[gbalthrop]

A Forum Member in Malaysia has sought help for "Crank, NO Start", with NO voltage at F37 (DME Supply), & CED4 Fault Code
(EKPS NOT receiving signal from DME). Attached is ISTA "DME Supply" ScreenPrint & F37 Location on E9x models built after
9/1/2007 (2008 & Later Models).

Questions:
1) Make/Model Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software (INPA/ISTA) available?
2) Is fuse F37 intact?
3) Is fuse F4 intact?
4) Can your Scan Tool/Software connect with/ read Fault Codes or Live Data in/ DME Module?
5) ALL fault Codes Read in DME Fault Memory?
6) Do you have a Multimeter? Just a cheap ~ $10US DMM is all you need.

If you have no voltage at either F37 socket with Ignition ON, then there is an issue in the supply circuit to activate the K6300
DME Main Relay. If your Tool will NOT connect to DME, then likely there is no voltage supply via F4 fuse to allow DME to "Turn
itself on" via K6300.

If you will provide answers to questions above, I'll suggest NEXT STEPS you can do with a cheap Multimeter/DMM.
George

[gbalthrop]

Since its "Bedtime" in Malaysia, with ~13 hour difference, to reduce delay in question/response time, I'll anticipate several possible
scenarios & offer further tests, simply using multimeter, or patch cables to supply Chassis Ground. New ISTA Diagrams Attached.

1) Fuse F4 blown: If there is no communication with the DME Module, DME may NOT be receiving voltage from F4 fuse.
F4 (10A) Constantly provides battery power to DME, even with ignition OFF. SSP wiring diagram & Location attached.

2) If your Scan Tool CAN communicate with DME, but NO voltage at F37, next step is to test K6300 DME Main Relay.
K6300 is soldered to JB PCB (Junction Box Printed Circuit Board). It SELDOM fails. More likely an issue with Switched Ground
via X11010/1, Pin/Socket #1 of Connector X11010 at the upper-left of JB fuse panel, see Attached ISTA diagrams.
There have been reported cases of corrosion or pin/socket damage at X11010 where Red/Gray wire supplies ground signal
for DME Main Relay Electromagnet coil activation (to activate K6300, close contacts, & supply voltage to F37).

If you have difficulty getting X11010 Connector loose, you can simply stick a pin or needle through the insulation of the
Red/Gray wire that goes to X11010/1 socket, & apply Chassis Ground to the wire inside that insulation. See if the K6300
Main Relay "Clicks" when ground applied. If so, Relay is OK & issue is with wiring, or perhaps DME Pin/Socket X60005/13,
common failure point, with broken pin.

3) If F4 is intact, but still NO communication with DME, & NO voltage at ONE of F37 Sockets, check X6011 in E-Box. Attachments.
Be very careful HOW you open the E-box, as any damage to the seals can allow water ingress to Box containing DME &
all its connectors, resulting in major issues, particularly in damp/wet climates (yours ;-) Let us know if you need procedures.
Open E-Box ONLY after doing other tests.

NOTE that both F4 voltage supply (via X6011/10) & Ground Signal from DME X60005/13 (via X6011/5) pass through Connector
X6011 in the E-box, so check for any corrosion or loose connections at that connector. There is NO removable relay
related to your issue.

There are other things to check, so please don't "Throw Parts" until you report your test results & do further tests.
George

[davidkong2976]

Hello George,
Thank you for setting this up & hello to everyone as well. I know there have been many threads on this topic, I would like to say I read most of them (if not all) & have tried to follow through on the steps in other post, somehow it does not help/or identify the issues that I am facing with my car.

