[iScream]

Originally Posted by Firepriest

The paper goes through all the concepts and theories behind how and what they did with the turbo control and fuel/spark management in order to get the performance out of the engine. I found it interesting, and possibly useful the cause of eliminating lag, that the engineers that designed the engine intended on keeping the waste gates closed at idle in order to reduce the turbo lag. Then 29.2 came out and keeps the waste gates open at idle to reduce waste gate rattling noise. This is just proof that the engineers at BMW knew that keeping the waste gates open at idle would introduce lag.

Right, so I am wondering if there is a way to get that graph, directly from data from a pre-29.2 335i, and then the same test run on a 29.2 335i. That, along with that whitepaper, would be a smoking gun and practical slam dunk on a bait and switch case.

[marell01]

Pavel: Any news regarding your enginefailure?

[Manboy]

Originally Posted by marell01

Pavel: Any news regarding your enginefailure?

Nada.
I have actually decided to move on with my life and just let the car sit at the dealers compound. I'm already looking forward to my new Audi 2.0T. They can do whatever they want with the 335i.

I don't think this b/s is woth any more of my time, just to bad I will take the hit on selling after just 3 months, but at least I can now sleep at nights.

/P

[paltomare]

Here's an update of my situation for those interested. I brought my car in today for the lag issue as suggested by my shop foreman. During a test ride he noticed long crank times (I had noticed this too but I'm more focused on the lag issue at this time), anyway he is changing my HPFP today.

According to my shop foreman, BMW released an email today about v.31. It is available via DVD and should be shipped to west coast dealers by Monday. As I am told, major s.w releases (29 > 30 > 31, etc.) happen via DVD quarterly and smaller updates happen via online monthly (29.2 > 30.02, etc.). The sad news is that the only point mentioned in the email from BMW is that v.31 fixes an issue with 1 Series alarms, nothing about lag.

Here's the better news, he did receive a response from the Regional Tech regarding my complaint of lag introduced with my recent s/w upgrade to 30.02. The RT and his boss in charge of technical oversight for North America are aware of the issue and UNOFFICIALLY told my shop foreman that BMW is aware of the problem but the lag fix did not make it in time for v.31; it will be corrected on v.32 due in Dec.

I'm just relaying what was told to me today; I believe my shop foreman is sincere in trying to help me with this; just not so sure about the higher ups.

I'll pickup my car later today.

pa

[Cobu]

December !!! Man I so hope you're wrong about timing and that BMW will just do the f'n fix for the lag via online update.

[MVested]

Originally Posted by Firepriest

Some interesting information from SAE paper 2007-01-1560 on the N54 engine.

I have watched this thread since its birth, and this is the first piece of true evidence that will be of use. Thank you for finding and sharing this.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by Firepriest

The paper goes through all the concepts and theories behind how and what they did with the turbo control and fuel/spark management in order to get the performance out of the engine. I found it interesting, and possibly useful the cause of eliminating lag, that the engineers that designed the engine intended on keeping the waste gates closed at idle in order to reduce the turbo lag. Then 29.2 came out and keeps the waste gates open at idle to reduce waste gate rattling noise. This is just proof that the engineers at BMW knew that keeping the waste gates open at idle would introduce lag.

+1

[BmwFanFL]

Originally Posted by paltomare

Here's an update of my situation for those interested. I brought my car in today for the lag issue as suggested by my shop foreman. During a test ride he noticed long crank times (I had noticed this too but I'm more focused on the lag issue at this time), anyway he is changing my HPFP today.

According to my shop foreman, BMW released an email today about v.31. It is available via DVD and should be shipped to west coast dealers by Monday. As I am told, major s.w releases (29 > 30 > 31, etc.) happen via DVD quarterly and smaller updates happen via online monthly (29.2 > 30.02, etc.). The sad news is that the only point mentioned in the email from BMW is that v.31 fixes an issue with 1 Series alarms, nothing about lag.

Here's the better news, he did receive a response from the Regional Tech regarding my complaint of lag introduced with my recent s/w upgrade to 30.02. The RT and his boss in charge of technical oversight for North America are aware of the issue and UNOFFICIALLY told my shop foreman that BMW is aware of the problem but the lag fix did not make it in time for v.31; it will be corrected on v.32 due in Dec.

I'm just relaying what was told to me today; I believe my shop foreman is sincere in trying to help me with this; just not so sure about the higher ups.

I'll pickup my car later today.

pa

Good and bad news in this thread the last couple of days. At least BMW seems to be acknowledging the problem.

