[Black Gold]

Full disclosure

-I had procede v5 on my car for one week and liked the way it performed. I did not like the fact that it was physically installed and the fact that if i were stranded i would be forced to remove it on the side of the road in the event of a hpfp failure.

-I now own a cobb tune, which i feel is similarly excellent and like the installation process better. I also am looking forward to getting dyno tuned.

THAT BEING SAID

Why is BMW different? As far as I know, NO other platform uses piggy back tuning devices. Mazdaspeed, subaru, mitsu, audi, chevy ALL use ECU flash devices. In fact, vishnu's procede piggybacks are non existant in the subaru and mitsu world although they are still apparently sold. Tunes such as Cobb and other OS tuning and other companies have taken over using flash tunes with great success. In fact, there is no debate whatsoever that flash tunes are the way to go on those platforms.

What makes tuning BMW's different? Why is this the only platform that uses piggy backs? Why would a flash work on every other car brand, but not this car? Specifically spell out for me why they failed on subie/mitsu, and why they are the answer here and flash tuning isnt? What is different?

No marketing tactics, no BS, just answers please. I am far from a tuning expert, and if there are legitimate reasons with valid proof behind them, id love to hear them.

EDIT: AND if the answer is that BMW somehow has more sophisticated "encryption" than those other brands, which i find to be BS as other cars are known to be tuner bait more than BMW, provide specific hard evidence that this is the case, not theory please.

I'll hang up and listen.

[Al Blue4.6l]

my knowledge is limited, but I was shocked when I bought the 335 that end user flash tunes were simply not available. I realize that things like procede are fairly advanced, but it feels like the BMW tuning world is just now catching up to where everyone else was a decade ago. it reminds me of the (very) dark days of the original Superchips.

the excuse used to be that BMW's DME was incredibly complex and required very long flashes...but that clearly is not true.

[smokinbarry]

The piggyback vendors are better at marketing their products and offer at home installation which prior to COBB was not offered by any other flash tuner. Now that such a product is available just look at the for sale section in this forum. I was considering a used piggyback, call it brand X to avoid the trolls, and was shocked to see how low its resale value had fallen after the COBB release. Also was shocked to hear about the constant updates, problems people have, always something that has to be fixed in the next update, and so forth. Really pathetic for a 4 year matured product in my opinion. I digress, the flash tuning is just getting started on this platform and will take hold like it has on every other platform. Piggyback vendors stand to lose a lot of money on this transition so will fight it tooth and nail with "awesome new updates" and scare tactics to keep afloat until they find another platform not offering flash tuning yet.

[Slidewayz]

How do the flash tunes accommodate, meth, nitrous, and turbo upgrades that exceed the stock airflow sensor capabilities?

If they don't, then that's why there's still a market for the piggies.

[BMWnation]

+100 buy, buy pig 

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

How do the flash tunes accommodate, meth, nitrous, and turbo upgrades that exceed the stock airflow sensor capabilities?

If they don't, then that's why there's still a market for the piggies.

Fair point about meth injection. It's not something I know a lot about because I personally have never considered using it.

For the rest? Dyno tune using the ap and a protuner like all other platforms.

Other platforms have evolved using the flash tunes for upgraded turbo etc far beyond the scope of what anyone is doing here

[TLO03]

But there seem to be plenty subie guys that are flashed running meth, more fuel bigger turbos.. They make it work.. My guess is the canbus ..

[COBB Tuning]

Originally Posted by Slidewayz

How do the flash tunes accommodate, meth, nitrous, and turbo upgrades that exceed the stock airflow sensor capabilities?

Could you elaborate a bit on the airflow sensor you mention here? Hoping to better understand where the perceived gaps in functionality between piggyback and reflash lie.

[Alchem]

Originally Posted by Al Blue4.6l

the excuse used to be that BMW's DME was incredibly complex and required very long flashes...but that clearly is not true.

