[ForestHillsJackie]

I am not trying to trash talk the brand or start a fight, but I genuinely want to know why BMW owners have to invest so much time into replacing these gaskets when other brands seem to be able to maintain a seal. I love my car, but she’s not easy to love!

Is it the engine alloys? Choice of gasket material? Part quality? Variance in manufacturing? Operating temperature? It seems to me that if we have the technology to deep fake Tom Cruise, a flexible gasket to seal two mating surfaces should have been perfected by now. 🤔

Sincerely,
Someone who just did her OFHG and has valve cover and oil pan gaskets in her future…

[e90yyc]

I believe it’s primarily due to the choice of gasket material. In some cases such as OFHG, BMW has revised the part to use a more enduring material. In that case, the latest part is made of Viton, a fluoropolymer with much better resistance to grease/oil than the original EPDM gasket.

There may be other factors, but I think that’s the biggest one.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by ForestHillsJackie

... a flexible gasket to seal two mating surfaces should have been perfected by now. 🤔...

I have a Theory:
Single-use Aluminum Bolts, due to Magnesium-Alloy Crankcase.
ANY Gaskets lose their "flexibility" or elasticity with age & repeated heat cycles.
If you have steel bolts compressing that gasket, you can "snug-up" the bolts, returning them to proper torque, as the gasket "shrinks" and bolts are now "loose", or less than specified torque.
Snug-up bolts slowly & incrementally, using ONLY wrist-pressure, with 1/4"-Drive 4" Socket Handle. This is a "Finesse" Procedure, to uniformly compress a gasket uniformly along it's circumference.

BMW says/ suggests NOT to do that with "Single-use Aluminum Bolts". The warning is ambiguous, and the physics is debatable. Certainly if you loosen (counter-rotate) a torqued aluminum bolt, you should NOT re-use it or tighten it again, at least with T-T-Y angle after reaching specified torque.

CONFESSION:
I have "Re-torqued" my Sump Bolts (those I could access), where the R-Rear of gasket was seeping. Carefully rotating bolthead clockwise ONLY, to NOT MORE than specified torque (NO Angle thereafter). If you do that ONLY on bolts you could extract if head breaks off, NOT much to lose by trying.

Most of you don't remember the old CORK gaskets on "Rocker Cover" years ago. Every year or two, if you "snugged-up" the steel bolts, the gasket would continue to seal. If you didn't -- Big Mess.

I owned Jags for years (just sold my last XJ-S). Running joke about "Rust-Prevention Under-Engine Oiling System". Never had a serious oil leak, but there WAS a seepage issue. Gasket materials have supposedly improved in last 60 years, but physics remains the same.

Loss of Gasket Compression causes leaks, or at least seepage. If you can't "snug-up" the bolts compressing the gasket, oil leak worsens. Jags into 90's did NOT have Aluminum Bolts, with warning of "Single-Use".
George

[NZE90]

I think the high operating temperature of these engines is a factor as well just quietly. Normal range for most BMW engines is roughly 100°c anywhere up to 115° depending on the conditions. That is going to make rubber gaskets brittle quicker than a Toyota Corolla which runs at 85°c to 90°c.

Having said that, it baffles me that BMW haven't improved this over the years. I would be very concerned if my brand were commonly known as "oil leaking pieces of shit" Clearly BMW don't mind.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by NZE90

I think the high operating temperature of these engines is a factor as well just quietly. Normal range for most BMW engines is roughly 100°c anywhere up to 115° depending on the conditions. That is going to make rubber gaskets brittle quicker than a Toyota Corolla which runs at 85°c to 90°c...

NOT sure where folks get the idea that E9x BMW's designed in early 2000's, nearly 20 years ago, in WORLD Market, are so different from other Brands, either electrically, Engine Temp, Emissions Controls, etc.

It would appear from the link below that Toyota Corolla Engine operating Temp is about same as BMW N52, etc.

Emission Control suggests ALL engines of whatever brand, having to meet Emissions Laws in US should be similar Temperature:
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo...hrome&ie=UTF-8
George

[marvinstockman]

If I had to take a WAG or a SWAG at the question, my answer would be, 'GERMAN'!

