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      03-31-2010, 09:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'll be happy to do that. But before i take the time to do that, I have to ask:

Would the results of this test put this debate to bed?

Shiv
IMO the debate isn't whether offsetting CPS can make a timing light move at idle. The real debate is whether there is any real and measurable benefit to it.

On direct and indirect timing per the chart. The flash tune has full control over setting the exact timing curve and the aggressiveness in which it responds to knock activity. That is direct timing control IMO.

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      03-31-2010, 09:52 PM   #46
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Thanks -- I am definately going with GIAC.
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      03-31-2010, 09:53 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
IMO the debate isn't whether offsetting CPS can make a timing light move at idle. The real debate is whether there is any real and measurable benefit to it.

On direct and indirect timing per the chart. The flash tune has full control over setting the exact timing curve and the aggressiveness in which it responds to knock activity. That is direct timing control IMO.

Mike
lol...IMO?

This debate has NOTHING to do with anyone's opinions. This has to do with fact. Nor does it have anything to do with whether you believe that adjusting timing in either direction (which is what is proven by a timing light test) has a real world benefit.

So let's talk fact for the sake of everyone reading this.

Please answer:
What precisely can a flash can do with respect to ignition timing mapping that the procede can't?

BTW, I noticed that you are now, all of a sudden, talking about knock control logic for the first time. Which I find interesting. But we can get to that later.

Shiv
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      03-31-2010, 10:03 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
IMO the debate isn't whether offsetting CPS can make a timing light move at idle. The real debate is whether there is any real and measurable benefit to it.

On direct and indirect timing per the chart. The flash tune has full control over setting the exact timing curve and the aggressiveness in which it responds to knock activity. That is direct timing control IMO.

Mike
The real debate is that you claim we are not controlling ignition timing... not whether it makes a difference which is a seperate debate. If you are really debating what you say, then you would happily say that the Procede controls ignition timing, but you think it is not necessary... can you say that? Instead you claim that the Procede does not control ignition timing which it does.

I can tell you that you can do the timing light test at idle or at full noise on a dyno and you will get the same result. I can also tell you that even in a flash tune, the mapping of the ignition advance will be altered by the knock control just like it will be with the Procede with CPS.

You have made up some definitions of direct and indirect ignition timing control. You claim that your definition of direct is better because it can specify the actual ignition advance than the Procede which applies an offset, but in the real world there is no difference, and both can result in the same mappable igniiton result, and both then have this result altered by the knock control. There is no difference in the capabiliities of a flash and the Procede in regards to ignition control unless you disable the knock control in the flash which would then give you "direct" control at the expense of safety. Both can set the base ignition advance to the desired amount, and both then have this base altered by the knock control.

The issue here is that you would rather argue that Procede does not offer ignition control than argue that it does, but you think it is not necessary which is what you really think... and you are just confusing people. Please just say what you think rather than confusing everybody.

I can assure you that the Procede does offer ignition control and we can prove it... either with a timing light, or on a dyno by doing a dyno run with 5 degrees retarded to show the power loss. Whether or not it is of benefit we can then argue about. We will of course argue that every tuning theory agrees that retarding ignition is a good idea. You will argue that it is not necessary because the BMWs are some super DME that negates that need. You will then argue that you have lots of reliable data to prove otherwise. You have millions of miles on JB3s with no problems... I am glad you rely on your customers for the millions of miles to prove your theories. We did not want to take that risk on customers cars, so we did it properly.

Adrian
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      03-31-2010, 10:17 PM   #49
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Never piss off an engineer. I've seen Adrian lift a WRX above his head and use it as a bludgeoning device when someone argued that carburetors are the way of the future.
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      03-31-2010, 10:26 PM   #50
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and this is still why i dont have any tune.. i don't understand crap
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      03-31-2010, 10:26 PM   #51
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      03-31-2010, 10:30 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
You have made up some definitions of direct and indirect ignition timing control. You claim that your definition of direct is better because it can specify the actual ignition advance than the Procede which applies an offset, but in the real world there is no difference, and both can result in the same mappable igniiton result, and both then have this result altered by the knock control. There is no difference in the capabiliities of a flash and the Procede in regards to ignition ....
Exactly. I think most people understand this:

Flash says 8, result = 8
Procede sees 4 and needs 8, it adds 4 + 4 = 8

No difference.