Actually that is very true. BMW's ECUs are encrypted and they switch around the chips to make to so one blanket tune wont work on all n54 ECUs. Thus why Cobb asks you to upload your ECU software because there are so many different versions out there its a headache.

[Bodie217]

I might just be talking out of my ass, but here's why piggyback has a place:

For those running either non-stock Forced induction, meth, nitrous, fuel system, etc, the stock ECU doesn't have the parameters to monitor say the meth flow (or if they can, it's news to me)
By having a piggyback tune, you're augmenting the stock ECU so that functions like meth flow control, wastegate actuator, can be processed with the stock ECU functions like timing, spark plugs, etc.

When you're just messing with OEM boost and A/F ratios, timing, fuel, then a flash is great on a bolt-ons car.

[BrianMN]

A couple things I like/prefer the piggyback over the flash. And to be fair, the PROcede for our car is not in any way like the piggybacks found on Subaru/mistu/mazda/etc. It's way more involved, highly intelligent and actually controls everything, not simply a resistor tune. (JB3)

LOGIC--The flash is (to my knowledge) only able to re-write tables on OEM DME. Thus, it must follow/behave by OEM logic. For example, cold weather = low boost, hot weather=high boost. This is where the flash is lacking the ability to actually tell the car what WE want it to do. The PROcede is able to bring boost/ign up when conditions are good, and conversely bring them down when conditions are poor. Also, the procede is able to add in any custom functions or behaviors that one might want to incorporate, such as traction assist, boost by gear, adjustable upshift softening, the list goes on and on... That is a HUGE advantage for the Procede.

Autotuning: Although the flash is able to give high performance and give ultimately a good tune, in my opinion it is not effective unless it is custom tuned by the end user. The "Off the shelf" maps are OK, but cannot accomodate for differences in conditions, octane, wastegate stiffness, mechanical variances, etc. etc. etc. Obviously when a flash company has been working on that engine for many years and has taken into account thousands of users' inputs and logs, then they are able to create better OTS maps. The N54 is nowhere near that yet. Hint: Cobb and the boost overshoot/TB closure. I don't care if it is how it's "designed to run", I simply want to hit the boost target the first time and not have to correct itself with the throtle blade. The PROcede and it's Autotuning feature, however is able to adapt to each and every individual car. This is a HUGE advantage for the PROcede. Even if a tune is user-adjustable, I'd venture to say only 25% of people will even do real testing and attempt to tune their engines, as the OTS maps will suffice for them.

To sum up, if one is able to custom tune their car with a flash, that's great. However, the added and WANTED logic that the Procede adds is very valuable. The Autotuning is another huge benefit that comes with the extra computing power and logic within the PRocede.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

And to be fair, the PROcede for our car is not in any way like the piggybacks found on Subaru/mistu/mazda/etc. It's way more involved, highly intelligent and actually controls everything, not simply a resistor tune. (JB3)

It's *a lot* like the piggybacks found on Subaru/mistu/mazda/etc. i.e. http://www.tuner-deals.com/-p-7.html The Procede is rebranded Haltech piggyback hardware. Vishnu has the BMW turbo exclusive, and apparently the software/firmware is jointly developed. Of course the value is in the software - not sure if 'autotune' is exclusive to Procede.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Vishnu has the BMW turbo exclusive, and apparently the software/firmware is jointly developed.

Please don't post stuff like this when you simply don't know the facts.

[COBB Tuning]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Hint: Cobb and the boost overshoot/TB closure. I don't care if it is how it's "designed to run", I simply want to hit the boost target the first time and not have to correct itself with the throtle blade.

I understand this line of thinking but it's also based on fear of the unknown. Should we put carburetors back on street cars, since they are non-electrical and will simply do whatever the tuner desires "the first time"? Of course not...technology marches on!