[E93Seattle (Racerbruce)]

Most of you don't remember the old CORK gaskets on "Rocker Cover" years ago. Every year or two, if you "snugged-up" the steel bolts, the gasket would continue to seal. If you didn't -- Big Mess.

indeed, the cork valve cover gaskets on my built/modded small block chevy were nearly impossible to prevent oil leaking....i had the valve covers off frequently to adjust the solid lifters and had a bit of the "velcro" approach by using chrome risers with "wings" for a handle for the four valve cover bolts.

this was a 30 over bore, high compression pistons, 2.02 intake valve fuel injection heads, duntov 30/30 rumpty-rump cam that idled at 1250 rpm, edelbrock aluminum intake manifold, holley 780 double pumper, hooker headers beasty-beast

is there a year defined when bmw began the Viton vs EPDM gasket process??

[E93Seattle (Racerbruce)]

any truth to this??

"Recently BMW changed the material to Viton which has high temp resistance and also resists to petrochemical fluids (i.e. synthetic oils). The change was made late 2013, early 2014"

[Onizukachan]

80+ thousand and my 2015 diesel f31 never had a leak of any sort, but isn’t conclusive evidence, as when we talk about leaks we are usually talking about cars that are 10-15-30 years old, well over 100k etc.

[StradaRedlands]

Crap gaskets. If they used Viton or similar from the start it wouldn't be a problem. They must have been trying to save a Euro on each car by using crap rubber. That and the Quandt family must have a cousin that supplied the sub-par parts. I am really glad they upgraded the OFHG, but what the hell, not the VCG or OPG???

[ForestHillsJackie]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

CONFESSION:
I have "Re-torqued" my Sump Bolts (those I could access), where the R-Rear of gasket was seeping. Carefully rotating bolthead clockwise ONLY, to NOT MORE than specified torque (NO Angle thereafter). If you do that ONLY on bolts you could extract if head breaks off, NOT much to lose by trying.

I have notified the authorities and they are assembling a SEAL team to remove any mistreated vehicles from your home and rehome them to me 😆

[Bmw1939]

Originally Posted by ForestHillsJackie

I have notified the authorities and they are assembling a SEAL team to remove any mistreated vehicles from your home and rehome them to me 😆

Easy Jackie, people have had success dealing with the oil pan leak by replacing the rear bolts with new ones and retorquing them one at a time...

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by ForestHillsJackie

I have notified the authorities and they are assembling a SEAL team to remove any mistreated vehicles from your home and rehome them to me ��

I know you're just being humorous, but the MAGA "crowd" (both of them ;-) might NOT appreciate your droll humor:

1) Wha'd'ya mean "mistreated"? My 328xi N52 will be 17-years-old next month, and it doesn't leak A DROP of oil on garage floor or driveway. Only gasket that has ever even seeped in 7 years I've owned it is Oil Sump Gasket (bolts were "snugged-up"). Actually did SAME for VVT Actuator mount/ gasket, but those are NOT aluminum bolts.

Here Endeth the BMW-specific Content -- Rant commences:

2) "Just following Orders" Defense has been "No Defense" for 75+ years, since Nuremberg (SEALS could NOT claim that Defense if ordered to break law).

3) Presidential Immunity (for criminal acts outside governmental authority of President) is completely inconsistent with general constitutional concepts, as well as other similar "Governmental/ Sovereign Immunity" laws.

4) Actual 'Originalists' would note that King (George III) had just been "rebelled against" when constitution adopted. So obviously the concept of a president NOT being criminally liable for anything (immunity) was UNTHINKABLE to "Founding Fathers".

5) The Constitution and Bill of Rights (First 10 Amendments) were generally RESTRICTIONS on the power of federal government, NOT in any way intended to create an "Imperial Presidency". "Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal". (Nixon)

6) Hopefully Supreme Court will refuse to back/ create a tyrant (Dictator on Day 1?) and say "NO WAY" to "Immunity" argument in coming months. There may be enough "crazies" to elect/ coronate "Donald I", or would that be "Don 2.0"?

