[sajibaba]

Hey guys,

Here's a strange one: I've got two e90 330i's. One has the sport package (124k miles) and the other does not (80k miles, just purchased a week ago because it looks well taken care of and lower miles), and both are stick. I'm the 3rd owner of both cars so I don't know exactly what has been done to each...the sport package car has had some clutch work done on it so maybe a lighter flywheel(?).

Here's the thing, the sport package car feels a lot faster and more nimble then the non sport car. The engine seems willing to rev faster and there is a definite boost in power at 4,500 rpm and a quick climb to redline. I'm assuming it is the valvetronic that kicks in. The non sport car doesn't have nearly the same response. It is much more linear, slow and boring up to redline.

Granted, it is a butt dyno but it is not a subtle difference. I'm wondering what is causing this. The sport package and suspension should account for the lighter, more nimble feel but not the power right? One possilble clue is that the non sport had a dead battery tonight that would not take a jump. I looked and found a no name battery which probably wasn't registered when installed. Is it possible that the car's computer scaled back engine performance because the battery was off in some way? I'm doubtful but is it possible one of the cars has a tune, and how might I go about finding out if it does? Any other ideas to account for the difference?

Thanks,

[hassmaschine]

I don't think there's any difference in engines, and not in the tune. the non-sport might have some maintenance issues (vanos solenoids, eccentric shaft sensor, etc).

the only way to tell if there is a tune is to take a binary dump and compare it to a known stock file. you can't tell with any of the diagnostics tools, they'll just read the AIF which isn't altered by a tune.

[bimmerquick43321]

I know in our times it's happening less and less, but I remember before, it was very often you had the exact same cars (no more than 1-2 years old), same model/year everything, and they didn't necessarily performed exactly the same, so many variables to consider...

[hassmaschine]

BMW dyno tests every car that rolls off the assembly line, they've been doing this for a long time. I'm pretty sure the variability is vanishingly small. Although the odd car rolls out that has more than the stock rated power, few if any would have less.

more than likely given the age of the 330i, it's something that is in need of repair or maintenance.

[rhombus]

Is one AWD and the other RWD?

No difference in motors, as others have said, could be maintenance (maybe even eccentric shaft sensor).

[Three_thirty_I]

At least you have one that is running well so that you can get the other one up to standard. They should perform pretty much identically assuming that they are both stock. Even power variations should be negligible depending on the year model.

[bimmerquick43321]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

BMW dyno tests every car that rolls off the assembly line, they've been doing this for a long time. I'm pretty sure the variability is vanishingly small. Although the odd car rolls out that has more than the stock rated power, few if any would have less.

more than likely given the age of the 330i, it's something that is in need of repair or maintenance.

Yeah but I'm guessing there's an acceptable range like more or less 5whp ( I'm obviously just giving a random number), so if one does +5whp more than the average and the other one -5whp you have a 10whp difference right there, again it could be less, but you get the point. ..

I'm guessing engines are also dynoed independently after being assembled, so who knows maybe they put the "stronger" ones in the sport models lol

but obviously that's less likely and chances are as mentioned related to maintenance, also just thought about this same tires / mags ? cause that comes into play alot

[hassmaschine]

if anything the sport model would have heavier wheels/tires than the non sport model.

I wouldn't be surprised if the stronger motors are cherry picked.

[thakid22]

Two issues jump to mind here...

Engine break in - On my new vehicles, I follow a meticulous break in routine for the first 1000 miles. This has always afforded me better
response, feel, mpg, and drivability than similarly equipped models. I learned this when I bought my first new Accord V6 back in 1998.
My new, at the time, 2000 V6 Accord Coupe was also more responsive than friends identical Accord V6s. The message here is break an
engine in right, and it will reward you with higher levels of power, economy, and reliability over the long run.