Answer to your questions, George:
Questions:
1) Make/Model Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software (INPA/ISTA) available?
Yes, I have INPA & ISTA.
My INPA version description is BimmerGeeks.Net version 10/10/2017.
Point to note, my F6 activate options is very different from what I have read in other threads, see attached. I also attached the error codes that I have captured via INPA titled "fuel pump". Thing to note is, when I pushed ignition on, I could hear fuel pump priming & it seem to be non stop priming. I am unsure if this is normal. I removed fuse F70 (which for my car is to control the fuel pump) & of course this stop power to the fuel pump. Re-insert F70, fuel pump with ignition on, priming again. I guess fuel pump is OK then? I do not know.


2) Is fuse F37 intact?
Yes, continuity test checked out. F37 is intact.

3) Is fuse F4 intact?
Yes, intact.

4) Can your Scan Tool/Software connect with/ read Fault Codes or Live Data in/ DME Module?
INPA & ISTA able to connect but I do not know how to use ISTA to my advantage. Educate me, please.

5) ALL fault Codes Read in DME Fault Memory?
Yes, attached.

6) Do you have a Multimeter? Just a cheap ~ $10US DMM is all you need.
Yes, I did.

[davidkong2976]

2nd part of my reply, George just to ensure I did not muddled your questions up.

1. F04 does not see to have any voltages at all, regardless with ignition on or off, or if I just push the key fob in without pushing the start (ignition on).

2. No voltage at F37 as well, regardless ignition on or off.

3. I am unsure if I could communicate with scan tools to DME, attached is what I capture on my mobile while trying to use ISTA.

Also, I noticed that my climate controller display, as attached, is dim. Is this part of the contributing problem, or separate issues altogether & unrelated?

My battery was replaced, maybe around 6 weeks ago, battery specifications 75Ah with 590 CCA. Is this OK? I tried to jump start the car at the terminal under hood, but still the car crank but would not start.

I have also swapped out relay 61366915327, thinking that might be the issue as I read in other threads., but to no avail.

Also, just to be clear, X11010 plug is the one, I circled with white line?

I would try now to check on the steps you prescribed on X11010 & X6011. I have opened the E-box previously to replace the relay 61366915327.

[davidkong2976]

Sorry for the large pictures. 1st time posting, did not know it would be like this.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

... I have INPA & ISTA. My INPA version description is BimmerGeeks.Net version 10/10/2017... my F6 activate options is very different from what I have read in other threads, see attached. [You attached "Functional Jobs Activations; see below] I also attached the error codes that I have captured via INPA titled "fuel pump".[You attached "Functional Jobs, F4 > F1, Error Memory, ALL Modules; see below]... I do not know how to use ISTA to my advantage. Educate me, please. [See attached pdf: Fault Memory & Test Plan]...

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

... 1. F04 does not see to have any voltages at all, regardless with ignition on or off, or if I just push the key fob in without pushing the start (ignition on). [I presume you mean fuse F4, as shown on top row of fuses of JB Fuse Panel in first attachment to Post #2? Earlier E9x models (built before 3/1/2007) had a fuse "F04", located in E-box where DME is located. That's NOT relevant in your case.]
2. No voltage at F37 as well, regardless ignition on or off. [That is consistent with NO power to the DME via fuse F4. See Below.]
3. I am unsure if I could communicate with scan tools to DME, attached is what I capture on my mobile while trying to use ISTA. [Red DME on "ISTA Control Unit Tree" (your 3rd attachment) means NO Communication with DME. Same for NO "12 DME" between "1 MRS" & "17 EKP" in your INPA "Error Memory, All Modules". For sure the DME is NOT powered via fuse F4.]
Also, I noticed that my climate controller display, as attached, is dim. Is this part of the contributing problem, or separate issues altogether & unrelated? [78 KLIMA has 4 fault codes on Functional Jobs, Error Memory, ALL modules, so it is communicating, but has Fault Codes UNRELATED to Crank, NO Start. We can diagnose that AFTER we get engine running.]
My battery was replaced, maybe around 6 weeks ago, battery specifications 75Ah with 590 CCA. Is this OK? [Small, but NOT the cause of Crank, NO Start.]... Also, just to be clear, X11010 plug is the one, I circled with white line? [Don't see that connector or any white line/diagram?]
I would try now to check on the steps you prescribed on X11010 & X6011. I have opened the E-box previously to replace the relay 61366915327. [That relay is for VVT/Valvetronic power for actuator, & NOT related to DME power supply. Didn't hurt anything to replace it, but keep old relay, as it is likely still good.]

