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      03-20-2017, 10:39 PM   #1
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Light Throttle Hesitation

Hi. I'm having some issues with slight hesitation issues at very very low throttle. The car pulls fine and boosts fine with no codes when more throttle is applied. I mean really light throttle, just maintaining speed in traffic so your foot is barely moving the pedal.

I installed new genuine bmw plugs under 1k miles ago. Other than that, I had an injector go bad a few hundred miles ago. I only changed the one, my originals were index 7 I think and this was index 9, from what I read mixing early injectors should be ok.

Failing that, I'm thinking it may be worth replacing the coil packs. I'd like to do all 6 injectors and get a walnut blast as well but would like to target my money first on whatever is the most likely cause of this hesitation.

Any advice appreciated- I did try and search before posting but with no success.

Mods as follows- MHD Stage2+ 98 - Wagner Evo 1 Performance I/C - VRSF Intakes - STC dp's - BMWP Y-Pipe
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      03-20-2017, 11:22 PM   #2
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Unfortunately it's such a common issue and a broad one at that.

Most of the stuff you mentioned could in fact still be the culprit.

I've actually replaced all 6 plugs, injectors and coils at the same time and still had the hesitation. Walnut blasting is up next for me but other then that it might just be in the tune. I'm on MHD Stage 2+ myself and I swear it's in the tune. If I go back to stock I can't feel the hesitation. If I reset adaptations the hesitation goes away for a little but eventually comes back. I've also tapped the intake manifold for the Tial and that did help a little. It's actually barely noticeable probably for an average Joe but I can still feel it. I think it just comes down to process of elimination with these kind of problems.
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      03-21-2017, 05:50 AM   #3
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I found new plugs helped, but what solved it for me were new solenoids and o2 sensors/widebands
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      03-21-2017, 08:12 AM   #4
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I also had a similar hesitation/jerk on low throttle. New boost solenoids and vac lines completely fixed it for me. See my other thread.

EDIT: Felt the jerks again, so this didn't resolve it

Last edited by iCstyle; 03-22-2017 at 03:48 AM..
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      03-21-2017, 12:25 PM   #5
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Could be one of many things, especially with your amount of mods.
How many miles on the car, and how many on the injectors and other parts?
Take the plugs out and see if you smell gas. Blame the injectors leaking then. Mixing your 7s and 9s won't cause problems, though index 11 and above should be replaced as an entire bank (1-3 / 4-6) according to BMW due to calibration and construction differences.
Could change out all the coils since all 6 can be had for less than $180 from some places.
Walnut blasting with your mods may be a good idea.

I had the same problem with a 134k mile N54 I recently purchased on the cheap. I knew it needed work and I wanted to work on and learn about the platform, so I did the plugs and coils first (~25k since last change), which helped but it still stumbled some down low, especially on cold starts.
Then I did the walnut blasting which helped even more. No idea when it had been done (if ever) but it was pretty bad when I did them.
I also did the transmission fluid, which eliminated the low speed/low RPM peaky and jerky shifting, which really helped with low speed driveability. Old fluid was pitch black instead of the usual light yellow.

Then I did the injectors last since a full-throttle pull caused the #4 injector to crap out and cause a constant misfire, even at idle, the next time I started it. #4 smelled badly of gas so was definitely leaking and not metering fuel correctly. 5 of the injectors were index 7s (likely the originals), and one was index 9. Now they're all index 12s coded correctly to the DME. I also did the vacuum lines and tested the boost solenoids at that point since I didn't want to worry about anything else for awhile.

Car runs absolutely smooth now, and feels brand new. Great platform once all the usual suspects are eliminated (too bad there are so many of them).
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      03-21-2017, 12:54 PM   #6
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this has to do more with your ECU/transmission mapping rather then anything in your engine itself.

an ECU tune should solve most if not all of the low RPM hesitation.
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      03-21-2017, 01:10 PM   #7
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Thanks for the input so far- I will start off by pulling the plugs when I'm next home to see if I have any more signs of leaky injectors. My #5 injector went bad in spectacular fashion getting stuck wide open. The car wouldn't even run. Though I turned it off pretty fast so as not to wash the bore. When I took the plugs out and fired up the lpfp, I could see the fuel being thrown into the cylinder without even having the ignition on! Perhaps another is on it's way bad.