The 2nd thing I can think of causing the difference between your 330's is maintenance...
My old 330i was notoriously sensitive to the quality of spark plugs, ignition coils, Vanos solenoids, oil quality and air filter cleanliness.
Each time I changed one of these items the engine gained a new level of response and smoothness.
You can look at your service history to see where you stand on the plugs and oil change. But I recommend going to rockauto.com and picking up
6 ignition coils and 2 vanos solenoids. This alone will rejuvenate your non sport 330i response levels. Is your air filter clean? If not change it.
Get some MAF sensor cleaner and clean off your MAF. You'll feel the difference right away. MAF sensors can be dirty and they can be electronically worn/lazy.
I eventually replaced my cleaned MAF with a new one and was again pleasantly surprised.
For $500-600 you can get all the parts I mentioned above and totally refresh your laggy N52 engine. I'd get them all at once. If not, start with the plugs and solenoids.

Run a tankful of Chevron Techron fuel injector cleaner through your motor to make sure the injectors are clean. All of this stuff is relatively cheap, highly effective and will probably benefit your
faster 330i sport too, being that it has over 100k miles.

[hassmaschine]

the problem is you'll find as many opinions on engine break in as you will on brands of oil. personally, I prefer the "drive it like you stole it" method which has served me well (vs the drive it like a granny for 1k miles).

[bimmerquick43321]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

the problem is you'll find as many opinions on engine break in as you will on brands of oil. personally, I prefer the "drive it like you stole it" method which has served me well (vs the drive it like a granny for 1k miles).

I might be wrong, but in our days they're pretty precise in building an engine, so it probably doesn't really make a difference either way....

[hassmaschine]

it's really just to seat the rings. bearings don't need a break in because they aren't supposed to touch, and if they do you'll have a serious issue.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

the problem is you'll find as many opinions on engine break in as you will on brands of oil. personally, I prefer the "drive it like you stole it" method which has served me well (vs the drive it like a granny for 1k miles).

Agreed. Break in is one of those topics that can divide even the most skilled technicians...
For the sake of this discussion though, its just important to know that break in IS a significant factor on how well an engine performs later in its life, possibly explaining some of the disparity in response levels between the original posters two identical N52 engines.

As a side note, my break in method on a new engine is as follows:
Varied rpms
Varied loads
No early INITIAL oil change (some cars like my Honda's were equipped with a special break in oil
from the factory to aid in the break in process) dumping this out early slows the break in process.
No sustained high speeds.

The first 100 miles are strictly granny mode for me, growing progressively stronger, and more spirited until the 1k mile mark where I finally explore the engines full potential. So not exactly granny mode for 1000 miles, but rather a semi aggressive ramp up of work/load on the engine over the first 1000 miles. Again, this has worked PHENOMENALLY for me!

Back in the late 90's to mid 2000, car clubs were all the rage here in Little Rock. That being so I had access to a plethora of vehicles identical to the ones I drove. Me, my friends, and my friends friends all had the same cars in various specs equipment levels and what not. My vehicles were always more responsive than similarly equipped models, something we always attributed to my deliberate break in. Most of the other guys were like "what's a break in period?"

A bit long winded, I know... Just want people to know that engine break in is IMPORTANT, if you are concerned about getting the most from your powertrain. HOW you break an engine is debatable, find what works for you and stick to it, but know that EVERY engine goes through a break in period. Use it wisely. As for the original poster, his 330i was purchased used, so break in isn't a viable concern or option. Maintenance is the avenue that will bring the response up in his laggy N52... Maintenance and/or Mods!

[Mike.]

I can show you the ways to really get the most out both of those engines..

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by thakid22

Agreed. Break in is one of those topics that can divide even the most skilled technicians...
For the sake of this discussion though, its just important to know that break in IS a significant factor on how well an engine performs later in its life, possibly explaining some of the disparity in response levels between the original posters two identical N52 engines.

As a side note, my break in method on a new engine is as follows:
Varied rpms
Varied loads
No early INITIAL oil change (some cars like my Honda's were equipped with a special break in oil
from the factory to aid in the break in process) dumping this out early slows the break in process.
No sustained high speeds.

