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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Mike/Terry, can you please join this discussion?



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      02-20-2011, 11:52 PM   #1
Clap135
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Mike/Terry, can you please join this discussion?




That is a bone stock car. How come the ecu did such a shitty job with the timing curve? If the ecu can't even support a stock boost car in those conditions what makes you think it could do anything with more boost?

Here is a little quote from Terry himself

Originally Posted by Terry335
Hi gang, I'm pretty sharp when it comes to tuning but somewhat of a n00b with regard to electrical engineering. I could use an experts help.

Terry Tuner v1.0 has control of boost, but now I need to retard timing. My first idea was just to use a simple op-amp, relay, and resistor to crank up the IAT temperature when boost is over 8psi. This works, but has limitations and side effects. Mainly, it doesn't pull enough timing for our needs.

So, I'm working on a more advanced concept. Offsetting the CPS signal.

From May 2007: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63939

And in the same thread, May 2007:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry335
Bad idea to put timing in, we need to take it out to avoid knock under the higher boost level!

Last edited by Clap135; 02-27-2011 at 09:20 PM.
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      02-20-2011, 11:56 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemanse92 View Post
timing is all over the place...is this on a jb4?
no, thats a bone stock car, that relies on the stock ecu to fix everything. The sad part is imagine if there was a jb4 on that which adds boost and relies on the same stock ecu to fix everyting....
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      02-20-2011, 11:59 PM   #3
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subscribed. very interesting.
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      02-21-2011, 12:01 AM   #4
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wow good job clap!
btw I pm'd u something
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      02-21-2011, 12:04 AM   #5
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These arn't my logs guys, these were provided by Joshbody. I just thought they were a perfect example to exploit the bullshit fed to the community
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      02-21-2011, 12:13 AM   #6
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A jb4 wont do shit with timing as it can't control it at all. It relies on the stock ecu to fix it, and from the above example, the stock ecu is not really fixing it on a stock car let alone a tuned car.
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      02-21-2011, 12:20 AM   #7
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both the GIAC and Cobb flash tunes have rewritten ignition curves that suit the load targets. IMO, the Cobb flash has an overly conservative ignition curve (2 degrees down low, ramping to 10 degrees) however this is no different from any other Cobb OTS map from previous platforms. I have not seen any good GIAC stage 2 logs to comment on theirs.

The Procede uses CPS offsetting (crankshaft position sensor) to reduce the targeted curve by a number of degrees.
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      02-21-2011, 12:20 AM   #8
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Here is a log of my Cobb car


Cobb rewrites a lower timing curve into the car so it will not try to constantly climb and knock to the curve intended for a stock car

Giac does the same

Procede, offsets the timing curve and lowers it. Similar result to Giac/cobb, just done different.
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      02-21-2011, 12:20 AM   #9
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One of the arguments from some is that that some of the drops is vanos related. there is a decrease in timing due to vanos shift, but its gradual of about 2 to 3deg over 1000rpms or so. So none of the above sudden drops is due to vanos. i just wanted to clarify this early.
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      02-21-2011, 12:24 AM   #10
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So is it knocking? Cobb would probably argue otherwise
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      02-21-2011, 12:24 AM   #11
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Note about Cobb. These logs are during the winter when your hitting load targets with lower boost. Cobb will knock in the summer heat! All flashes will knock without Meth or super conservative table.

I really believe the procede has the best ignition timing currently when autotuning is enabled.
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      02-21-2011, 12:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysandro View Post
So is it knocking? Cobb would probably argue otherwise
I don't see any knock in the log Clap posted....
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      02-21-2011, 12:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysandro View Post
So is it knocking? Cobb would probably argue otherwise
No offense, to cobb, but they are simply wrong when it comes to timing drop outs...yes the logs in the first post are of a stock car knocking over and over and over and over again. Picture adding more boost to that and you do certainly ruin that engine.
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      02-21-2011, 12:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135
That is a bone stock car. How come the ecu did such a shitty job with the timing curve? If the ecu can't even support a stock boost car in those conditions what makes you think it could do anything with more boost?
I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. That the DME knocks on a stock tune? If those dips were really knock then wouldn't BMWs logic trigger a limp mode and shut the show down mid run? If you want Terry's opinion ask him but my opinion which I've said all along those dips do not constitute knock in the traditional sense.