The car has just turned over to 62k miles, so it's not what I would say huge mileage, but to my knowledge it has never had a walnut blast. There aren't that many places that do it in the UK, especially not near me, but I definitely think the car would benefit from it. Is it possible something like a leaking PCV could cause a hesitation issue? Fitting an uprated one is on my list of mods along with OCC, but I want the car running right first of all.

The hesitation isn't really a jerk, more of a slight oscillation but as said, it's only under very light load. As soon as I apply more throttle, the car drives absolutely fine. The issue was still present when I was running stage 1+ but I've only noticed it since going over to version 7 maps. I'm going to do my clutch when I get home so will probably flash back to stock when I'm bedding in, so maybe I can tell more from that.
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      03-21-2017, 02:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedychuck2 View Post
Thanks for the input so far- I will start off by pulling the plugs when I'm next home to see if I have any more signs of leaky injectors. My #5 injector went bad in spectacular fashion getting stuck wide open. The car wouldn't even run. Though I turned it off pretty fast so as not to wash the bore. When I took the plugs out and fired up the lpfp, I could see the fuel being thrown into the cylinder without even having the ignition on! Perhaps another is on it's way bad.

The car has just turned over to 62k miles, so it's not what I would say huge mileage, but to my knowledge it has never had a walnut blast. There aren't that many places that do it in the UK, especially not near me, but I definitely think the car would benefit from it. Is it possible something like a leaking PCV could cause a hesitation issue? Fitting an uprated one is on my list of mods along with OCC, but I want the car running right first of all.

The hesitation isn't really a jerk, more of a slight oscillation but as said, it's only under very light load. As soon as I apply more throttle, the car drives absolutely fine. The issue was still present when I was running stage 1+ but I've only noticed it since going over to version 7 maps. I'm going to do my clutch when I get home so will probably flash back to stock when I'm bedding in, so maybe I can tell more from that.
I think we have the same exact symptoms.

I have a very very subtle oscillation on the highway. Particularly around the 60-70 MPH... very very light throttle.

Replaced:
6 Plugs
6 Injectors
6 Coils
Valve Cover / Gasket
Upgraded PCV Valve
All Vac Lines

Aside from being in the tune. The only things that are left for me are Boost solenoids, o2 sensors and walnut blasting.

I've already inspected my intake vales (50K miles) and there actually decent - not clean but decent. I've seen far worse at my mileage. I'm still leaning towards the tune but I may be able to clean it up with the above mentioned.

Right now, I don't think there is a need to spend money blindly trying to fix it. I've talked to Wedge and he think it might be 02's, although my AFR, STFT and everything else appear normal.

Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 03-21-2017 at 02:54 PM..
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      03-21-2017, 03:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
I think we have the same exact symptoms.

I have a very very subtle oscillation on the highway. Particularly around the 60-70 MPH... very very light throttle.

Replaced:
6 Plugs
6 Injectors
6 Coils
Valve Cover / Gasket
Upgraded PCV Valve
All Vac Lines

Aside from being in the tune. The only things that are left for me are Boost solenoids, o2 sensors and walnut blasting.

I've already inspected my intake vales (50K miles) and there actually decent - not clean but decent. I've seen far worse at my mileage. I'm still leaning towards the tune but I may be able to clean it up with the above mentioned.

Right now, I don't think there is a need to spend money blindly trying to fix it. I've talked to Wedge and he think it might be 02's, although my AFR, STFT and everything else appear normal.
Yes, sounds exactly the same to me. I always drop a gear to get the revs up a bit because it annoys the hell out of me, at which point the additional throttle seems to make the issue go away.

I was toying with the idea of switching to linear throttle for more control, but was concerned it may make the issue more noticeable given the larger amount of pedal travel that I will actually be able to apply very low throttle amounts.

I'm doubtful that it's boost solenoid related as you're not really running any significant boost at that rpm. I guess you could just bypass the solenoids altogether and take the car for a run. Obviously don't boost as the wastegates will never open, but it would potentially eliminate them as an issue.

I did wonder if it was issues measuring airflow at very low load? I've always wondered if a map sensor is less accurate than actually having an airflow meter, perhaps the tune highlights this weakness? But then you expect to see it in all tunes and probably the standard car too.

