[Der_Wolf]

Alrighty boys, I have a rather embarrassing question to ask. I don't really know much about manual transmissions, and as a result, I don't ever put my car into sequential mode.

Now that my break-in service is done, I want to drive the car in high rpm ranges for more joy. I typically just put everything in D3/sport+ and have fun that way, but I am ready to become an adult and learn the ins and outs of sequential. I can already hear the 6MT guys ready to beat my ass after reading "ins and outs of sequential". Sorry.

Yesterday, I accidently had my car in S3 instead of D3, and at one point my car starting jerking really hard (this must be what it feels like to own a Sybian). I quickly realized wtf was happening and hit the upshift paddle twice quickly to make sure my engine didn't explode and then put the car back into D3. Do you think I caused any damage? I do not want to damage or wreck anything. I am asking for any videos/reading materials you guys may have so I can properly enjoy this car in a safe manner.

My mom told me I wasn't allowed any more Tostino's pizza rolls until I let my balls drop and learn how to drive the car in sequential like Michael Schumacher. In fact, when she had friends over last night and I came upstairs from the basement to get more mountain dew, she told her friend that I was an exchange student she was looking after . This is unacceptable, and something must be done. Thank you for holding my hand and making my mommy proud.

[TrentMeister]

I feel like ///AVM would do a very nice job of explaining this in good detail.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by LBbluem2

I feel like ///AVM would do a very nice job of explaining this in good detail.

Der_Wolf

1. There is nothing macho or otherwise manly about a MT or driving PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode. That stated, I am a MT fanboy turned PDK/DCT/ZF8 manual mode convert. You have inquired about usage of the ZF8 manual mode and I will offer my perspective below . . . although I am just one enthusiast and feedback will vary.

2. Your ZF8 has a rev-limiter on it so, no, you did not bag your engine. I push red line pretty routinely and have had the occasion to bounce off the rev limiter one or a hundred times.

3. You were 'jerking around' because you were most likely in 1st gear, which is very responsive to throttle input. Once you heard the engine's RPMs climb and intrinsically knew it was not shifting, I suspect you let off the throttle and the jerking commenced.

*****

Before turbo engines with gobs of low-end torque became so prevalent, finding and staying in the heart of a naturally aspirated power band with MT required learning how to 'keep the RPMs up.' Aside from optimized performance, once you learn and become comfortable with the acoustics of a wrung out engine, well, I venture few ever go back. . . the sound is bliss.

Based on your comments, I suspect you have never developed a level of comfort with a wrung out engine. According to my wife who will occasionally join me for a spirited drive, it sounds like the engine is going 'blow up.' As I do her, I can reassure you it will not. These ///M cars are built to perform.

There is nothing wrong with automatic mode if that is your comfort zone. I do believe having a history with MT promotes interest in manual mode. For me, I simply want control over shift points for performance/acoustic reasons noted above . . . and do not miss the clutch. Plus, unlike most MT that are not a GT3 or in similar price bracket, you can safely power shift a PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode.

I personally never use the paddles and would not get PDK/DCT/ZF8 if it required using them. There is something very familiar and rewarding to me associated with using the shifter, not the least of which is actually 'feeling' the shifts. Not required, but I would recommend using the shifter to familiarize yourself with the manual mode. Namely, monitoring RPMs and having confidence your engine was built to sing. . . including getting hung up on downshifts.

I SUGGEST a good starting point is constantly keeping the RPMs above 3.5K. You will find you are living in 2nd to 4th gears, but there is no rule you have to use the longer gears. At any rate, this will likely be new to you. Stick with it for a while and see if it you like it?

One additional recommendation is not listening to the stereo when driving in a spirited manner . . . let the engine be your acoustic pleasure. The stereo drowns out the engine acoustics and really diminishes the experience.

Have fun and become comfortable with the sound of that engine being wrung out . . . you will not hurt your engine.

///AVM

[Pantagathus]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Der_Wolf

1. There is nothing macho or otherwise manly about a MT or driving PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode. That stated, I am a MT fanboy turned PDK/DCT/ZF8 manual mode convert. You have inquired about usage of the ZF8 manual mode and I will offer my perspective below . . . although I am just one enthusiast and feedback will vary.