Hi David,
First we need to get power to DME via fuse F4, so (1) You can communicate with DME with INPA/ISTA, and hopefully get K6300 DME Main Relay, soldered to JB (Junction Box) Printed Circuit Board to function to power F37 & the DME functions. Only Tool you can use to determine WHY the DME is NOT communicating with INPA or ISTA is a Multimeter.

Check AGAIN to see if there is Battery Voltage at either socket of fuse F4, on top row of fuses on JB Fuse Panel, beneath Glovebox. There SHOULD be voltage at one of the two sockets after removal of the fuse, REGARDLESS of Ignition ON/OFF. If there IS battery voltage at one of the two sockets, & F4 has continuity between its two spades, then apply Chassis Ground to the Red/Gray wire at X11010/1, and listen for "Click" of K6300 relay, soldered to JB PCB. If that produces CLICK, see if engine NOW starts with ground applied to X11010/1, Red/Gray wire.

That will NOT "Fix" the cause of Crank, NO Start, but it will identify what needs to be tested next. If work has been done in area of the E-box, check to make sure the Chassis Ground Brown Wires are connected to X6454. I'll attach ISTA diagram of that stud with nut to NEXT Post, so you'll know what to check.

It's after 2AM here, so I'll just refer you to the previously supplied ScreenPrints and attach pdf's that explain the basics of INPA & ISTA. Even though you can't connect to the DME, likely because it is lacking either Voltage supply, or Chassis Ground, you CAN connect to other modules & experiment with the various INPA/ISTA functions, such as beginning with Connecting to the EKPS Fuel Pump Module. Time spent learning the basics of INPA & ISTA is well-spent. It should enable you to understand HOW the DME is powered, & HOW to use basic functions of INPA & ISTA.

Please let us know what you find, & see Next Post for DME ground location.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached is ISTA ScreenPrint showing X6454 Chassis Ground Point for 4 Brown DME Ground wires. That nut needs to be
snug on Stud to complete the circuit for power supply to DME.
George

[davidkong2976]

Hello George I missed out in sending pictures of X11010, but I know which is this and which is pin 1. I could see pin 6 and 10 on the socket. Unfortunately the car died on a curb and I need to leave it there, and it is raining, I am unable to proceed to check on the ground for X11010 and X6011.

For fuse F4 (you are right, I mistype it as F04) - how much voltage should I see on this. I set my DMM on 20V range, and I get 0. When I set it to the 200mV range, I get 0 as well. Does it look normal with the symptoms I am facing?

[davidkong2976]

Update George. I stick a clip into F4 fuse slot (with F4 fuse removed of course) & I get a reading: voltage @ 2.31V - it fluctuate slightly but that is the reading.

[davidkong2976]

Hello George,
For this here:
then apply Chassis Ground to the Red/Gray wire at X11010/1, and listen for "Click" of K6300 relay, soldered to JB PCB. If that produces CLICK, see if engine NOW starts with ground applied to X11010/1, Red/Gray wire.

Do I remove X11010 plug and apply chassis ground to pin 1, or I need to keep the plug connected and apply chassis ground to pin 1?

Update:
I use a pin, chassis ground pin 1 of X11010 with X11010 plugged in, plugged in F4as well, start the car to no avail.

[davidkong2976]

Further update, George.
I re-measure again the voltage @ F4 - I got >11 volts (around 11.65V). I chassis ground pin 1 of X11010 but sadly, I do not hear the relay K6300 "click". Not at all, no matter how faint it is.
Does it mean K6300 is dead?

Due to rain, I am unable to check on X6011. I will do so tomorrow.

