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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N55 Turbo Engine Tuning and Exhaust Modifications - 335i Tuning > N55 Motor is it Forged like its N54 brother?



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      09-23-2011, 08:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
I work for BMW. I spoke with multiple engineers about this subject on my many visits to BMW of North America, face to face. They assured me, the pistons and rods are NOT forged and they NEVER were forged. Also not one bit of any of my training manuals for N54 nor N55 state the Pistons or Rods are forged. Yes you should take my word for it. Would you rather take the word of some guy on the "internetz" that heard it from someone else, that read it somewhere else on the internet? Or would you rather take it from someone in the field that deals with these cars day in and day out? I would love to see the proof of the people that opened the motor up and found forged internals. Do you have a link with pics? Or did you just read it in a post? Every disassembled N54 and N55 I have see apart had steel rods and hyperutectic pistons. I have disassembled N54s and N55s and never once have seen it with forged parts aside from the crank. Plus I know the difference between a stamped steel part, and a forged part. I have built a "few" 800+ HP cars, I know a thing or 2 about internals. If you do not want to believe me that is fine, it doesnt hurt me at all. I am just telling you what I have seen in the field and what I was told multiple times by multiple engineers for BMW
E90POST Moderator "E90Fan" took apart his early N54 engine for a complete rebuild and upgrade.

In post #130, he verified that the OEM pistons in his N54 were forged.
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      09-23-2011, 08:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
E90POST Moderator "E90Fan" took apart his early N54 engine for a complete rebuild and upgrade.

In post #130, he verified that the OEM pistons in his N54 were forged.

All he said was "Yes, OEM pistons are forged, and made by Mahle" How did he determine they are forged? So going by this mans word that he said "yes" means that he is correct?
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      09-23-2011, 08:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
All he said was "Yes, OEM pistons are forged, and made by Mahle" How did he determine they are forged? So going by this mans word that he said "yes" means that he is correct?
Well your kinda asking us to go by ur word that they arent..Obviously not taking anything away from u ...since u state u work for BMW and have assembled these engines

So am I better off just flipping a coin?..honestly there has been numerous threads and feedback stating the early n54 r forged..so I really dont know what to believe
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      09-23-2011, 08:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tibra1 View Post
Well your kinda asking us to go by ur word that they arent..Obviously not taking anything away from u ...since u state u work for BMW and have assembled these engines

So am I better off just flipping a coin?..honestly there has been numerous threads and feedback stating the early n54 r forged..so I really dont know what to believe
The piston pictured in the link that was supplied above is not a forged piston. You can clearly see that it is not. I do not know who told him that it is forged, but he is wrong.

You dont have to take my word. Im just clearing misinformation, since there is ALOT of it on this board. Like I said, Im in the field, I may know a thing or 2. If you do not want to believe me that is fine.
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      09-23-2011, 09:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiced46 View Post
The piston pictured in the link that was supplied above is not a forged piston. You can clearly see that it is not. I do not know who told him that it is forged, but he is wrong.
Please elaborate on how you came to that conclusion based on those pictures... Do you see the cast lines or something? I've seen forged pistons from a camaro that look exactly like that in terms of surface appearance. Of course I don't know anything without actually holding them in my hands.
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      09-23-2011, 09:45 PM   #28
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N54 has a forged crank. There were pictures of this posted next to the N55 cast item - you could easily see the difference.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9766298
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      09-24-2011, 12:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alext View Post
N54 has a forged crank. There were pictures of this posted next to the N55 cast item - you could easily see the difference.

http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9766298
A forged crank in a straight six motor that is naturally balanced means next to nothing. This will be the absolutely last thing to break, the rods and pistons are key.

Personally, I have a a very early build N54 (12/06) and I find it very hard to believe that some of the internals are forged. First of, we have never had definitive evidence of this other than someone here and there saying so. Second, why would BMW build a motor with forged internals without ever stating so in any press release or design graph. It seems like that would make them look very good in terms of PR and in the engineering of this motor. Third, forged internals are very very expensive when compared to cast counterparts, a BMW may be expensive but the company is still a mass producer and when it comes down to the bottom line putting in forged internals if they knew the cast irons were fine, just doesn't make any sense.

With that being said, until someone from BMW or a BMW certified mechanic holds one of these pistons in their hands and shows to everyone and can definitively state they are forged and were forged for some reason on the N54, I will not believe it. In the year 2006, when the first N54 was made, the days of over engineering engines (i.e. Supra / EVO) were done.

One other thing the 1M which came out this year and produces more power stock than any stock released N54 and is their highest performing N54 would have cast pistons as compared to basic 335s in 2006? Also having a forged crank (especially in a straight six) and not pistons?

Sorry but none of this adds up.
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      09-24-2011, 04:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samchoi604 View Post
E90POST Moderator "E90Fan" took apart his early N54 engine for a complete rebuild and upgrade.

