW:
- Ask engineers to investigate incident.
- Don't say anything until the investigation is complete.
- If a flaw in the design is found:
-- ask engineering team to come up with a fix
-- ask engineering team to come up with probabilities for future failures
-- estimate cost of recall to correct problem (#cars effected * cost per car)
-- determine if any previous incidents could have been caused by same problem
-- ask legal team to estimate potential liability consequences
-- ask sales & marketing to estimate consequences of hit to reputation (safety issues freak people out)
-- estimate cost of doing nothing
-- conduct management meeting(s) to decide how to handle

All of these things take lots of time.

The bottom line is that arguru's best hope of resolution is BMW. If BMW is saying: "We are investigating", that seems reasonable. It could take months.

If this was an easy problem to identify and fix, the problem would have never made it into production. It's these "low probability / high consequence" possibilities that drive engineers nuts.

+1

I bet the guys in Munich are taking this one very seriously and the blue bits above, even if to review past design work on AS, let alone arguru's case, is going to take some time.

Regards
D.