I know you were "Just Kidding." Unfortunately "Orange Jesus" (as 'affectionately' referenced by GOP) is NOT kidding.
George

[Bims328i]

I have my own theories as to why. Basically, boils down to poor maintenance coupled with bad gasket material and heat cycles as others are so adamant about being such a sheer driving factor in degradation. I think extended interaction with old oil accelerates this in some regards.

Would need to test one BMW engine with constant oil changes against one with overly extended oil changes and poor maintenance to prove anything.

Other factors include more complicated mating surface designs, more difficult areas to seal well, engine vibration loosening fastener over time. Poor predetermined factory torque processes.

[TyroneShoelaces]

Start your automotive journey owning a bunch of aircooled VW's and an occasional porsche and BMW oil issues don't even register as a problem.

[oVeRdOsE.]

CHAT GPT

again, BMW owner jerks

BMW cars are not inherently more prone to oil leaks compared to other vehicles. However, there are several factors that may contribute to the perception that BMWs are more prone to oil leaks:

1-Design and engineering: BMWs are known for their performance-oriented designs, which often involve complex engineering. While this can lead to high performance and driving pleasure, it can also mean more intricate systems that may be more susceptible to leaks if not properly maintained.

2-Age and mileage: Many BMW owners report oil leaks in older models or those with high mileage. Like any vehicle, BMWs may develop leaks over time due to wear and tear on seals, gaskets, and other components.

3-Maintenance issues: Proper maintenance is crucial for preventing oil leaks in any vehicle. Failure to change the oil regularly, use the correct type of oil, or replace worn-out seals and gaskets can increase the likelihood of leaks in BMWs, as well as in any other car.

4-Owner perception: BMW owners may be more vocal about oil leaks compared to owners of other brands, leading to a perception that BMWs are more prone to this issue. This perception may also be influenced by the higher cost of repairs and maintenance associated with luxury vehicles like BMWs.

Overall, while some BMWs may experience oil leaks, it's not accurate to say that they are inherently more prone to this issue than other vehicles. Proper maintenance and care are essential for preventing leaks and ensuring the longevity of any car, regardless of the brand.

for real big part is the gasket design itself. Compare the size, thickness and routing of rubber gasket with toyota/nissan/other non-leaky engine, the bmw one are thin, way too many sharp angles.

Now, add all other stuff members already stated ; different material, hug reheat cycle, torque spec, mandatory syntec oil, etc, and it leaks fast.

I kind of agree with Chat GPT point #1, a lot of people telling me their toyota engine are more reliable. No shit, they are built to hold 500whp, but only produce 90whp... Powa come with great forces.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Bims328i

I have my own theories as to why. Basically, boils down to poor maintenance coupled with bad gasket material and heat cycles as others are so adamant about being such a sheer driving factor in degradation. I think extended interaction with old oil accelerates this in some regards.

Would need to test one BMW engine with constant oil changes against one with overly extended oil changes and poor maintenance to prove anything.

Other factors include more complicated mating surface designs, more difficult areas to seal well, engine vibration loosening fastener over time. Poor predetermined factory torque processes.

I'll be your test case. My E90 saw oil change intervals of up to 18,000 miles. It's average OCI at this point is 12,400 miles over 17 years and 423,000 miles. As of 2022 it sees 5,000 miles per year and an annual oil change. The oil pan started weeping at 200,000 miles. In 2015, I changed the gasket at 293,000 miles. I did use P-tex Ultra Black on the new gasket. It's now been 7 or 8 years and 130,000 miles and the gasket it leak free.

The N52 OPG is simply a crappy design. It starts leaking when it gets old. The N52 and BMWs are not prone to leaking more than other brands. Oil cars with high mileages tend to leak fluids. My 18 year old E30 after 256,000 never leaked oil at the pan nor valve cover. My 27 year old Z3 oil pan is dry as a bone, but the cam chain cover just fricking leaks even after a complete dissambly and re-gasketing. My 2008 N52 Z4 at 120,000, the pan is good and dry, the gasket at the oil cooler (on the OFH) weeps a tiny bit. Valve cover is dry.

The N52 is canted to the right about 15 degrees. The windage plate below the crankshaft drips oil right into the part-line between the lower block and oil pan. Once the gasket turns into hard coal, oil leaks past it.