Regardless, I chassis ground pin 1 (on X11010) and try to start the car, not working, car would not start.

Then I re-measure again fuse F4, voltage around 10.95V.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

... For fuse F4 - how much voltage should I see on this? [Battery Voltage, as measured at Jumpstart Terminals.] I set my DMM on 20V range, and I get 0. When I set it to the 200mV range, I get 0 as well. [You have NO voltage at either F4 Socket; See Below.]...

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

Update George. I stick a clip into F4 fuse slot (with F4 fuse removed of course) & I get a reading: voltage @ 2.31V - it fluctuate slightly but that is the reading.

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

... Do I remove X11010 plug and apply chassis ground to pin 1, or I need to keep the plug connected and apply chassis ground to pin 1? [For purposes of TESTING activation of K6300 DME Main Relay, you can remove the X11010 connector & apply ground to Pin #1, to see if Relay K6300 CLICKS. If you can "Back-Probe" that socket of the connector (get contact with metal socket from the rear of the connector, without damaging the wiring/insulation, that would be preferable. You can even stick a pin or needle through the Red/Gray insulation, to contact the wire, & apply Chassis Ground to the Needle.]
Update:
I use a pin, chassis ground pin 1 of X11010 with X11010 plugged in, plugged in F4as well, start the car to no avail. [If you hear NO relay CLICK when applying ground, don't bother trying to start car. You do NOT need to insert F4 for K6300 relay activation test. Relay gets power elsewhere; see below.]

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

Further update... I re-measure again the voltage @ F4 - I got >11 volts (around 11.65V). I chassis ground pin 1 of X11010 but sadly, I do not hear the relay K6300 "click". Not at all, no matter how faint it is... Then I re-measure again fuse F4, voltage around 10.95V.

I'm NOT familiar with ECE 323i models. E9x models in some world markets had a recall associated with X13020 connector, which supplies Battery B+ to the entire JB Fuse Panel. You stated initially that your Climate Control Panel was dim. Your photo suggested an issue with the LCD display, so I assumed that was NOT relevant to Crank, NO Start. Also, you did NOT report any other issue with components powered via the JB Fuse Panel (MOST components in the car).

Your current reports of fluctuating Voltage at F4 fuse socket suggest either:
1) Fluctuating power supply (via Connector X13020, or otherwise), or
2) Difficulty measuring voltage at that fuse socket (F4).

If fuse F4 is getting power via X13020 and internal JB connections, then with fuse F4 reinserted, you SHOULD be able to communicate with the DME with INPA or ISTA. The first step should be to try to get Battery Voltage at F4 Fuse Socket, AND be able to communicate with DME. It is NOT necessary to have K6300 Main Relay activated to communicate with DME.

I will attach an additional ISTA ScreenPrint to NEXT Post, showing F4 SSP circuit & Location of X13020 connector supplying battery power to the JB Panel. You might try GENTLY manipulating that X13020 connection to see if slight movement affects Voltage at F4 socket, IHKA display, Blower Motor function, etc.

In summary, focus ONLY on getting battery voltage at F4 Fuse Socket, & being able to connect with DME using INPA/ISTA. (F4 fuse reinserted).
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached is ISTA ScreenPrint of F4 circuit (SSP) & X13020 Connector Location, per Prior Post.
George

[davidkong2976]

Not familiar with ECE, that is all good & fine, George. You have been very kind to me from the word get go & all the things that you have shared is gold to me. In fact, you and some others in this forum are the main reason why I decided to buy this car in the 1st place & learn to do all this.
It is raining again here today (monsoon season) so no chance for me to do any measurements.

I will view that the fluctuations on the voltage @ F4 fuse is due to me - I did not measure it right. I aim to confirm the measurements again tomorrow and this time more diligent about it. I believe the voltage around 10.95V (before try to start I get > 11.5V) is correct. II did measure the voltage at jump terminal and it is > 12.5V.