I've avoided the update, but think I have HPFP problems and don't want to chance a visit to the dealer for fear they will [unnecessarily] update the software along with HPFP. I've made more 'issue' trips to the dealer in 6 months than with two Lexus cars over 7 years -- annoying.

This crap [and the anti-tune war and countermeasures] makes me regret owning a BMW. Next time it will be an Audi or Benz -- I don't think I'll own this car the 3-4 years I'd anticipated.

[imoksoami]

Originally Posted by MVested

I have watched this thread since its birth, and this is the first piece of true evidence that will be of use. Thank you for finding and sharing this.

From a poster on bimmerfest
'There is clearly a difference in the updated software. Those with the Vishnu PROcede installed can view the change in wastegate duty cycle on the data logging software. Basically the wastegates stay open longer causing the lag people are feeling.'

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B111307g.htm

No lag statement by BMW
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...3+feH/dAhfcw==

[angler]

how do you know what software version you have? my 335xi was a july 08 build. thanks

[hor335i]

Originally Posted by paltomare

As I am told, major s.w releases (29 > 30 > 31, etc.) happen via DVD quarterly and smaller updates happen via online monthly (29.2 > 30.02, etc.).

Hmmm... if that is the case, would it be safe to assume that the dealers will have "archive" copies of software prior to 29.2 on DVD that they could theoretically roll back to?

[rubber_ducky]

Originally Posted by hor335i

Hmmm... if that is the case, would it be safe to assume that the dealers will have "archive" copies of software prior to 29.2 on DVD that they could theoretically roll back to?

Even if they have the physical DVD, it doesn't necessarily mean they can roll back the version.

Though they did do this for someone in this forum.

So the answer to your question is: yes. maybe.

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by angler

how do you know what software version you have? my 335xi was a july 08 build. thanks

You can't, since no iDrive menu shows version numbers. If if was a july 08 build, it originally had v26.x or v27.x, but can have been updated in the meantime while in the shop.

Originally Posted by rubber_ducky

Even if they have the physical DVD, it doesn't necessarily mean they can roll back the version.

Though they did do this for someone in this forum.

So the answer to your question is: yes. maybe.

This has been discussed in detail not so long ago. Maybe we should start a Wiki on this?

Short answer: Yes, they did a rollback for me, with a special engineering version not generally available to dealers. Even if the dealer has an older Progman version, the software just won't do anything on a car with more recent software. And no, they won't do it again.

All we can hope for is a new upgrade version which fixes the problem. Now it seems that v31 is not what we had hoped for and we may have to wait until december (which I find unacceptable although I'm not affected any more). I still got no definitive answer on v31 from my shop's foreman, the engineer in charge for the DME software is on vacation. He will get back to me when he knows more.

BTW: The SAE paper really proves what we all assumed: That changed wastegate duty in low RPM introduces lag. And now it even seems clear that there is no triggering condition, either. 335i people that have this software and don't see lag should get used to the thought that they paid too much - a 328i would have sufficed.

[clivem2]

Originally Posted by clivem2

I've just picked up my new 335i today. I've only done 220 miles in it so far so I'm not being brutal with the engine. Also it's a UK car so it may have a European emissions map.

The car is a July build, it has V30.0.2 installed. At the end of my journey I tried to assess lag. In 4th/5th/6th from low revs (1,000 or 2,000) and the throttle shut, when I I apply about half throttle the lag seems to be around 0.5 sec, for sure I get a turbo pull, I haven't tried exceeding 3,300 rpm when doing this yet, maybe I'll get a much bigger pull but the lag doesn't seem to be of the type described in this thread. It's early days yet, a few more days with the car are needed.

I've just driven my new car from cold. The throttle response at low revs is immediate. It seems like my recent build with V30.0.2 does not resolve the lag issue.

What really matters here is how the issue is handled. I could live with being told the issue will be fixed in V32 (Dec), being open and honest is the key. Being secretive and disingenuous leads to deep dissatisfaction.

[ezatnova]

Originally Posted by paltomare

Here's an update of my situation for those interested. I brought my car in today for the lag issue as suggested by my shop foreman. During a test ride he noticed long crank times (I had noticed this too but I'm more focused on the lag issue at this time), anyway he is changing my HPFP today.

According to my shop foreman, BMW released an email today about v.31. It is available via DVD and should be shipped to west coast dealers by Monday. As I am told, major s.w releases (29 > 30 > 31, etc.) happen via DVD quarterly and smaller updates happen via online monthly (29.2 > 30.02, etc.). The sad news is that the only point mentioned in the email from BMW is that v.31 fixes an issue with 1 Series alarms, nothing about lag.