I'm interested to hear what wedge come up with, please keep me informed of any updates as I would like to try these on my car too. Have you tried logging during the hesitation to see if that can help point to the issue? I haven't yet but may give it a go and see if any of the figures appear to be jumping around.
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      03-21-2017, 03:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedychuck2 View Post
Yes, sounds exactly the same to me. I always drop a gear to get the revs up a bit because it annoys the hell out of me, at which point the additional throttle seems to make the issue go away.

I was toying with the idea of switching to linear throttle for more control, but was concerned it may make the issue more noticeable given the larger amount of pedal travel that I will actually be able to apply very low throttle amounts.

I'm doubtful that it's boost solenoid related as you're not really running any significant boost at that rpm. I guess you could just bypass the solenoids altogether and take the car for a run. Obviously don't boost as the wastegates will never open, but it would potentially eliminate them as an issue.

I did wonder if it was issues measuring airflow at very low load? I've always wondered if a map sensor is less accurate than actually having an airflow meter, perhaps the tune highlights this weakness? But then you expect to see it in all tunes and probably the standard car too.

I'm interested to hear what wedge come up with, please keep me informed of any updates as I would like to try these on my car too. Have you tried logging during the hesitation to see if that can help point to the issue? I haven't yet but may give it a go and see if any of the figures appear to be jumping around.
I did do some logging a few months back. I plan to re-visit the idea again. I believe when I did the logging I could not find anything distinctly wrong but I may have not gotten a good datalog on the issue cause although I can duplicate it, sometimes when in traffic it's hard to do it. I usually need a good long even straight with the light throttle and even consistent road to get it to do it. I think that's why I haven't done much more with regards to finding a solution.

I know for sure one thing temporarily fixes the issue, resetting adaptations. After I reset the adaptations it won't come back for a few days or even a little over a week and of course adding more throttle helps too.

Also it did get a lot better when I opened up the intake manifold fitting to a 1/4inch size for the Tial BOV.
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      03-21-2017, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
I did do some logging a few months back. I plan to re-visit the idea again. I believe when I did the logging I could not find anything distinctly wrong but I may have not gotten a good datalog on the issue cause although I can duplicate it, sometimes when in traffic it's hard to do it. I usually need a good long even straight with the light throttle and even consistent road to get it to do it. I think that's why I haven't done much more with regards to finding a solution.

I know for sure one thing temporarily fixes the issue, resetting adaptations. After I reset the adaptations it won't come back for a few days or even a little over a week and of course adding more throttle helps too.

Also it did get a lot better when I opened up the intake manifold fitting to a 1/4inch size for the Tial BOV.
Interesting. What happens if you reset only 1 adaptation at a time? I'm curious if just resetting the lambda adaptations might cause any changes. Could help point to a problem with that specific sensor(s).
Faulty O2 sensors have been known to cause RPM oscillations before so might be worth a try.

I'm also curious if changing things in the MHD tune, like throttle mapping, Stage 1 to 2, etc, resets all the adaptations or not too.
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      03-21-2017, 03:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob View Post
Interesting. What happens if you reset only 1 adaptation at a time? I'm curious if just resetting the lambda adaptations might cause any changes. Could help point to a problem with that specific sensor(s).
Faulty O2 sensors have been known to cause RPM oscillations before so might be worth a try.

I'm also curious if changing things in the MHD tune, like throttle mapping, Stage 1 to 2, etc, resets all the adaptations or not too.
That's a good tip. In the past, I reset them all at once. You're definitely onto something though. I'll try only resetting the Lambda only and advise. I know changes maps clears codes but I don't believe it resets adaptations per se.
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      03-21-2017, 03:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
That's a good tip. In the past, I reset them all at once. You're definitely onto something though. I'll try only resetting the Lambda only and advise. I know changes maps clears codes but I don't believe it resets adaptations per se.
Also, is it possible not following this step when clearing adaptations might be causing more eventual problems (from the DME adaptations page)?

Throttle (Throttle inputs and correlation, after reset turn ignition off and then back on, wait for 30 seconds before starting the engine)

Figure it's all worth a shot at this point.