2. Your ZF8 has a rev-limiter on it so, no, you did not bag your engine. I push red line pretty routinely and have had the occasion to bounce off the rev limiter one or a hundred times.

3. You were 'jerking around' because you were most likely in 1st gear, which is very responsive to throttle input. Once you heard the engine's RPMs climb and intrinsically knew it was not shifting, I suspect you let off the throttle and the jerking commenced.

*****

Before turbo engines with gobs of low-end torque became so prevalent, finding and staying in the heart of a naturally aspirated power band with MT required learning how to 'keep the RPMs up.' Aside from optimized performance, once you learn and become comfortable with the acoustics of a wrung out engine, well, I venture few ever go back. . . the sound is bliss.

Based on your comments, I suspect you have never developed a level of comfort with a wrung out engine. According to my wife who will occasionally join me for a spirited drive, it sounds like the engine is going 'blow up.' As I do her, I can reassure you it will not. These ///M cars are built to perform.

There is nothing wrong with automatic mode if that is your comfort zone. I do believe having a history with MT promotes interest in manual mode. For me, I simply want control over shift points for performance/acoustic reasons noted above . . . and do not miss the clutch. Plus, unlike most MT that are not a GT3 or in similar price bracket, you can safely power shift a PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode.

I personally never use the paddles and would not get PDK/DCT/ZF8 if it required using them. There is something very familiar and rewarding to me associated with using the shifter, not the least of which is actually 'feeling' the shifts. Not required, but I would recommend using the shifter to familiarize yourself with the manual mode. Namely, monitoring RPMs and having confidence your engine was built to sing. . . including getting hung up on downshifts.

I SUGGEST a good starting point is constantly keeping the RPMs above 3.5K. You will find you are living in 2nd to 4th gears, but there is no rule you have to use the longer gears. At any rate, this will likely be new to you. Stick with it for a while and see if it you like it?

One additional recommendation is not listening to the stereo when driving in a spirited manner . . . let the engine be your acoustic pleasure. The stereo drowns out the engine acoustics and really diminishes the experience.

Have fun and become comfortable with the sound of that engine being wrung out . . . you will not hurt your engine.

///AVM

100% on not listening to the stereo, being able to hear what the engine is doing makes a huge difference. Now that the break-in is done I have discovered how truly epic 3rd gear is on the 6MT. You're in peak torque from maybe 40mph, and only redline over 100mph, it just gives you this enormous range where the engine just sings. I have a few fairly tight turns leading to freeway on ramps, and I'll daily take those as close to the limit as I dare and then give it the beans as it straightens out, in 3rd gear the whole time and the car just feels alive

[Der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Der_Wolf

1. There is nothing macho or otherwise manly about a MT or driving PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode. That stated, I am a MT fanboy turned PDK/DCT/ZF8 manual mode convert. You have inquired about usage of the ZF8 manual mode and I will offer my perspective below . . . although I am just one enthusiast and feedback will vary.

2. Your ZF8 has a rev-limiter on it so, no, you did not bag your engine. I push red line pretty routinely and have had the occasion to bounce off the rev limiter one or a hundred times.

3. You were 'jerking around' because you were most likely in 1st gear, which is very responsive to throttle input. Once you heard the engine's RPMs climb and intrinsically knew it was not shifting, I suspect you let off the throttle and the jerking commenced.

*****

Before turbo engines with gobs of low-end torque became so prevalent, finding and staying in the heart of a naturally aspirated power band with MT required learning how to 'keep the RPMs up.' Aside from optimized performance, once you learn and become comfortable with the acoustics of a wrung out engine, well, I venture few ever go back. . . the sound is bliss.

Based on your comments, I suspect you have never developed a level of comfort with a wrung out engine. According to my wife who will occasionally join me for a spirited drive, it sounds like the engine is going 'blow up.' As I do her, I can reassure you it will not. These ///M cars are built to perform.