[Efthreeoh]

Jackie, when you do the oil pan gasket and have to scrape off the old charcoal gasket and see the shifty design of the OPG it will become clear. It's just a bad design. It's like the coaked up meat drippings you occasionally have to clean from your BBQ grill.

[sabino56]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I have a Theory:
Single-use Aluminum Bolts, due to Magnesium-Alloy block

Yeah, I’d guess this was the decision which led to the problem. As an engineer, I’ve lived thru the experience of a “great” idea leading to a host of resulting “minor” problems.

It is/was a great idea for performance and handling to make the block lighter. But now you can’t let steel or iron touch the magnesium so you need to use aluminum bolts if attaching something steel (like the oil pan on my 2006 N52).
Al doesn’t have same modulus as steel so clamping force is less. You can’t fit larger diameter bolts to make up for the lower modulus. To max clamping force you torque to yield but now they are one time use. It’s ok, they won’t have to be replaced during warranty.

I’m sure someone was worried about potential for the gasket to shrink resulting in an oil leak but unlikely anyone had good data on the problem, or at least good enough to offset the value of what a lighter block would bring to the table (which is easily measurable and quantifiable). When you’ve used steel bolts in past and had plenty of clamping force, gasket shrinkage wasn’t something likely to be high on list of problems to study.

All that said, I like that BMW (at least then) put performance at the top of their priorities. I’m ok with the trade off for performance vs PITA oil leaks.
Kinda like my girlfriend - love her dearly and wouldn’t want another. There are a few things which bug me.. but not dealbreakers.

[ForestHillsJackie]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'll be your test case. My E90 saw oil change intervals of up to 18,000 miles. It's average OCI at this point is 12,400 miles over 17 years and 423,000 miles. As of 2022 it sees 5,000 miles per year and an annual oil change. The oil pan started weeping at 200,000 miles. In 2015, I changed the gasket at 293,000 miles. I did use P-tex Ultra Black on the new gasket. It's now been 7 or 8 years and 130,000 miles and the gasket it leak free.

Interesting test case. I got my E90 from a person whose family purchased it new and just handed it down between family members. It spent its first 40,000 in Southern California before coming up to NY. Oil was changed religiously every 6,000 miles, and they kept up with the maintenance (always by a local Indy though)

They kept all the service records, which I logged into a spreadsheet.

At 47,000 they did the valve cover gasket
72,000 OFHG
144,000 valve cover gasket again
160,000 I did the OFHG again.

I also wonder how much skill and technique of the person doing the gasket install plays a factor. Good to know about your success with the permatex black. I’m going to try it when I do the big job.

Jackie

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by ForestHillsJackie

Interesting test case. I got my E90 from a person whose family purchased it new and just handed it down between family members. It spent its first 40,000 in Southern California before coming up to NY. Oil was changed religiously every 6,000 miles, and they kept up with the maintenance (always by a local Indy though)

They kept all the service records, which I logged into a spreadsheet.

At 47,000 they did the valve cover gasket
72,000 OFHG
144,000 valve cover gasket again
160,000 I did the OFHG again.

I also wonder how much skill and technique of the person doing the gasket install plays a factor. Good to know about your success with the permatex black. I’m going to try it when I do the big job.

Jackie

I do think heat cycles have something to do with time and mileage for sure that triggers a gasket failure. My E90 from about 23,000 miles to 410,000 miles had long heat cycles, about 2 hours in the morning and 2 hours in the evening that comprised a 165-mile daily commute. My valve cover gasket never leaked, but I did replace it when I replaced the ESS at 300,000+. The OFHG I've done twice. It probably needs a third replacement but it's not really leaking any attributable amount. The serpentine belt is clean and in place. The E90 (all my cars) now see a 20-minute heat cycle 2x per day, which is a whopping 13 miles one way .

I'm as interested as anyone to see the effects of a 180 deg. change in use case.

[crashoverride]

Not a fan boy but I'm going to push back a bit. These cars are going on twenty years. There isn't very many other brands out there that have cars that still look and drive like an e90.
In addition these are built as higher end sports cars not a simple basic four banger. You would be hard pressed to find any brand 2006-ish car that doesn't leak oil.