The first 100 miles are strictly granny mode for me, growing progressively stronger, and more spirited until the 1k mile mark where I finally explore the engines full potential. So not exactly granny mode for 1000 miles, but rather a semi aggressive ramp up of work/load on the engine over the first 1000 miles. Again, this has worked PHENOMENALLY for me!

Back in the late 90's to mid 2000, car clubs were all the rage here in Little Rock. That being so I had access to a plethora of vehicles identical to the ones I drove. Me, my friends, and my friends friends all had the same cars in various specs equipment levels and what not. My vehicles were always more responsive than similarly equipped models, something we always attributed to my deliberate break in. Most of the other guys were like "what's a break in period?"

A bit long winded, I know... Just want people to know that engine break in is IMPORTANT, if you are concerned about getting the most from your powertrain. HOW you break an engine is debatable, find what works for you and stick to it, but know that EVERY engine goes through a break in period. Use it wisely. As for the original poster, his 330i was purchased used, so break in isn't a viable concern or option. Maintenance is the avenue that will bring the response up in his laggy N52... Maintenance and/or Mods!

I actually mostly agree. What I do for the 1st 100 miles is no extended high RPMs, but treat the throttle is like an on off switch - always WOT, but constantly varying loads, and accel/decal (with the engine of course). As miles build, I'll spend more and more time at high RPM. The one rule is to not try and top it out right away, because you have to stay at high RPM for an extended time in a high gear, which is a no-no.

[thakid22]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I actually mostly agree. What I do for the 1st 100 miles is no extended high RPMs, but treat the throttle is like an on off switch - always WOT, but constantly varying loads, and accel/decal (with the engine of course). As miles build, I'll spend more and more time at high RPM. The one rule is to not try and top it out right away, because you have to stay at high RPM for an extended time in a high gear, which is a no-no.

You, my friend, get it!

[refugeeofwar]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

it's really just to seat the rings. bearings don't need a break in because they aren't supposed to touch, and if they do you'll have a serious issue.

I'm with hass here. Typically, your cylinders (or liners, in most cases) are honed (meaning diagonal grooves are cut into the walls). This causes the walls, on a super small scale, to look like this ^^^^^^^ sort of. You take it easy on an engine in the break-in phase because you want those points to gradually wear down (so your mountains turn to hills) instead of sheering off clean or bending over. That's the biggest reason for breaking in.

Unlike hass, I am ALL for this. I deal with diesels mostly in my line of work and it is super important to break in the liners properly so your liners and rings wear together. Personally, I think there's no real reason not to do it in a car that you care about. What's a few hundred or 1000 miles of taking it easy? Not a big deal if you keep the car for 15 years and put a shittonne of (happy) miles on it. Then you drive it like you stole it for the next decade.

He's also right about the bearings (I know, he's a smart dude, right?). You will have some touching of your bearings on initial start-up (since you don't have a pre-lube pump to lift the crank) and on shut-down, but any good lube will give you enough boundary lubrication while the engine's sitting there to minimize any wear you get from that.

[sajibaba]

Thanks for all the feedback. Both cars are regular old rwd 330i's but the sport does have a new set of PSS on which is a thing of beauty. I dropped the car off at my local German indy repair shop (mostly to run diagnostics to see what type of electrical gremlin caused the batt. to die so unexpectedly). I'm hoping they find some kind of obvious fault the explains the power difference (interestingly, nothing comes up on the info panel upon startup but I didn't look for anything before the batt died).
In terms of possible maint. issues, the sport model that has 124k on it barely has any history and the guy I got it from was forced to have a breathalyzer installed on it (fyi, great way to get a super great deal since it checked out) and he wasn't the type to keep up on maint. The non sport model with 80k used to be a CPO car and has a meticulous history (I got it once I realized how much I enjoyed the NA e90). I'll report back next week when I hear back.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by refugeeofwar

I'm with hass here. Typically, your cylinders (or liners, in most cases) are honed (meaning diagonal grooves are cut into the walls). This causes the walls, on a super small scale, to look like this ^^^^^^^ sort of. You take it easy on an engine in the break-in phase because you want those points to gradually wear down (so your mountains turn to hills) instead of sheering off clean or bending over. That's the biggest reason for breaking in.