Just to be sure, meaning if there is voltage on F4, I should have communication to the DME? How do I prove this via ISTA?
Or how should I use INPA to verify this?

Also, on my car, all other features (except the display on the climate controller dimming) work - from comfort access (this is the part where I could use the hand on the handle to unlock/lock the car, right?) , remote control, radio etc everything work. Just this odd thing about cranking but not starting.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

... if there is voltage on F4, I should have communication to the DME? How do I prove this via ISTA?
Or how should I use INPA to verify this?...

INPA & ISTA each show if a module (here the DME) is NOT communicating. You have already posted TWO screenprints showing NO DME communication:

1) In Post #3 you attached "fuel pump.pdf". That was a screenprint of INPA > Functional Jobs > F4 > F1 Error Memory, ALL Modules. There was NO "12 DME" reporting DME Error Memory. It SHOULD appear below "01 MRS" & above "17 EKP". Since there is NO "12 DME" line, we know the DME either has NO Power supply, No Chassis Ground, or NO PT-CAN Bus connection. Other Modules on the PT-CAN Bus: 17 EKP Fuel Pump, 18 EGS, & 29 DSC appear, so the PT-CAN Bus is working/ connected to JBE "Hub".

2) In Post #4, your 3rd attachment was the ISTA "Control Unit Tree". That showed the DME "RED", which means (as stated in bottom-right corner of screen) "ECU not responding", or NO communication from the DME (can't read Fault Codes).

There are a LOT of details in both INPA & ISTA. Don't expect to be able to see or appreciate ALL of those details immediately. Just continue to think & ask questions, & you will learn something new each time you use the software.

I have saved a ScreenPrint of each screen in INPA & ISTA, with a Folder for each Module. I would NEVER remember what INPUTS are on each F5 Status screen in INPA, or Diagnosis Scan tab screen in ISTA. It also is helpful to have a "baseline" or correct values for sensor INPUTS to DME, with engine at idle, or simply Ignition ON, Engine OFF. That's a LOT of work, so don't feel like you need to do that, particularly NOW.

I would suggest your immediate goal is to determine WHY the DME is NOT communicating -- find the cause of lack of power/ground to, or Bus communication with, the DME. If there is power to the DME electronics via the F4 fuse circuit, & you have bus connection (ignore bus for the moment), you will see "12 DME" in INPA & DME will be Yellow (if fault codes present), or Green (NO faults) in ISTA "Tree". Even if you still have "Crank, NO Start" condition, you will at least be able to see Fault Codes, Freeze Frame Data, & Live Data (INPUTS to) from the DME, & THAT is what is needed to "FIX" the problem.

Be aware that even if there is voltage at fuse F4 socket(s), that power must still be received by the DME at X60003/1 (Socket #1 of Connector X60003 at the DME, in the E-box under the hood). You stated that you previously opened the E-Box to replace the VVT Relay, so you know how to open that box. You obviously want to AVOID getting water in that box.

The only way to make sure the DME is getting power is to test voltage at X60003/1 socket (as well as testing for continuity to Chassis Ground at X60003/3,4,5,6 -- all 4 ground sockets). Remember that F4 Power supply must go through Connector X6011/10 to get to the DME.

Since I have NOT previously provided information on X60003 connector at the DME, I will attach some ScreenPrints to NEXT Post.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached are ISTA ScreenPrints showing DME Power Supply SSP, Location of the DME Connectors, including X60003, &
Connector View of X60003 (to identify Sockets/Pins by number), per prior post.
George

[davidkong2976]

George, just to check, am I right here, picture titled "X60003 pin 1" - that is X60003 connector, correct?
I measured pin 1 with 11.82V.
I also tested all other pins (3,4,5,6), continuity checked out, all to chassis ground, connected. Pin2 no effect on anything - no voltage no ground.

I re-measure voltage at battery jump terminal (11.69V) and also fuse F4 (with fuse & with fuse removed @ between 10.03V to 10.1V.