There is nothing wrong with automatic mode if that is your comfort zone. I do believe having a history with MT promotes interest in manual mode. For me, I simply want control over shift points for performance/acoustic reasons noted above . . . and do not miss the clutch. Plus, unlike most MT that are not a GT3 or in similar price bracket, you can safely power shift a PDK/DCT/ZF8 in manual mode.

I personally never use the paddles and would not get PDK/DCT/ZF8 if it required using them. There is something very familiar and rewarding to me associated with using the shifter, not the least of which is actually 'feeling' the shifts. Not required, but I would recommend using the shifter to familiarize yourself with the manual mode. Namely, monitoring RPMs and having confidence your engine was built to sing. . . including getting hung up on downshifts.

I SUGGEST a good starting point is constantly keeping the RPMs above 3.5K. You will find you are living in 2nd to 4th gears, but there is no rule you have to use the longer gears. At any rate, this will likely be new to you. Stick with it for a while and see if it you like it?

One additional recommendation is not listening to the stereo when driving in a spirited manner . . . let the engine be your acoustic pleasure. The stereo drowns out the engine acoustics and really diminishes the experience.

Have fun and become comfortable with the sound of that engine being wrung out . . . you will not hurt your engine.

///AVM

Thanks a lot for this write up! As always, ///AVM , you are very helpful and informative. If I want to keep the car in 2-4th gears (and need to obey the speed limit), is it okay to let off the throttle in those rpm ranges, or will the car jerk again? For example, I am in 2nd gear and hit 55mph and the car is around 4k rpm and now I want to bring it back down to 45mph with engine braking. By the way, you are 100% spot on to what happened when the car originally jerked on me.

I will play around with the car and try and learn through practice, now that I know I am not going to bag the engine. Thanks again!

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by Der_Wolf

Thanks a lot for this write up! As always, ///AVM , you are very helpful and informative. If I want to keep the car in 2-4th gears (and need to obey the speed limit), is it okay to let off the throttle in those rpm ranges, or will the car jerk again? For example, I am in 2nd gear and hit 55mph and the car is around 4k rpm and now I want to bring it back down to 45mph with engine braking. By the way, you are 100% spot on to what happened when the car originally jerked on me.

I will play around with the car and try and learn through practice, now that I know I am not going to bag the engine. Thanks again!

Der_Wolf

You are welcome. Glad you find my feedback helpful.

What I tried to express in my prior post was that it is much easier to go from a MT history to applying and enjoying PDK/DCT/ZF8 manual mode.

However, I realize you do not have the MT history so my trying to express how and why I utilize ZF8 manual mode may not be 'instinctive' to you.

That said, like learning a MT, you will have to play around with manual mode and get used to it. I am honestly curious how your experience unfolds because you have never been forced to manually shift and learn the intricacies.

Manual mode is simpler because the clutch is eliminated, however, the engagement and performance reward are otherwise the same. As before, you may actually prefer using the paddles because you never learned to engage the shifter or embrace the shift feedback through the shifter. You will have to explore and see what gives you the most enjoyment?

Yes, you can definitely let off the throttle and the 'jerkiness' will be less as you do so through the taller gears. In fact, 2nd gear should not really 'jerk' at all compared to 1st gear.

With ZF8 you really cannot be in the 'wrong' gear. For example, unlike MT, the ZF8 manual mode will automatically down shift before it lets you 'stall;' I never downshift from 2nd to 1st gear when coming to a stop, as the computer will do it automatically when you get below 5-7 mph. Other than taking off from a stop and coming to a stop, you should rarely ever be in 1st gear.

In terms of the conundrum you related, which I refer to deciding between letting off the throttle and jail time, well that is an intricacy you also learn. If you look at one of the first posts in my thread, I indicate the following:

"Nearly all modern sport/sporty cars get you from 0-60 quickly . . . I think we all enjoy the ‘pull’ and the S58 provides plenty. However, where does the majority of enjoyment come from after the initial 3-4 seconds off the line or out of a snug turn? When most of your daily driving is trying to stay out of jail where local speed limits are 45-55 mph???