Unlike hass, I am ALL for this. I deal with diesels mostly in my line of work and it is super important to break in the liners properly so your liners and rings wear together. Personally, I think there's no real reason not to do it in a car that you care about. What's a few hundred or 1000 miles of taking it easy? Not a big deal if you keep the car for 15 years and put a shittonne of (happy) miles on it. Then you drive it like you stole it for the next decade.

He's also right about the bearings (I know, he's a smart dude, right?). You will have some touching of your bearings on initial start-up (since you don't have a pre-lube pump to lift the crank) and on shut-down, but any good lube will give you enough boundary lubrication while the engine's sitting there to minimize any wear you get from that.

agree to disagree. It's the extended time at high RPMs that can overheat the "ridges" and shear them off. Short bursts of full throttle does not. If anything, driving lazily for an extended period can cause them to glaze over as well. My last built motor was broken in by ~90 miles, then I took it to a track day. It now has like 90k miles on it, and has never burned a drop of oil, always ran strong.

yeah startup & shut down, there'll be minor contact. but what I meant was, bearing clearance is what it is - it's not like they're machined tightly and clearance themselves or something. the main reason for tighter bearing tolerances here is lower viscosity oils, although truthfully BMW has always ran tight tolerances on their crank & rod bearings.

[refugeeofwar]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

agree to disagree. It's the extended time at high RPMs that can overheat the "ridges" and shear them off. Short bursts of full throttle does not. If anything, driving lazily for an extended period can cause them to glaze over as well. My last built motor was broken in by ~90 miles, then I took it to a track day. It now has like 90k miles on it, and has never burned a drop of oil, always ran strong.

yeah startup & shut down, there'll be minor contact. but what I meant was, bearing clearance is what it is - it's not like they're machined tightly and clearance themselves or something. the main reason for tighter bearing tolerances here is lower viscosity oils, although truthfully BMW has always ran tight tolerances on their crank & rod bearings.

Yeah the break-in period is vastly different for different engines. For instance, there is a volvo penta marine diesel that I have a bit of experience with and recently rebuilt that has a break-in time of 20 running hours, which you can easily do in a couple days. In that case, volvo suggests that you don't hold one speed for any more than 1 minute and you don't exceed 3000rpm (full speed is 3800) for the first 20 hours. Then you're done.

Either way I guess it doesn't matter much to the OP as he can't break in a 8 year old engine. It could have made a small difference if someone hurt the engine in the first few hours/miles/days that they had it

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by refugeeofwar

Yeah the break-in period is vastly different for different engines. For instance, there is a volvo penta marine diesel that I have a bit of experience with and recently rebuilt that has a break-in time of 20 running hours, which you can easily do in a couple days. In that case, volvo suggests that you don't hold one speed for any more than 1 minute and you don't exceed 3000rpm (full speed is 3800) for the first 20 hours. Then you're done.

Either way I guess it doesn't matter much to the OP as he can't break in a 8 year old engine. It could have made a small difference if someone hurt the engine in the first few hours/miles/days that they had it

Is anyone considering the adaptation values in the DME. If you have been running poor fuel or driving like Miss Daisy for a long time the DME will adjust and get stupid. I don't know how much good fuel or good driving it takes to get the DME back to normal but I suspect it's a full tank of gas or more.

[thakid22]

Rjahl, good point.
Along those lines, the two engines could be running two different
software revisions. A quick check of the zb #s of the software on each vehicles DME
would confirm this. One car could have a newer software package. Even then, the new software could be more
or less responsive than then old. Newer doesn't always equal faster when it comes to the updates.