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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Hybrid Turbo options and comparisons



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      03-07-2016, 02:22 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Charged View Post
Found this for 335D owners, K26 turbo upgrades for M57 335D/535D LCI: https://www.facebook.com/20863359252...type=3&theater
Bigger hot side. Nice. THAT is something I'm interested in.
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      03-08-2016, 12:18 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by tuikku View Post
...
Your result is so good, that you must use some kind of additive.
Your transmission is zf6hp28, it seems to last very high torques, ++800nm easily, here are many of them.
Yes, lots of water/methanol in a ~2D map that is setup to start ramping around the point the torque curve starts to drop and increases with rpm. So injection rates increase with rpm at full fueling as well as fuel pressure sensor manipulation. This has worked exceedingly well to control EGT's and create really dense air going into the cylinders even with the stock turbo's, and also keeps the peak torque from going crazy and extends torque into the upper rpm's.

Also, I've found the external wastegate to be very beneficial for venting lots of exhaust manifold pressure and controlling turbine drive pressures and shaping the intake manifold pressure curve. I haven't been using the DDE controlled internal wastegate at all since this Fall.

Interesting info on the transmissions. I'm still cautious when applying the skinny peddle at low/mid rpm's.
TDI I don't get the comment on controlling EGTs. My water meth system always increases EGTs even at 30% meth...not a lot but still a bit hotter. Perhaps I am missing the point... EGTs acceptable relative to power generated?
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      03-08-2016, 06:36 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Chief Orman View Post
TDI I don't get the comment on controlling EGTs. My water meth system always increases EGTs even at 30% meth...not a lot but still a bit hotter. Perhaps I am missing the point... EGTs acceptable relative to power generated?
That's interesting. I'm specifically referring to peak power EGT's, not sure if that's what you're talking about as well?

I've always seen a reduction in EGT's, unless the methanol percentage and amount starts getting excessive. My experience is limited to a small sampling of diesel engines, however.

When looking at FAQ's from some water injection vendors they seem to indicate a position that mirrors my experience, that it lowers EGT's. A couple examples:
http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/169.htm
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...ionSystem.html

Would be interesting to see your logs showing an increase in EGT's with and without injection. Maybe post them in one of the water/methanol injection threads?
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      03-08-2016, 08:18 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse
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Originally Posted by Chief Orman View Post
TDI I don't get the comment on controlling EGTs. My water meth system always increases EGTs even at 30% meth...not a lot but still a bit hotter. Perhaps I am missing the point... EGTs acceptable relative to power generated?
That's interesting. I'm specifically referring to peak power EGT's, not sure if that's what you're talking about as well?

I've always seen a reduction in EGT's, unless the methanol percentage and amount starts getting excessive. My experience is limited to a small sampling of diesel engines, however.

When looking at FAQ's from some water injection vendors they seem to indicate a position that mirrors my experience, that it lowers EGT's. A couple examples:
http://www.snowperformance.net/category-s/169.htm
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...ionSystem.html