PERSONALLY, a large portion of my enjoyment comes with living at the top of the rev band. Aside from throttle response – access to the power band - I simply enjoy the sound of a wrung-out engine; very engaging and pleasing to the acoustic senses."

One of the intricacies in getting from 0-55 is that it is not always most enjoyable to get there as quickly as possible. Lay off the throttle a bit and learn to enjoy the 'climb' through the rev band in a more LINEAR or naturally aspirated-like manner. This approach is particular to turbo engines where you can gauge/control the turbo spooling/engagement through throttle input. In this way you are not always going from zero to braking.

My above point is something you learn through experience with naturally aspirated engines that do not typically have all that low-end torque to get you from 0-55 as quickly as a turbo. You can be more aggressive with he throttle and feel that LINEAR climb. Even with the S55 notorious for vomiting its torque all over you, I still managed to get plenty of pull but control turbo engagement through throttle input.

In short, given speed limits associated with common roadways, one thing I have learned to enjoy is the acoustics of a wrung out engine. Keeping the engine wrung out involves controlling up and down shift points, which I also enjoy. . . and why I enjoy ZF8 manual mode.

The alternative is just using automatic mode and controlling speed with the throttle and brakes constantly . . . which I do not enjoy at all.

Of course, things change on the track. Still, even on the track, I feel there is more to HOW you get around the track than HOW FAST. . . but we will save that for another day.

///AVM

[moproblems]

I still don't quite understand the nuance here. Pedal to the steel and keep grabbing the right paddle until you are satisfied. It's a torque convertor automatic, not the shuttle Enterprise.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by moproblems

I still don't quite understand the nuance here. Pedal to the steel and keep grabbing the right paddle until you are satisfied. It's a torque convertor automatic, not the shuttle Enterprise.

Well, another forum member inquired about some of the nuances associated with driving in ZF8 manual mode . . . and another member (me) took the time to provide some response.

If your driving enjoyment comes from pedal to the steel and grabbing the right paddle, that is great . . . but, clearly, the nuance OP was after is lost on you.

///AVM

[vetteflier]

I agree on using the shifter when in manual mode. The paddles are great for a downshift or 2 in auto, but using the shifter is much more natural to me. For aggressive driving in manual, the paddles benefit by keeping your hands on the wheel, though. But to get comfortable with manual, the shifter is the best bet. That being said, I prefer auto. The tranny is so perfectly matched to the ratios/rpms, you won't beat it in manual. Besides, I have my wife's Civic SI for when I feel like rowing gears.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by vetteflier

I agree on using the shifter when in manual mode. The paddles are great for a downshift or 2 in auto, but using the shifter is much more natural to me. For aggressive driving in manual, the paddles benefit by keeping your hands on the wheel, though. But to get comfortable with manual, the shifter is the best bet. That being said, I prefer auto. The tranny is so perfectly matched to the ratios/rpms, you won't beat it in manual. Besides, I have my wife's Civic SI for when I feel like rowing gears.

vetteflier

Cannot disagree with anything you stated . . . everyone has different roadway conditions and driving interests.

However, I think most, including myself, do not have routine access to open roadways that allow for higher speed enthusiasm. So, most of my comments pertain to spirited daily driving on typical suburban roadways. An approach I have adopted toward engagement that allows me to stay out of jail . . . and not go from throttle to brake constantly.

When I lived in rural North Carolina things were different and allowed a different level of 'spiritedness.' Those were my Porsche days. Still, I personally preferred using the shifter over the paddles because I enjoy the shifter engagement. I recognize others do not share my preference for the shifter.

If I had occasion to frequent the track, my preference MIGHT be the paddles, as you suggest. However, in truth, I would most likely get a GT4 with MT . . . but I digress.

///AVM

[vetteflier]

I'm lucky to have basically empty roads east of me. Few houses; lot of ranch land. The County cops are never there. I think in 15 years of "spirited" driving there, I've seen 2 maybe 3. My Escort caught Ka from the other side of a hill in my '13 Vette while I was going...let's say, somewhat over the speed limit. Only close call so far. But you're right. Typical suburban driving is limiting to push the envelope. You get it while you can. Agree on the GT4, but I'd get PDK.

