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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Potential on pump gas only?



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      01-20-2015, 03:29 PM   #1
Griff500
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Potential on pump gas only?

Good evening all.

I was wondering what potential the N54 has on 93 pump gas?

I've had my car for a while now and went with a Cobb tune shortly after buying, this made a huge difference and makes the car great fun.

I've got lots of parts ready to fit in the spring; VSRF downpipes, VSRF 7" intercooler, BMS OCC, Forge diverter valves, BMS chargepipe, RB PCV (also LSD, lots of suspension mods, VMR rims, PSS tyres)

I've recently changed the plugs and coils and will be walnut blasting soon.

So with these mods in mind can anyone give me an idea of power/torque once I've had a custom tune (PTF etc).

I don't have access to E85 and would prefer not to run Meth.

Also what would the potential be if running an RB/Vargas turbo setup? Worth the outlay without E85?
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      01-20-2015, 04:56 PM   #2
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I am also interested to know I have all the above installed with stock frames 93 PTF tune and am getting 336hp awhp. Is that about right or should I be getting more?
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      01-20-2015, 05:30 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff500 View Post
Good evening all.

I was wondering what potential the N54 has on 93 pump gas?

I've had my car for a while now and went with a Cobb tune shortly after buying, this made a huge difference and makes the car great fun.

I've got lots of parts ready to fit in the spring; VSRF downpipes, VSRF 7" intercooler, BMS OCC, Forge diverter valves, BMS chargepipe, RB PCV (also LSD, lots of suspension mods, VMR rims, PSS tyres)

I've recently changed the plugs and coils and will be walnut blasting soon.

So with these mods in mind can anyone give me an idea of power/torque once I've had a custom tune (PTF etc).

I don't have access to E85 and would prefer not to run Meth.

Also what would the potential be if running an RB/Vargas turbo setup? Worth the outlay without E85?
Realistically, going with RB/Vargas on pump only is not going to yield much if anything at all over stock turbos power wise. They are nicer built and may last longer without the wastegate issues, although nothing has really been proven with regards to that claim yet.
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      01-20-2015, 05:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuDai View Post
Realistically, going with RB/Vargas on pump only is not going to yield much if anything at all over stock turbos power wise. They are nicer built and may last longer without the wastegate issues, although nothing has really been proven with regards to that claim yet.
i would second this.... you would be best going with a single or the stage2+. as to exactly what you would get its hard to say. iv learned that octane means everything when it comes to those huge numbers you see everyone talking about
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      01-20-2015, 09:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuDai View Post
Realistically, going with RB/Vargas on pump only is not going to yield much if anything at all over stock turbos power wise. They are nicer built and may last longer without the wastegate issues, although nothing has really been proven with regards to that claim yet.
Weird...I noticed a significant increase after installation of my RBs and I only run 93 pump gas. RBs were well worth the money and my stock turbos were working fine.
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      01-20-2015, 10:02 PM   #6
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I have a custom PTF tune with virtually identical mods. A custom tune is ESSENTIAL to getting the most out of your mods, the OTS maps are just to get the car going with generic parameters. A custom tune will take full advantage of your supporting mods and it's a night and day difference.

Check out my thread for more info here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1056023

My car is FBO on 91 octane and maxes out around 350whp and 415wtq. Note this dyno was done on 93 octane, but my car is actually tuned for 91 so I am not maximizing the gains from the higher octane which some report to be as much as 20-25whp worth. I assume it would be closer to 360-370whp if tuned for 93.
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Originally Posted by derryck View Post
Weird...I noticed a significant increase after installation of my RBs and I only run 93 pump gas. RBs were well worth the money and my stock turbos were working fine.
Yeah, the people saying RBs/Vargas won't yield much, don't make any sense... A member here posted up a thread showing his RB Turbo car on 94 octane pump gas putting down 460whp and 455rwtq. That's a very noticeable gain, especially in the HP department as the stockers fall on their faces around 5500RPM. Take a close look at the curve itself:



Compare that to my graph:


You can see how the RB car makes power allll the way to almost redline and torque does not fall off by almost 100 units after 4500RPM, something the stock turbos simply cannot do. The drop off in TQ is still there, but nowhere near as big as on my car.