I think the indirect vs direct argument is only done to muddy the waters for obvious reasons.
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      03-31-2010, 10:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducati955 View Post


and this is still why i dont have any tune.. i don't understand crap
And that is EXACTLY how some people want you. Confused. And I don't blame you. New terms are being invented for marketing purposes. And it's nothing short of deceitful.

Fortunately, the basic tuning concepts are very simple to understand. Once you do, you can separate the noise from the signal with minimal effort.

For a basic introduction:
http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-62.html

Or here's something more in-depth with a focus on stand alone ecu tuning. Some jackass wrong it back in the 90s (but recently reprinted). Where's my stinking royalty?
http://www.modified.com/projectcars/...xii/index.html

Last edited by OpenFlash; 03-31-2010 at 10:55 PM..
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      03-31-2010, 10:38 PM   #54
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Okay guys, thanks for clarifying my "control timing" question. I also look forward to seeing the results.

In regards to the rest of my questions/chart, I think it would be useful if I take the next couple of days to come up with a chart to inform newbies and the misinformed on what each tune really can do with their n54. I'm not biased on any tune (although I have the PROcede); it's just that I was once in the shoes of not knowing anything and posting questions, which would turn into wars with biases of people leaning towards their tunes and led to no answers for my questions. If I come up with a chart independently, which would include feedback from end-users of all parties as to what features each tune has, then hopefully we will have an accurate chart that will serve to limit those types of debates on the forum while also giving accurate data to anyone who cares.
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      03-31-2010, 10:40 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltecBX View Post
Okay guys, thanks for clarifying my "control timing" question. I also look forward to seeing the results.

In regards to the rest of my questions/chart, I think it would be useful if I take the next couple of days to come up with a chart to inform newbies and the misinformed on what each tune really can do with their n54. I'm not biased on any tune (although I have the PROcede); it's just that I was once in the shoes of not knowing anything and posting questions, which would turn into wars with biases of people leaning towards their tunes and led to no answers for my questions. If I come up with a chart independently, which would include feedback from end-users of all parties as to what features each tune has, then hopefully we will have an accurate chart that will serve to limit those types of debates on the forum while also giving accurate data to anyone who cares.
I say go for it. Not sure if others will agree.

shiv
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      03-31-2010, 10:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducati955 View Post


and this is still why i dont have any tune.. i don't understand crap
can you still have a tune when you do not understand a single thing..lol just has to be a dummy proved one.
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      03-31-2010, 10:59 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post


Never piss off an engineer. I've seen Adrian lift a WRX above his head and use it as a bludgeoning device when someone argued that carburetors are the way of the future.
+1 ..always remember not to piss of the pro
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      03-31-2010, 11:01 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post


Never piss off an engineer. I've seen Adrian lift a WRX above his head and use it as a bludgeoning device when someone argued that carburetors are the way of the future.
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      03-31-2010, 11:06 PM   #59
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Or here's something more in-depth with a focus on stand alone ecu tuning. Some jackass wrong it back in the 90s (but recently reprinted). Where's my stinking royalty?
http://www.modified.com/projectcars/...xii/index.html[/QUOTE]


HA! i remember that article. I always wanted to race that Subaru. Memories.
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      03-31-2010, 11:48 PM   #60
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just quoting this incase anyone missed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian@vishnu View Post
The real debate is that you claim we are not controlling ignition timing... not whether it makes a difference which is a seperate debate. If you are really debating what you say, then you would happily say that the Procede controls ignition timing, but you think it is not necessary... can you say that? Instead you claim that the Procede does not control ignition timing which it does.