[AriM3G80]

Very informative thread, thank you all.

Question: when in manual mode, is there a way to have the car upshift on its own when hitting the rev limiter? coming from two Audi S4's, which would upshift on their own when flooring it in manual mode, i've found myself forgetting to upshift a couple of times now from excitement and the car screaming at me…

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by AriM3G80

Very informative thread, thank you all.

Question: when in manual mode, is there a way to have the car upshift on its own when hitting the rev limiter? coming from two Audi S4's, which would upshift on their own when flooring it in manual mode, i've found myself forgetting to upshift a couple of times now from excitement and the car screaming at me…

Press and hold the right shift paddle. It will switch to auto mode.

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by jonahk

Press and hold the right shift paddle. It will switch to auto mode.

Jonah

I believe AriM3G80 wanted to know if the ZF8 would automatically shift in manual mode once maximum engine speed is achieved . . . your response offered one option to switch between manual and automatic modes.

On this and many forums the common language used includes 'manual' and 'automatic' modes. Pretty intuitive language that is well understood among members during the course of discussion . . . technically, BMW refers to manual mode as 'sequential (S)' mode and automatic mode as 'Drive (D)' mode.

AriM3G80, I will refer you directly to page 145 of the G80 M3C Owners Manual for answer to your question:

"General Information

Shortly before falling below a gear-dependent minimum speed, the transmission is automatically downshifted.

Once the maximum engine speed is attained, upshifting is not automatically performed in sequential mode and the kickdown is deactivated."

///AVM

[AriM3G80]

Thank you Jonah and thank you AVM.

So in other words, if i am driving in "S" mode (sequential/manual) and coming to a slow, transmission will downshift to the appropriate gear to match the speed as to not stall, but if i would accelerate instead of slowing down the transmission will not upshift but stay in that gear and hit the rev limiter waiting for me to kick the shifter a gear up!

Will have to get used to this now, as it happened twice already and i don't like the way engine sounds at the redline.

Back in the day (grew up in Europe) we only had manual cars, so left hand on the wheel, right hand on the shifter all the time!!! It was muscle memory to row the shifter up and down. Now with the automatic cars kinda lost that feeling and mostly both hands on the wheel forgetting to nudge, not even move, the shifter up and down.

Absolutely not trying to compare, but Audi's have that feature that even if in sequential/manual mode if you were to step on it, the moment it hits redline it would upshift on its own, which was cool if you're caught up in the moment all focused on speed

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by AriM3G80

Thank you Jonah and thank you AVM.

So in other words, if i am driving in "S" mode (sequential/manual) and coming to a slow, transmission will downshift to the appropriate gear to match the speed as to not stall, but if i would accelerate instead of slowing down the transmission will not upshift but stay in that gear and hit the rev limiter waiting for me to kick the shifter a gear up!

Will have to get used to this now, as it happened twice already and i don't like the way engine sounds at the redline.

Back in the day (grew up in Europe) we only had manual cars, so left hand on the wheel, right hand on the shifter all the time!!! It was muscle memory to row the shifter up and down. Now with the automatic cars kinda lost that feeling and mostly both hands on the wheel forgetting to nudge, not even move, the shifter up and down.

Absolutely not trying to compare, but Audi's have that feature that even if in sequential/manual mode if you were to step on it, the moment it hits redline it would upshift on its own, which was cool if you're caught up in the moment all focused on speed

I do like that feature on Audi's, but I also like the fact the ZF in these G8x cars lets you know if you're being an idiot instead of letting the robots take over

Truthfully, the car should accelerate faster in D3 vs S3 as the car knows the optimal time to shift. I really only leave the transmission in S3 and come close to the limiter if I'm on tight twisty roads and don't want the car to switch gears on me in either direction at the wrong time. Which - to be honest, seems to happen a lot less with the ZF8 vs the DCT I had in my F87.