Battery voltage measured @ 11.60V.


I try again with ISTA & INPA. Still no communication with DME. Am I measuring at the wrong connector?

What is the next best step moving forward? Pulled the DME unit out?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by davidkong2976

George, just to check, am I right here, picture titled "X60003 pin 1" - that is X60003 connector, correct? I measured pin 1 with 11.82V. I also tested all other pins (3,4,5,6), continuity checked out, all to chassis ground, connected. Pin2 no effect on anything - no voltage no ground.
I re-measure voltage at battery jump terminal (11.69V) and also fuse F4 (with fuse & with fuse removed @ between 10.03V to 10.1V. Battery voltage measured @ 11.60V. I try again with ISTA & INPA. Still no communication with DME. Am I measuring at the wrong connector?
What is the next best step moving forward? Pulled the DME unit out?

I have never had occasion to open my E-box, so am merely going by the ISTA SSP wiring diagrams. They clearly show X60003 Connector as a "6-pin" connector. The Red wire at Socket #1 should have 12V+ or battery voltage at all times. The Orange wire at Socket #2 should ONLY have voltage when Ignition is ON & the K6300 DME Main Relay is activated. That relay CANNOT be activated when you have X60003 Connector removed for your testing.

If you have battery Voltage at Socket #1 (Red wire) & Continuity to Chassis Ground at Sockets #3,4,5,6 (Brown wires), then you SHOULD have communication with DME (AFTER RE-connecting X60003) using either INPA or ISTA unless:
1) There is a broken or cracked pin (or damaged socket) at one of the six pins at X60003;
2) There is corrosion or pin/socket damage at one of the two PT-CAN wires: Red wire at X60001/1, or Blue/Red wire at X60001/14; I will attach ScreenPrint of that Connector to NEXT Post;
3) The DME itself has issues.

Since your other 3 PT-CAN Modules (EKP, EGS, DSC) communicate on INPA/ISTA, then the PT-CAN wiring is generally good & any Bus issue (IF ANY), should be at X60001 DME Connector.

Your Battery Voltage is getting low. It's still OK for testing, but may (soon) not crank the Starter. Try to get that back up to 12.0V at minimum, measured 30 minutes or more after disconnecting Booster or Jumper Cables. I realize the car is outside, at a curb, & charging battery may be difficult. Use Jumper Cables ONLY at Jumpstart Terminals under hood. Connecting to Battery at Rear can damage IBS.

I would carefully examine ALL pins & sockets of X60003, & also X60001/1 & 14 (PT-CAN). If nothing is found there, then remove, inspect, & have DME tested. Perhaps more often then NOT, DME's test OK and the cause of the issue is in Connector Pins/Sockets, or the vehicle wiring.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached is ScreenPrint of X60001 Connector View. The Sockets X60001/1 & 14 are next to each other at the end of Connector.
If there is ANY doubt about corrosion, GENTLY clean pins & sockets with Electronic Contact Cleaner & reassemble/test.
George

[davidkong2976]

Hello George,
on connector X60003, pin 2, when I set the car to ignition on, I get only 0.068 volts on pin 2 (Orange colour). I read from this post here, expected to get 12V? https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1744657

I just would like to check if that voltage make sense?

Also, my relay KL30G - the black relay on right hand side of JB box, is really hot. Is this normal as well? I understand it is always on?

[ptpending]

yes, this is load relay, it should be pretty warm

[davidkong2976]

Hello ptpending, thank you for your reply.

Some update:
I removed my DME and sent it for testing. It has been confirmed my DME has passed away peacefully.
I have asked the specialist to repair it, will know sometime next week if this is the source of my issues. I did dismantle the DME before sending it for repair. I could see water stains on it which is very surprising for me. My E Box was dry.
I am going to drill few holes in the E box later next week, so that water won't get clogged again.

Problem with DME is failure to identify.