Using the throttle blade as a means of regulating torque and boost is the same principle. Why weren't OEMs and tuners doing it 10 years ago? Simple - throttle bodies were still actuated with a simple throttle cable. Now that the functionality is available to us, thanks to huge improvements to modern DBW implementations, we're more than happy to have another tool in the toolset as EMS's continue to evolve

Originally Posted by zenmaster

It's *a lot* like the piggybacks found on Subaru/mistu/mazda/etc. i.e. http://www.tuner-deals.com/-p-7.html The Procede is rebranded Haltech piggyback hardware. Vishnu has the BMW turbo exclusive, and apparently the software/firmware is jointly developed.

You guys should look up a product called the "Xede". It was purportedly the bee's knees before reflash-based tuning took over the entire market for Subaru/Mitsu/etc.


Interesting conversation. Keep up the healthy debate guys!

Regards,
Lance

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Please don't post stuff like this when you simply don't know the facts.

I thought Adrian was doing a lot of the firmware? He's not affiliated with Haltech?

[smokinbarry]

Originally Posted by BrianMN

A couple things I like/prefer the piggyback over the flash. And to be fair, the PROcede for our car is not in any way like the piggybacks found on Subaru/mistu/mazda/etc. It's way more involved, highly intelligent and actually controls everything, not simply a resistor tune. (JB3)

LOGIC--The flash is (to my knowledge) only able to re-write tables on OEM DME. Thus, it must follow/behave by OEM logic. For example, cold weather = low boost, hot weather=high boost. This is where the flash is lacking the ability to actually tell the car what WE want it to do. The PROcede is able to bring boost/ign up when conditions are good, and conversely bring them down when conditions are poor. Also, the procede is able to add in any custom functions or behaviors that one might want to incorporate, such as traction assist, boost by gear, adjustable upshift softening, the list goes on and on... That is a HUGE advantage for the Procede.

Autotuning: Although the flash is able to give high performance and give ultimately a good tune, in my opinion it is not effective unless it is custom tuned by the end user. The "Off the shelf" maps are OK, but cannot accomodate for differences in conditions, octane, wastegate stiffness, mechanical variances, etc. etc. etc. Obviously when a flash company has been working on that engine for many years and has taken into account thousands of users' inputs and logs, then they are able to create better OTS maps. The N54 is nowhere near that yet. Hint: Cobb and the boost overshoot/TB closure. I don't care if it is how it's "designed to run", I simply want to hit the boost target the first time and not have to correct itself with the throtle blade. The PROcede and it's Autotuning feature, however is able to adapt to each and every individual car. This is a HUGE advantage for the PROcede. Even if a tune is user-adjustable, I'd venture to say only 25% of people will even do real testing and attempt to tune their engines, as the OTS maps will suffice for them.

To sum up, if one is able to custom tune their car with a flash, that's great. However, the added and WANTED logic that the Procede adds is very valuable. The autotuning is another huge benefit that comes with the extra computing power and logic within the PRocede.

I appreciate your post but have a couple points of discussion.

First, not to pick on your piggyback tuner in general, so I'll leave their name out of this, but vendors who sell piggybacks here also sell the same piggybacks for other platforms. They have done this over the years until those platforms abandoned those piggybacks in favor of flash tunes. The features you mention such as meth integration, gear boost, and similar have all been offered on those platforms and all eventually been abandoned.

Second, if you read the posts from COBB and other flash tuners they explain the DME includes autotuning from the factory by targeting timing curves, air/fuel targets, and torque targets based on conditions. Negating the need for secondary autotuning being done by the external piggyback system. The piggyback autotuning is only to correct problems the piggyback tuning itself is creating.

Finally, while the debate is spirited on boost control and throttle closure COBB's explanation is plausible and they have shown that they can also achieve zero throttle closure if this is in fact an objective.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

I thought Adrian was doing a lot of the firmware? He's not affiliated with Haltech?