Being able to switch back and forth between S and D modes just by holding the paddles is a nice feature when I've got both hands on the wheel. And I enjoy I can still do left hand on the wheel and right hand on the shifter to row through gears when I'm feeling nostalgic.

And don't forget, holding the left paddle will drop the car to the lowest available gear and load boost pressure when you need to show the Audi in the lane next to you what's up

[superbrew]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

Jonah

I believe AriM3G80 wanted to know if the ZF8 would automatically shift in manual mode once maximum engine speed is achieved . . . your response offered one option to switch between manual and automatic modes.

On this and many forums the common language used includes 'manual' and 'automatic' modes. Pretty intuitive language that is well understood among members during the course of discussion . . . technically, BMW refers to manual mode as 'sequential (S)' mode and automatic mode as 'Drive (D)' mode.

AriM3G80, I will refer you directly to page 145 of the G80 M3C Owners Manual for answer to your question:

"General Information

Shortly before falling below a gear-dependent minimum speed, the transmission is automatically downshifted.

Once the maximum engine speed is attained, upshifting is not automatically performed in sequential mode and the kickdown is deactivated."

///AVM

Don't have mine yet, but does the ZF8 have a similar feature to the DCT where you can hold the left paddle and hit the kickdown and it selects the lowest possible gear?

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by superbrew

Don't have mine yet, but does the ZF8 have a similar feature to the DCT where you can hold the left paddle and hit the kickdown and it selects the lowest possible gear?

Yes

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by superbrew

Don't have mine yet, but does the ZF8 have a similar feature to the DCT where you can hold the left paddle and hit the kickdown and it selects the lowest possible gear?

You don't even have to press the gas to kickdown, it just switches to the lowest possible gear. And it happens MUCH faster than it did in the DCT (due to the ZF8 being able to select any gear at any time)

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by jonahk

You don't even have to press the gas to kickdown, it just switches to the lowest possible gear. And it happens MUCH faster than it did in the DCT (due to the ZF8 being able to select any gear at any time)

J

I have never used the paddles with PDK/DCT or ZF8 . . . for kicks and giggles I was just out driving; put transmission in automatic mode; pulled in left paddle and held. Shifted down from D6 to S3 in a nanosecond.

Still no interest in using the paddles over shifter, but a really cool feature for (rare) occasions when I am in automatic mode and, as you suggested earlier, have the desire to make an aggressive pass or similar occasion.

///AVM

[jonahk]

Originally Posted by ///AVM

J

I have never used the paddles with PDK/DCT or ZF8 . . . for kicks and giggles I was just out driving; put transmission in automatic mode; pulled in left paddle and held. Shifted down from D6 to S3 in a nanosecond.

Still no interest in using the paddles over shifter, but a really cool feature for (rare) occasions when I am in automatic mode and, as you suggested earlier, have the desire to make an aggressive pass or similar occasion.

///AVM

I remember you saying you never use the paddles. My car is at my detailer right now so I can't test this but what happens if you hold the shifter does it do the same thing?

[///AVM]

Originally Posted by jonahk

I remember you saying you never use the paddles. My car is at my detailer right now so I can't test this but what happens if you hold the shifter does it do the same thing?

J

Honestly, I do not know, but suspect it would work the same with shifter as it does the paddles?

Unlike automatic mode where you will be 'cruising' 55mph and be in 7th or 8th gear at 2-2.5K RPMs . . . I am nearly always in 3rd or 4th gears at 3.5-4K+ RPMs in manual mode.

In other words, I might be able to occasionally squeak out two downward gears if I held the shifter forward, but never had much value to try it given I run high in the rev range . . . which is the entire point of why we use manual mode; so we can control shift points.

I do think it is really cool and useful that you can be in automatic mode and use the paddle to rapidly downshift. Not sure of the value if you are already using the shifter in manual mode?

Remember, to go from automatic to manual mode using shifter, you have to move shifter to right first. Not only an extra step to put it into manual mode, but you would have to do the same to take it back out of manual mode . . . versus using the paddle where it will automatically go back to automatic mode after a short period of non-manual (paddle) shifting.

///AVM