Would be interesting to see your logs showing an increase in EGT's with and without injection. Maybe post them in one of the water/methanol injection threads?
I will do that with torque pro. DWR and I had a long back and forth on this mod. I also spoke to the guys at Snow. Irrespective of Snow's website they make a big internal distinction between one of us and a pickup towing a boat over the continental divide. The Snow guy said that if I wanted to see my EGTs truly drop I needed to be under 20% methanol. Moreover, The pickup guys if pulling a heavy load up a long grade use 0 to 10% meth. Trucker's motto...meth = heat. At first this pissed me off given that Snow so prominently blathers on their site about reduced EGTs and regens which I have never experienced. At a 50/50 mix I can keep EGTs sub 900; 60% meth sub 950. Don't want to any hotter than 950 and only get that hot if I feel compelled to race an Audi. 60% meth the car absolutely hauls ass above 18psi of boost when my system starts spraying.
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      03-08-2016, 08:59 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Orman View Post
I will do that with torque pro. DWR and I had a long back and forth on this mod. I also spoke to the guys at Snow. Irrespective of Snow's website they make a big internal distinction between one of us and a pickup towing a boat over the continental divide. The Snow guy said that if I wanted to see my EGTs truly drop I needed to be under 20% methanol. Moreover, The pickup guys if pulling a heavy load up a long grade use 0 to 10% meth. Trucker's motto...meth = heat. At first this pissed me off given that Snow so prominently blathers on their site about reduced EGTs and regens which I have never experienced. At a 50/50 mix I can keep EGTs sub 900; 60% meth sub 950. Don't want to any hotter than 950 and only get that hot if I feel compelled to race an Audi. 60% meth the car absolutely hauls ass above 18psi of boost when my system starts spraying.
Oh man, that was a while back. We never did get around to getting those data logs, did we?
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      03-08-2016, 10:02 AM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Orman View Post
I will do that with torque pro. DWR and I had a long back and forth on this mod. I also spoke to the guys at Snow. Irrespective of Snow's website they make a big internal distinction between one of us and a pickup towing a boat over the continental divide. The Snow guy said that if I wanted to see my EGTs truly drop I needed to be under 20% methanol. Moreover, The pickup guys if pulling a heavy load up a long grade use 0 to 10% meth. Trucker's motto...meth = heat. At first this pissed me off given that Snow so prominently blathers on their site about reduced EGTs and regens which I have never experienced. At a 50/50 mix I can keep EGTs sub 900; 60% meth sub 950. Don't want to any hotter than 950 and only get that hot if I feel compelled to race an Audi. 60% meth the car absolutely hauls ass above 18psi of boost when my system starts spraying.
I can tell you I did a customers car with 50/50 mix DPF still installed, it would hit 1250F under really high load and after reducing it to 30/70 under the same load I saw temps below 1100F. More meth, higher EGTs
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      03-08-2016, 12:07 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
I can tell you I did a customers car with 50/50 mix DPF still installed, it would hit 1250F under really high load and after reducing it to 30/70 under the same load I saw temps below 1100F. More meth, higher EGTs
Do you think the DPF was significant to the results you saw?
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      03-08-2016, 12:48 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Bigger hot side. Nice. THAT is something I'm interested in.
Greek, is it your turn or mine to give the "this is the last mod" quote?
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      03-08-2016, 02:44 PM   #317
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Quote:
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Do you think the DPF was significant to the results you saw?
Yes, only time I have seen that high of a temp was with the hybrid setup running 1250cc/min 50/50mix, 45 psi & lots -o- fuel
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      03-09-2016, 01:55 AM   #318
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Greek, is it your turn or mine to give the "this is the last mod" quote?
All our mods are the famous "last" mod. Never stop tinkering, and really how can one resist that 481hp/860Nm at the wheels.
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      03-09-2016, 08:40 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWR
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Originally Posted by Chief Orman View Post
I will do that with torque pro. DWR and I had a long back and forth on this mod. I also spoke to the guys at Snow. Irrespective of Snow's website they make a big internal distinction between one of us and a pickup towing a boat over the continental divide. The Snow guy said that if I wanted to see my EGTs truly drop I needed to be under 20% methanol. Moreover, The pickup guys if pulling a heavy load up a long grade use 0 to 10% meth. Trucker's motto...meth = heat. At first this pissed me off given that Snow so prominently blathers on their site about reduced EGTs and regens which I have never experienced. At a 50/50 mix I can keep EGTs sub 900; 60% meth sub 950. Don't want to any hotter than 950 and only get that hot if I feel compelled to race an Audi. 60% meth the car absolutely hauls ass above 18psi of boost when my system starts spraying.
Oh man, that was a while back. We never did get around to getting those data logs, did we?
I have not forgotten!
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      04-15-2016, 12:40 PM   #320
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490hp from 335D : https://www.facebook.com/20863359252...type=3&theater

Last edited by Charged; 04-16-2016 at 01:01 AM..
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      04-15-2016, 01:15 PM   #321
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Once the snow is finally gone here in the next week or two, I'll break the D out of hibernation and will get some good datalogs of what 250cc/min of pre turbo water injection does for IAT. Now that I'm in the middle of nowhere instead of epicenter of suburbia, there's lots of empty straight country roads for datalogging .

Last edited by Whitbread; 04-15-2016 at 01:23 PM..
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      04-15-2016, 04:19 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob@BPC View Post
Yes, only time I have seen that high of a temp was with the hybrid setup running 1250cc/min 50/50mix, 45 psi & lots -o- fuel
What do you consider to be acceptable egts? I logged very high temperatures on a recent drive, with peaks in excess of 1500F.


Last edited by 335duff; 04-15-2016 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: Forgot to quote Bob
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      04-15-2016, 04:55 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitbread View Post
Once the snow is finally gone here in the next week or two, I'll break the D out of hibernation and will get some good datalogs of what 250cc/min of pre turbo water injection does for IAT. Now that I'm in the middle of nowhere instead of epicenter of suburbia, there's lots of empty straight country roads for datalogging .
I just increased my pre-compressor nozzle from 1gph (63cc) to 3gph 189cc. I look forward to your results.
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      04-15-2016, 06:53 PM   #324
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What do you consider to be acceptable egts? I logged very high temperatures on a recent drive, with peaks in excess of 1500F.

Yikes. I'd consider that to be extremely unhealthy for your engine, if those are from the OEM sensors, which are post turbo.

I took some data on manifold (pre turbo) EGT's here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=267

For Exhaust Manifold Pressures in the 54 psig range the difference from pre to post turbo were ~300F. If you're running similar EMP's and hitting ~1700 post turbo EGT's that means you're likely ~2000F in the manifold. You're damaging things and radically shortening the life of your engine components...