Someone's been reading too many gossip threads on the other site.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Full disclosure

-I had procede v5 on my car for one week and liked the way it performed. I did not like the fact that it was physically installed and the fact that if i were stranded i would be forced to remove it on the side of the road in the event of a hpfp failure.

-I now own a cobb tune, which i feel is similarly excellent and like the installation process better. I also am looking forward to getting dyno tuned.

THAT BEING SAID

Why is BMW different? As far as I know, NO other platform uses piggy back tuning devices. Mazdaspeed, subaru, mitsu, audi, chevy ALL use ECU flash devices. In fact, vishnu's procede piggybacks are non existant in the subaru and mitsu world although they are still apparently sold. Tunes such as Cobb and other OS tuning and other companies have taken over using flash tunes with great success. In fact, there is no debate whatsoever that flash tunes are the way to go on those platforms.

What makes tuning BMW's different? Why is this the only platform that uses piggy backs? Why would a flash work on every other car brand, but not this car? Specifically spell out for me why they failed on subie/mitsu, and why they are the answer here and flash tuning isnt? What is different?

No marketing tactics, no BS, just answers please.


EDIT: AND if the answer is that BMW somehow has more sophisticated "encryption" than those other brands, which i find to be BS as other cars are known to be tuner bait more than BMW, provide specific hard evidence that this is the case, not theory please.

I'll hang up and listen.

We have only offered the Procede for n54/n55 applications. It has never been offered for Subaru/Evo applications. That said, I think there are many reasons why you are seeing what you are seeing. I'll name a few.

1) Piggybacks in other markets have never been as sophisticated as the Procede. Primarily, they have always been limited by the number of input channels. The Procede has no such limitations since it gets most of it's sensor data from the CAN network. The more useful inputs channels, the better the control of the engine. I don't know of any other piggyback that did this prior to the Procede. The piggybacks that both Cobb Tuning and I used in the past (long time ago) did little more than (barely) offset CPS signals and attenuate MAF and MAP voltages as a function of RPM and Load.

2) Because of how they are implemented, Piggybacks can't do a few things, such as properly scaling for upgraded fuel injectors or raise rev limiters. With the n54, there is no need to upgrade fuel injectors since the DI fuel injection system has over 200hp worth of extra capacity. Other tuning platforms aren't so lucky. And since no one is building engines with upgraded internals and giant single turbos, there hasn't been a need to run rev limits higher than 7000rpm. And even that is higher than necessary given the power curve with this engine. So these limitations aren't very limiting in this market.

3) Usually, traditional piggybacks can only implement an offset to fuel, load and ignition values. Which is fine unless the DME gets updated with new calibration data during dealership visits. Which is often the case. However, with the Procede, actual lambda, DME load and ignition advance values are measured and accounted for in absolute terms, not in offsets. So the only variance between cars will come from variances between sensors calibrations-- which all tuning methods will be subject to. It also helps that the BMW had s closed loop fuel control system which is self-corrective to a very wide range. This is why you can "get away" with even the most crude form of engine controls and not be offended. And when it's done right, it feels as good as it could possibly be.

4) In a few other markets, flash tuning is very well developed. This is usually the case with Japanese car manufacturers who don't go as far as the Germans do when it comes to hiding how the DME works and were map locations are. It also helps that some markets enjoy open source ROM editing systems that cost a whopping $80 to purchase and a couple email conversions to get a good starting map. Throw a few hundred clever programmers who do this for fun (and not to make money) and you get a lot of ongoing development which is the case with the Evo/Subaru market. And you get native methanol injection control with failsafes, realtime mapswitching, external MAP sensor conversions, anti-lag, adjusable 2 steps, traction control mapping, nitrous control, etc,. By comparison, current n54 flashes can't even control boost properly over a normal range of hardware variance. Nor does it seem that they been able to properly isolate basic PID control logic. And it was only until recently were they even able to run more than 14psi. So it's a very different world. The world does evolve. But only over time.