Adaptations resets show (sic - "should") only be used if you are having a particular issue and you are troubleshooting and you want to eliminate LEARNED behavior or values from the equation as a root cause of the issue you are having. NOTE: When resetting adaptations, ensure the vehicle engine remains off, but ignition is on.
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      03-21-2017, 04:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob View Post
Also, is it possible not following this step when clearing adaptations might be causing more eventual problems (from the DME adaptations page)?

Throttle (Throttle inputs and correlation, after reset turn ignition off and then back on, wait for 30 seconds before starting the engine)

Figure it's all worth a shot at this point.

Adaptations resets show (sic - "should") only be used if you are having a particular issue and you are troubleshooting and you want to eliminate LEARNED behavior or values from the equation as a root cause of the issue you are having. NOTE: When resetting adaptations, ensure the vehicle engine remains off, but ignition is on.
I'm familiar with that issue. I remember that pesky adaptation glitch as far as 2009. When that goes bonkers you start your car and throttle just blips up and down. Only way around that is to reset again and follow that procedure of waiting.
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      03-21-2017, 04:34 PM   #15
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I left a message on the facebook MHD page asking if I should reset adaptations when I flashed from stage 1 to stage 2. Martial replied and said not to reset them and let the car adapt slowly itself. So I guess this would indicate that flashing a new map doesn't reset adaptations.
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      03-21-2017, 04:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by speedychuck2 View Post
I left a message on the facebook MHD page asking if I should reset adaptations when I flashed from stage 1 to stage 2. Martial replied and said not to reset them and let the car adapt slowly itself. So I guess this would indicate that flashing a new map doesn't reset adaptations.
Oh nice, thanks for doing that. Answers a question I had if/when I upgrade.
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      07-11-2017, 07:21 PM   #17
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I just did a bunch of work and have this issue. It's driving me crazy. I reset adaptations until I'm blue in the face and even did a full mechatronix rebuild to no avail.

Anyone find a definitive solution to this issue?
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      07-18-2017, 07:00 PM   #18
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I just did a bunch of work and have this issue. It's driving me crazy. I reset adaptations until I'm blue in the face and even did a full mechatronix rebuild to no avail.

Anyone find a definitive solution to this issue?
I'm still no further along with it. Gonna flash back to v6 when I'm home and see if it helps. I don't think it's mechatronic related because I'm 6MT
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      07-19-2017, 01:25 PM   #19
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On the V7 map i was running linear throttle which was causing a throttle surging issue at really light throttle input. I went back to stock throttle mapping and it went away. It was on a different staged map but may be worth a try.
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      07-20-2017, 10:26 AM   #20
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I have been chasing similar issues myself. I also think it is in the tune.

I've done some testing with MHD v7.1 e60 and v6.1 e40 maps and can recreate the issue quite easily with either map.

With the car in M4, if I tip into the throttle (roughly 30-40% pedal input) at 1500RPM and log out through 3500RPM I see similar throttle closures and other roughness in the logs and feel significant chop in the 2500-3000 range.

The car has fresh plugs, Eldor coils, index 12 injectors, new turbos, etc - it is well maintained and has 55k miles. No codes are being thrown.

As examples:

http://www.datazap.me/u/mwahlert/log...-31&zoom=26-70

http://www.datazap.me/u/mwahlert/log....83&tmax=62.60

I gathered some new logs yesterday with a smaller number of channels so the resolution seems to be higher. I'll upload them later.

WOT logs are clean.
http://www.datazap.me/u/mwahlert/log....80&tmax=99.60
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      07-20-2017, 12:52 PM   #21
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Are any of you guys with the hesitation also suffering a sudden surge in power with gradual throttle input?

Like you're gradually feeding in the power and all of a sudden its like the car goes full throttle?

I'm trying to get MHD/Wedge to take some note of the problem as so many of us have it. So please have a look in the MHD flasher general discussion post and post there as well.
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      07-31-2017, 10:57 AM   #22
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I changed spark plugs, turbo's, coils, injectors, all van lines, dv's, boost solenoids, wallnut blast, transmission fluid and still exact same problem that goes away a few days after adaption reset with inpa. Pure stage 2 ron102+meth with a custom tune. Runs perfect at wot. I REALY hope someone finds a fix. Just drives like crap, its like the AT cant predict what is coming so shifts at low speeds are also very wonky at times. I suspect the hpfp and/or torque convertor, because i cant think of anything else and tuner thinks it is a hardware issue
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