As far as what will happen tuned under worst case conditions such as shown here, 105 degree weather on 91 octane, the JB4 map5 will target close to stock boost levels with a much richer than stock air/fuel ratio. Which is exactly what one would want it to do.

As I said in another thread I don't have a lot of hot weather logs to share but I did see this log from a PR customer helping capture bog data. He's on 93 octane and ambient temps were in the 90s. Timing is smooth as it should be. If there were to be a dip, and he were to be running the autotuniung map, then the tune would adjust itself to avoid it next run.

Mike
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      02-21-2011, 12:27 AM   #15
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It would appear relying on the ECU to adjust timing even though boost is increased is rather unusual in the tuning world.

Clap: Do any other tunes take the JB approach?
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      02-21-2011, 12:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Note about Cobb. These logs are during the winter when your hitting load targets with lower boost. Cobb will knock in the summer heat! All flashes will knock without Meth or super conservative table.

I really believe the procede has the best ignition timing currently when autotuning is enabled.
The procede will knock in the later gears too, thats where the custom tuning comes in. This isnt a tuner thread though. This is more of a Mike saying somethign that isnt true thread. So if we can, lets please leave the procede/giac/cobb/oe/whatever except the juicebox out of this. As all of those have some form of timing control.
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      02-21-2011, 12:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. That the DME knocks on a stock tune? If those dips were really knock then wouldn't BMWs logic trigger a limp mode and shut the show down mid run? If you want Terry's opinion ask him but my opinion which I've said all along those dips do not constitute knock in the traditional sense.

As far as what will happen tuned under worst case conditions such as shown here, 105 degree weather on 91 octane, the JB4 map5 will target close to stock boost levels with a much richer than stock air/fuel ratio. Which is exactly what one would want it to do.

As I said in another thread I don't have a lot of hot weather logs to share but I did see this log from a PR customer helping capture bog data. He's on 93 octane and ambient temps were in the 90s. Timing is smooth as it should be. If there were to be a dip, and he were to be running the autotuniung map, then the tune would adjust itself to avoid it next run.

Mike
Ambiant int he 90s with IATs barely over 100 degree through a couple gears....go sell bs somewhere else, either that or let me know what front mount he is running cause thats not possible.
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      02-21-2011, 12:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
No offense, to cobb, but they are simply wrong when it comes to timing drop outs...yes the logs in the first post are of a stock car knocking over and over and over and over again. Picture adding more boost to that and you do certainly ruin that engine.
I'll have to side with Cobb on this one
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      02-21-2011, 12:34 AM   #19
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Why didnt the stock ecu smooth the timing curve in the first post? It knocked for over a months time according to the dates.
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      02-21-2011, 12:35 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
The procede will knock in the later gears too, thats where the custom tuning comes in. This isnt a tuner thread though. This is more of a Mike saying somethign that isnt true thread. So if we can, lets please leave the procede/giac/cobb/oe/whatever except the juicebox out of this. As all of those have some form of timing control.
Again, I have never seen many JB logs. I have many many logs, stock and tuned. I tried to database many logs under different conditions when stock, so i would understand my tuned logs. It just gives me piece of mind of what's going on. I'm sure there's some JB users that have many log files. You used to run JB... did you ever log with BT back then?
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      02-21-2011, 12:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Again, I have never seen many JB logs. I have many many logs, stock and tuned. I tried to database many logs under different conditions when stock, so i would understand my tuned logs. It just gives me piece of mind of what's going on. I'm sure there's some JB users that have many log files. You used to run JB... did you ever log with BT back then?
I never ran on that thing without meth for the sole reason that I didn't want my car to knock.....

My procede logs are all under meth as well. The latest v5 stuff i tested for shiv had autotuning off and his 411whp map dropped timing on my car on extended pulls...meth was off

cobb and the standback are the only tunes that I ran without meth.
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      02-21-2011, 12:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clap135 View Post
Why didnt the stock ecu smooth the timing curve in the first post? It knocked for over a months time according to the dates.
Asked and answered. IMHO those dips are not knock in the traditional sense. Beyond that you'll have to ask BMW.

Mike
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