5) Flash times on Evo/Subaru DMEs are less than 1 minute to read. And even shorter to write. And virtually impossible to brick. It also helps that each model year only has a few different ROM version. Not the countless updates/fixes that BMW has released for the n54. The whole process in the BMW requires around 30-40 minutes and requires (at least according to BMW) a 60 amp charger that normal people just don't have access too. No flashing process is without risk. The longer it takes, the longer the exposure to risk. Similarly, the risk in installing the Procede is dropped screws or broken tabs if not done with a reasonable amount of care. There is no risk of damaging the DME or rendering it inoperable.

6) BMW implemented an on-board data acquisition (FASTA) system that no one fully understands outside of the engineers on the other side of the ISTA network that your car hooks up to at the dealership. Besides them, no one will tell you where all this historical operational data resides. What this means is that claims of true diagnostic invisibility cannot be made when it comes to flashes. The only way to achieve invisibility is to actually shield the actual engine values from being seen by the DME. And only piggybacks can do this. Piggybacks, instead, are more subject to mechanically implemented roadblocks. Like tamper sealing the DME box. Or using connectors that can't be sourced through Tyco, AMP, etc,. But even then, getting around things are rarely impossible. But rather inconvenient.

7) Piggybacks can implement additional features that yield measurable improvements in performance and drivability. While reflashes, unless very well developed (which isn't the norm) are often limited to editing values within maps of fixed functionality. The Procede, on the other hand, has implemented:
-Wastegate compensation to reduce lag/overshoot.
-Autotuning to keep the car running safety and strong in various conditions and fuel qualities.
-Progressive Methanol mapping for safe use with methanol
-In-dash gauge functions (boost, afr, ign adv, IAT) and displays (map#, meth flow, etc,.)
-Built-in diagnostic functionality for not only reading/clear codes but also individual adaptation resets.
-Realtime map-switching
-Launch mode
-Timing based traction control

Some of the features (methanol mapping, launch and traction control) above will have no benefits to many users. So what it all boils down to is how well the car drives with each tuning solution. I'd confidently put our Procede against any tuning system available for the n54. I believe it will drive better and faster. Either running off the shelf maps or custom mapped. At the end of the day, this is where the rubber hits the road so to speak.

Shiv

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by atlharry

Someone's been reading too many gossip threads on the other site.

OK, what I was trying to point out was not that it was "Haltech", specifically, but another company that also apparently builds/licenses the hardware design (presumably, also in Australia.) Haltech happens to re-sell it too. And that the same platform is available for all of those cars.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

OK, what I was trying to point out was not that it was "Haltech", specifically, but another company that also apparently builds/licenses the hardware design (presumably, also in Australia. And that the same platform is available for all of those cars.

Please stop. You are spreading misinformation. Please don't derail this thread. If you feel it's necessary, start another thread.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by smokinbarry

Second, if you read the posts from COBB and other flash tuners they explain the DME includes autotuning from the factory by targeting timing curves, air/fuel targets, and torque targets based on conditions. Negating the need for secondary autotuning being done by the external piggyback system. The piggyback autotuning is only to correct problems the piggyback tuning itself is creating.

I don't think you can use the DME "autotuning" term interchangeably with the piggy's autotuning. They are different. One uses load targets, the other does not.... making them inherently different.

The bolded statement is just wrong. period.

Don't get me wrong. For my goals, the COBB flash fits my needs perfectly (pending some elaboration in another thread/and N55 support). However, I still have respect for what the Procede has done for this platform.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Please stop. You are spreading misinformation. Please don't derail this thread. If you feel it's necessary, start another thread.

Sorry, was addressing OP, and other's question:
"Why is BMW different? As far as I know, NO other platform uses piggy back tuning devices. Mazdaspeed, subaru, mitsu, audi, chevy ALL use ECU flash devices. "

I realize the focus of the thread has changed now with the vendor's need to explain.