I can tell you that you can do the timing light test at idle or at full noise on a dyno and you will get the same result. I can also tell you that even in a flash tune, the mapping of the ignition advance will be altered by the knock control just like it will be with the Procede with CPS.

You have made up some definitions of direct and indirect ignition timing control. You claim that your definition of direct is better because it can specify the actual ignition advance than the Procede which applies an offset, but in the real world there is no difference, and both can result in the same mappable igniiton result, and both then have this result altered by the knock control. There is no difference in the capabiliities of a flash and the Procede in regards to ignition control unless you disable the knock control in the flash which would then give you "direct" control at the expense of safety. Both can set the base ignition advance to the desired amount, and both then have this base altered by the knock control.

The issue here is that you would rather argue that Procede does not offer ignition control than argue that it does, but you think it is not necessary which is what you really think... and you are just confusing people. Please just say what you think rather than confusing everybody.

I can assure you that the Procede does offer ignition control and we can prove it... either with a timing light, or on a dyno by doing a dyno run with 5 degrees retarded to show the power loss. Whether or not it is of benefit we can then argue about. We will of course argue that every tuning theory agrees that retarding ignition is a good idea. You will argue that it is not necessary because the BMWs are some super DME that negates that need. You will then argue that you have lots of reliable data to prove otherwise. You have millions of miles on JB3s with no problems... I am glad you rely on your customers for the millions of miles to prove your theories. We did not want to take that risk on customers cars, so we did it properly.

Adrian
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      04-01-2010, 06:50 AM   #61
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There is no reason for me to debate the merits of CPS vs. flash timing mapping. You and Adrian can take it up with a flash tuner if you're so inclined. But the basic differences are glaring. Not only can the flash tune can hold timing below knock threshold but as I said the entire response can be remapped.

As I said the real debate is whether there is a practical benefit to CPS and history has given us a clear answer on that. JB3 cars put up comparable numbers and time slips on pump gas, as Adrian pointed out there are tens (hundreds?) of millions of heavily boosted miles without failure, plugs look good with no signs of knock damage, etc. We have been through this many times before so there is no point continuing as the discussion is going to go down the same path.

Mike
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      04-01-2010, 08:20 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
There is no reason for me to debate the merits of CPS vs. flash timing mapping. You and Adrian can take it up with a flash tuner if you're so inclined. But the basic differences are glaring. Not only can the flash tune can hold timing below knock threshold but as I said the entire response can be remapped.
If the differences are so glaring, please explain. Hold timing below the knock threshold? Entire response can be remapped? For the sake of clarity, could you elaborate?

Quote:
As I said the real debate is whether there is a practical benefit to CPS and history has given us a clear answer on that.
Nope. The real issue her is why you continue to mislead people by stating that the Procede, unlike a reflash, offers no timing control.

Quote:
JB3 cars put up comparable numbers and time slips on pump gas, as Adrian pointed out there are tens (hundreds?) of millions of heavily boosted miles without failure, plugs look good with no signs of knock damage, etc. We have been through this many times before so there is no point continuing as the discussion is going to go down the same path.
Debatable for sure. But, again, not the point. Please address my question above.

Shiv
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      04-01-2010, 10:28 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
There is no reason for me to debate the merits of CPS vs. flash timing mapping. You and Adrian can take it up with a flash tuner if you're so inclined. But the basic differences are glaring. Not only can the flash tune can hold timing below knock threshold but as I said the entire response can be remapped.