Last edited by dbworld4k; 01-20-2015 at 10:13 PM..
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      01-21-2015, 03:46 AM   #7
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You can get 400 whp on stock turbos but that is close to the max.
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      01-21-2015, 04:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbworld4k View Post

You can see how the RB car makes power allll the way to almost redline and torque does not fall off by almost 100 units after 4500RPM, something the stock turbos simply cannot do. The drop off in TQ is still there, but nowhere near as big as on my car.
Worth to mention the trade-off:
The first (RB) graph shows that full torque comes much later at 3Krpm, while on the stockers it's at 2.3-2.5Krpm, so it's about 500-700rpm later based on that data.
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      01-21-2015, 07:18 AM   #9
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Vargas stage 3 turbos on 91 octane made 570whp. Big single kits have also made around that on pump only.
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      01-21-2015, 08:10 AM   #10
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An other option to make more power on pump gas is to change your pistons to reduce the compression, like Alpina does on the B3.
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      01-21-2015, 08:44 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuDai View Post
Realistically, going with RB/Vargas on pump only is not going to yield much if anything at all over stock turbos power wise. They are nicer built and may last longer without the wastegate issues, although nothing has really been proven with regards to that claim yet.
Wrong. My car is a completely different animal going from FBO PTF tune to VTT stage 2 PTF tune on 94 octane only. Even my 91 tune is way faster than FBO. Have you ever run upgraded turbos or are you just repeating what others have said?
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      01-22-2015, 11:38 PM   #12
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Im making 40hp more with rbs then what i was i stock turbos on pump fuel. The 500-700 rpm is something i did not notice as laggy at all.
Hp checked on Virtual dyno.
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      01-23-2015, 02:34 PM   #13
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Thanks for the replies, things are becoming clearer

What I'm taking from this is:

1. I'm probably at around 320whp right now
2. An optimised FBO setup with standard turbos will take me to around 370whp (big jump from where I am now)
3. RBs/ Vargas offer a decent gain (a further approx 50whp)
4. Boost threshold (spool) will rise by around 700rpm
5. The power band will move right on the graph, and still pull beyond 6000rpm

My path will be to optimise the current turbo setup and live with that this summer and then see how I feel next winter.

Can't wait to get the mods on now
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      01-23-2015, 05:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmorris View Post
Wrong. My car is a completely different animal going from FBO PTF tune to VTT stage 2 PTF tune on 94 octane only. Even my 91 tune is way faster than FBO. Have you ever run upgraded turbos or are you just repeating what others have said?
I'm not saying they don't make more power. But the amount of power you get for around $5000 parts and labor, is what, 50whp with a better power curve? It's not a significant increase is all I meant. I didn't mean to say there is nothing, but it's certainly not a significant bump for the money compared to the other bolt on mods others do to get to that point of having to swap turbos. I'm just saying, don't expect wonders on pump gas.
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      01-23-2015, 07:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derryck View Post
Weird...I noticed a significant increase after installation of my RBs and I only run 93 pump gas. RBs were well worth the money and my stock turbos were working fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff500 View Post
Thanks for the replies, things are becoming clearer

What I'm taking from this is:

1. I'm probably at around 320whp right now
2. An optimised FBO setup with standard turbos will take me to around 370whp (big jump from where I am now)
3. RBs/ Vargas offer a decent gain (a further approx 50whp)
4. Boost threshold (spool) will rise by around 700rpm
5. The power band will move right on the graph, and still pull beyond 6000rpm

My path will be to optimise the current turbo setup and live with that this summer and then see how I feel next winter.

Can't wait to get the mods on now
That's precisely what I've done. I've essentially maxxed out my pump gas FBO setup for stock turbos (bear in mind I still have the option of meth). Things run great. If they day comes when I have turbo issues necessitating replacement, I will upgrade to RB or Vargas. Til then, this is plenty
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      01-25-2015, 08:46 PM   #16
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I have heard lots of people say that RBs don't spool up as fast (as OEM) but I don't notice it on my car. I have a FBO 09 E92 6AT with a tune from Wedge and I can easily spin my tires through 3rd gear if I try and I have 275 PSSs in the rear. You might not see huge max hp gains on pump gas with RBs but you will notice a substantial difference and won't regret spending the money. You will also notice the 'turbo whistle' a lot more with RBs.
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      01-26-2015, 12:49 PM   #17
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It depends how aggressive you would like to tune your car.
A good not too aggressive tune will give you around 400 whp.
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      01-26-2015, 01:45 PM   #18
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Jake gave me a 93 tune before I went to e50 that netted me 390 rwhp / 450 ft-lbs. Caveats apply for all of these numbers based on the dyno you run and ambient conditions.
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      01-26-2015, 01:53 PM   #19
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      01-26-2015, 02:44 PM   #20
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Tony Vargas expected 450awhp to be the max on pump only on his stage 2's.
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      01-26-2015, 03:00 PM   #21
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My car FBO on 93 octane made 403hp, 439ft lbs on stock turbos.

Tune is standard BMS backend pump flash, jb4 g5 iso. That was on Map 5 in 4th gear.
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      01-26-2015, 03:16 PM   #22
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380-400whp depending on fuel quality
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