Here's the better news, he did receive a response from the Regional Tech regarding my complaint of lag introduced with my recent s/w upgrade to 30.02. The RT and his boss in charge of technical oversight for North America are aware of the issue and UNOFFICIALLY told my shop foreman that BMW is aware of the problem but the lag fix did not make it in time for v.31; it will be corrected on v.32 due in Dec.

I'm just relaying what was told to me today; I believe my shop foreman is sincere in trying to help me with this; just not so sure about the higher ups.

I'll pickup my car later today.

pa

Palatomare, thanks so much for the great info and details. Let's hope your guy knows his stuff. Although he's saying that V31 isn't the ticket (probably just more anti tune measures, ha), at least he is saying they know about it and that it's in V32. If we can hear this from another source or two, I'll actually believe it. Hell, I may even put the POS in storage and rent a Kia to save on gas in the meantime, then take it out of storage for V32 in 3+ months.

[ezatnova]

Any update from you King? We're anxious to hear more details (exhaust note, confirmation of what the dealer did exactly, etc etc).

[Kruz]

Originally Posted by meyergru

You can't, since no iDrive menu shows version numbers. If if was a july 08 build, it originally had v26.x or v27.x, but can have been updated in the meantime while in the shop.

Responses like this and 50 page threads to sort through without a clear summary or an attempt at organization are likely causes of this issue falling on deaf ears at BMWNA.

It's all heresay and has been since the start in their eyes. We are all on the same side here and seeking the best information so enough of the already.

[Prof3ssor]

Sorry for the negative outlook on this matter but I do not think they are going to resolve the lag issue without replacing parts on our cars and that is not going to happen. They changed this for a reason as the car was not able to handle the wastegates being closed and basically applied a band-aid to avoid warranty repairs and replacing parts. I am one of the biggest supporters on this topic but I am not getting myself all worked up until there is proof that a fix is released.

[imoksoami]

Originally Posted by Prof3ssor

Sorry for the negative outlook on this matter but I do not think they are going to resolve the lag issue without replacing parts on our cars and that is not going to happen. They changed this for a reason as the car was not able to handle the wastegates being closed and basically applied a band-aid to avoid warranty repairs and replacing parts. I am one of the biggest supporters on this topic but I am not getting myself all worked up until there is proof that a fix is released.

Exactly. Changing the software back to pre 29.2 would bring the wastegate rattle back into play and I seriously doubt they are going to do that.

[drwtsn32]

Just curious, but how many actually experience the rattle? My July/Aug 2007 build car still has the original progman (v25?) and I have never heard any sort of rattle.

[Kerosene Hat]

I've got the rattle and it's embarassing. I've held off a trip to the dealer for other issues due to the new sw issue and am "living with" the rattle - it sounds REALLY bad...and is embarrassing coming from such a high-priced car. However, those w/ the rattle may have no choice....Bubbles indicated in another thread that rattle was his first symptom of decreased mid-range boost pressure and he ultimately had to have his turbos replaced.

So, - live w/ the rattle and watch your performance suffer a slow death, or get it all over at once and get the new software. What a choice.

Hope, hope, hope that BMW does the right thing and gets performance back (or as near as possible) to the ORIGINAL levels that made enthusiasts fall in love with the N54...

[meyergru]

Originally Posted by Kruz

Responses like this and 50 page threads to sort through without a clear summary or an attempt at organization are likely causes of this issue falling on deaf ears at BMWNA.

It's all heresay and has been since the start in their eyes. We are all on the same side here and seeking the best information so enough of the already.

As I said, it really would be useful to start a Wiki on this topic. This is a forum however, and netiquette asks everyone at least to take the time and read the thread they are posting in (Remember, there is a search function for even other threads, also!).

This thread, IMHO, gets longer and more tedious to read because every 20th post a newcomer chimes in and asks the same questions, the most popular of which are:

Q: How can I know what "Progman" version I have?
A: You can't - and more technically speaking, there is no such thing as "a Progman version" on your DME. I lack interest to repeat all of that.

Q: Can't they just flash me back?
A: Although they could, they won't.

Q: But how if my dealer still has the old software?
A: No use, your car's software is newer and thus, you'll get no update. A special software is needed to downgrade which normal dealers don't get their hands on nor are they permitted to use without a BMW order to do so.

These are no rumors and it has nothing to do with BMW not trusting an internet source. It's just people knowing no netiquette.