As I said the real debate is whether there is a practical benefit to CPS and history has given us a clear answer on that. JB3 cars put up comparable numbers and time slips on pump gas, as Adrian pointed out there are tens (hundreds?) of millions of heavily boosted miles without failure, plugs look good with no signs of knock damage, etc. We have been through this many times before so there is no point continuing as the discussion is going to go down the same path.
Mike
+1
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      04-01-2010, 01:01 PM   #64
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Mike, Shiv,
Looks to me like the main point of contention it the fact that the chart posted by the OP shows that Procede cannot control timing, which it misleading since it can, although through modification of the original timing signal. Whether or not this modification of timing creates an improvement to performance is a moot point as far as the OP's original questions are concerned. The modification of the timing done by the Procede, at least from what I can tell, is not for an improvement in performance, but an improvement in safety and reliability. The fact that there are so many JB3's out there, with millions of miles logged with no issues is proof that the JB3 has a good tune. The same can be said for the Procede as well. The guys at BMS and Vishnu have just gone about their tunes in a different way. It's almost like comparing apples to oranges. Sure both are fruit, and make for a great snack, but they come in a different package, and provide a different nutritional content. As for the chart itself, although I don't know it's origin, it was clearly made by someone in the BMS camp for product advertisement and shows misinformation, incorrect information, and lack of whole picture.

AltecBX, I think it would be a great idea to create an 'unbiased' comparison chart for the available tune options. It should have input from all camps to ensure the correct information is being put out about their products. It should also have updated information to include the new versions of the tunes that have come out in the last few months. I know Shiv has been in constant upgrade mode recently, so this may be a bit more difficult to keep updated. It would be a great help to the undecided (like myself), and tune newbies. I thank you for offering to put forth your effort to help quell the tune fights.
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      04-01-2010, 01:12 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluidkaos View Post
Mike, Shiv,
Looks to me like the main point of contention it the fact that the chart posted by the OP shows that Procede cannot control timing, which it misleading since it can, although through modification of the original timing signal. Whether or not this modification of timing creates an improvement to performance is a moot point as far as the OP's original questions are concerned. The modification of the timing done by the Procede, at least from what I can tell, is not for an improvement in performance, but an improvement in safety and reliability. The fact that there are so many JB3's out there, with millions of miles logged with no issues is proof that the JB3 has a good tune. The same can be said for the Procede as well. The guys at BMS and Vishnu have just gone about their tunes in a different way. It's almost like comparing apples to oranges. Sure both are fruit, and make for a great snack, but they come in a different package, and provide a different nutritional content. As for the chart itself, although I don't know it's origin, it was clearly made by someone in the BMS camp for product advertisement and shows misinformation, incorrect information, and lack of whole picture.

AltecBX, I think it would be a great idea to create an 'unbiased' comparison chart for the available tune options. It should have input from all camps to ensure the correct information is being put out about their products. It should also have updated information to include the new versions of the tunes that have come out in the last few months. I know Shiv has been in constant upgrade mode recently, so this may be a bit more difficult to keep updated. It would be a great help to the undecided (like myself), and tune newbies. I thank you for offering to put forth your effort to help quell the tune fights.
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      04-01-2010, 02:13 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluidkaos View Post
Mike, Shiv,
Looks to me like the main point of contention it the fact that the chart posted by the OP shows that Procede cannot control timing, which it misleading since it can, although through modification of the original timing signal. Whether or not this modification of timing creates an improvement to performance is a moot point as far as the OP's original questions are concerned. The modification of the timing done by the Procede, at least from what I can tell, is not for an improvement in performance, but an improvement in safety and reliability. The fact that there are so many JB3's out there, with millions of miles logged with no issues is proof that the JB3 has a good tune. The same can be said for the Procede as well. The guys at BMS and Vishnu have just gone about their tunes in a different way. It's almost like comparing apples to oranges. Sure both are fruit, and make for a great snack, but they come in a different package, and provide a different nutritional content. As for the chart itself, although I don't know it's origin, it was clearly made by someone in the BMS camp for product advertisement and shows misinformation, incorrect information, and lack of whole picture.

AltecBX, I think it would be a great idea to create an 'unbiased' comparison chart for the available tune options. It should have input from all camps to ensure the correct information is being put out about their products. It should also have updated information to include the new versions of the tunes that have come out in the last few months. I know Shiv has been in constant upgrade mode recently, so this may be a bit more difficult to keep updated. It would be a great help to the undecided (like myself), and tune newbies. I thank you for offering to put forth your effort to help quell the tune fights.
That's what I'm working on. I hope both camps and fellow technical members can chime in their input without arguments.
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