Here's a general guideline from a diesel tuner about manifold EGT's (some perspectives are different than his and suggest slightly higher temps are still OK): http://bankspower.com/techarticles/s...t-is-important

So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250 to 1300 F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile. Above 1300 F. things can start to get edgy. Remember, excessive EGT damage is cumulative. Over 1400 F., you're usually gambling against a stacked deck and it's only a matter of time until you lose. The higher the EGT, the shorter that time will be.
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      04-15-2016, 10:29 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Yikes. I'd consider that to be extremely unhealthy for your engine, if those are from the OEM sensors, which are post turbo.

I took some data on manifold (pre turbo) EGT's here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=267

For Exhaust Manifold Pressures in the 54 psig range the difference from pre to post turbo were ~300F. If you're running similar EMP's and hitting ~1700 post turbo EGT's that means you're likely ~2000F in the manifold. You're damaging things and radically shortening the life of your engine components...

Here's a general guideline from a diesel tuner about manifold EGT's (some perspectives are different than his and suggest slightly higher temps are still OK): http://bankspower.com/techarticles/s...t-is-important

So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250 to 1300 F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile. Above 1300 F. things can start to get edgy. Remember, excessive EGT damage is cumulative. Over 1400 F., you're usually gambling against a stacked deck and it's only a matter of time until you lose. The higher the EGT, the shorter that time will be.
Zoinks! What does that mean is wrong with the car? It is (or at least is supposed to be) completley stock. I mean, other than non bmw approved tires. I have about 55k miles, and no check engine lights.
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      04-15-2016, 10:52 PM   #326
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Looks like a reaction in the DOC/DPF is part of the story.
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      04-16-2016, 07:00 AM   #327
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Zoinks! What does that mean is wrong with the car? It is (or at least is supposed to be) completley stock. I mean, other than non bmw approved tires. I have about 55k miles, and no check engine lights.
Ah, that's good to know that you are stock. Based on that info, it appears your DPF may have been doing an active reg, which raises the temps dramatically on all those EGT sensors by injecting extra after the cumbustion phase to burn in the DOC/DPF. I'm guessing that, since your EGT's were extremely high to begin with when your speed wasn't accelerating.

Might be a good idea to make sure the car isn't doing an active regen (your EGT's shouldn't be anywhere near 1000F with flat driving when not in regen mode ... more like 400-500F for easy highway driving) and retaking this kind of data.

I'm attaching some example EGT's from my car when it was stock (and with some increasing JBD settings) for full fueling pulls as a reference.
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      04-16-2016, 02:45 PM   #328
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Thanks for the reply TDIwise! That's about what I was expecting in terms of egts, and from what I've read they shouldn't be much above 1000F even during regen. Im at the dealer right now and they say they're running diagnostics, but I don't really expect them to find anything. I will log my drive back, and also plot differential pressure in the DPF. Cheers!
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      05-11-2016, 02:09 PM   #329
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Dyno results for pre-facelift 535d with hybrid turbo

Hi guys,

After lurking around for a while in your nice forum, I decided to register and contribute some info regarding one daily driver utilizing hybrid turbo setup designed by Tuikku and engineered by Pro-Turbo, Finland.

My setup is nothing exotic, emptied stock exhaust, hybrid LP turbo with Tuikku's intake mod, bigger IC (generic Mishimoto) and tune by one of the big names in Finnish diesel-tuning scene (AJ-Tech).

The engine is currently fuel limited producing 488hp and 840Nm of torque. When increasing feed, rail-pressure collapses (rail pump mod would be needed). No smoke generation with current power level.

Further details regarding the LP turbo mod I'll leave to the inventor (Tuikku).

Dyno chart can be found behind following link: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5qXGF1oE3S8

-jarmo
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      05-11-2016, 02:20 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkela View Post
Hi guys,

After lurking around for a while in your nice forum, I decided to register and contribute some info regarding one daily driver utilizing hybrid turbo setup designed by Tuikku and engineered by Pro-Turbo, Finland.

My setup is nothing exotic, emptied stock exhaust, hybrid LP turbo with Tuikku's intake mod, bigger IC (generic Mishimoto) and tune by one of the big names in Finnish diesel-tuning scene (AJ-Tech).

The engine is currently fuel limited producing 488hp and 840Nm of torque. When increasing feed, rail-pressure collapses (rail pump mod would be needed). No smoke generation with current power level.

Further details regarding the LP turbo mod I'll leave to the inventor (Tuikku).

Dyno chart can be found behind following link: https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0V5qXGF1oE3S8

-jarmo
Interesting timing...

Are those figures at the tire of crank? Most here don't like to use dyno for comparison. Do you have any 1/4 mile or v-box, gtech or phone app data to support your dyno?

Numbers look great! Any pics?

FYI- there are companies here in the US that will modify your nozzles and injector pump. It's quick and relatively inexpensive... But, I'm sure Tuikku has a solution for you.
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