In post #130, he verified that the OEM pistons in his N54 were forged.

From what I remember Tony (e92fan) was the one who had CP Pistons develop a product for the n54. Sole reason being, the original weren't forged
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      07-15-2015, 05:43 PM   #31
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I came across this old thread. So technically, a n55 can handle as much boost as a n54?
It is apples to apples yes?
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      07-16-2015, 06:48 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Dub View Post
I came across this old thread. So technically, a n55 can handle as much boost as a n54?
It is apples to apples yes?
Doubt anyone can confirm that. But there are a few N55s around 600whp that are having no problem with it.
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      07-16-2015, 05:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Dub View Post
I came across this old thread. So technically, a n55 can handle as much boost as a n54?
It is apples to apples yes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by weehe126 View Post
Doubt anyone can confirm that. But there are a few N55s around 600whp that are having no problem with it.
Well, logically one can surmise that an N55 should be able to do so easily. It's simply a matter of time to truly find out.

The N55 is a much newer engine compared to the N54, thus meaning less time for tuning extremes and quite possibly less N55 equipped E9X's--especially amongst the tuning world.

I will say this though, the information in this thread is certainly welcomed. I have no doubt that in time, N55's will be able to push the envelope just as the N54 is currently doing.

More support and interest in the N55 will come soon enough.
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      07-16-2015, 06:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKL View Post
I'm well aware of the difference between a forged wheel and a cast wheel, but I am inclined to say, who cares whether the engine is forged?

People care about forged wheels because wheels get major abuse.
Forged cranks are lighter weight and stronger Better for high rpm and power. Less rotating mass BMW probably included them in the n54 as it was their first production high performance turbo so they were doing a little overkill They eliminated them in n55 probably because they determined they were unnecessary for stock power output and cheaper. I haven't heard of either failing in either motor regardless of the power these engines are making but I'd still much rather have forged.
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      07-16-2015, 06:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Dub View Post
I came across this old thread. So technically, a n55 can handle as much boost as a n54?
It is apples to apples yes?
Not with the crank but I don't know if we will ever hit the cast crank hp limit. The forged is bulletproof. Other stuff will fail first. Probably valves or pistons. They're still cast in N54.
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      07-17-2015, 12:13 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Forged cranks are lighter weight and stronger Better for high rpm and power. Less rotating mass BMW probably included them in the n54 as it was their first production high performance turbo so they were doing a little overkill They eliminated them in n55 probably because they determined they were unnecessary for stock power output and cheaper. I haven't heard of either failing in either motor regardless of the power these engines are making but I'd still much rather have forged.
Maybe I misread, but from my understanding of the other threads listed, the forged crank in the N54 is actually heavier than the cast crank in the N55.

Obviously the N54 crank is capable of handling more power however. In truth though, are we really going to push either platform to such an extreme?
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      07-17-2015, 06:46 AM   #37
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Forged is always lighter than cast. And yes u plan on pushing it to the extreme. The n55 doesn't have the setups yet to push those motors there yet so we'll see how it holds up when it gets there.
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      07-17-2015, 01:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Forged is always lighter than cast. And yes u plan on pushing it to the extreme. The n55 doesn't have the setups yet to push those motors there yet so we'll see how it holds up when it gets there.
Not true.
it depends on a lot of factors and for something the same size, a forged part will be heavier. Unless you lighten a forged part (reliefs, cutouts, etc) of the same dimensions the forged part will always be heavier.
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      07-17-2015, 02:07 PM   #39
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Realistically, does it matter if either one is forged or not. In most applications, it is probably doubtful that the capabilities of either lower end will be tested on the street. If someone wants > 600 at the wheels they most likely will have such a budget that they would be using boutique lower end internals anyhow. And drive the thing to the track on the back of a trailer. For the rest of us, transmissions and rear end infrastructure will probably fail first. For my 6 mt, I'd be lucky to see it go past 480 without slipping.
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      07-17-2015, 02:08 PM   #40
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The N55/N54 do not have forged internals. This conversation came up at a party I was at. One guy was saying that the N54 is a better motor because it has forged internals and my buddy, who has been a mechanic most of his life, stated that the N54 is not forged. We know this guy really knows his shit so we left it at that.
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      07-18-2015, 02:12 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techwhiz View Post
Not true.
it depends on a lot of factors and for something the same size, a forged part will be heavier. Unless you lighten a forged part (reliefs, cutouts, etc) of the same dimensions the forged part will always be heavier.
My bad Forged material is heavier. But I am used to looking at the forged lightweight cranks for SBC motors. I guess it's the machining of excess material that makes them lighter weight than the forged ones.

Everywhere I look, people say rods and crank forged on N54 citing BMW lit, pics of the motor torn down, etc. The ones that say it's all cast typically say my friend who knows told me. Lol
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      07-18-2015, 01:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
The N55/N54 do not have forged internals. This conversation came up at a party I was at. One guy was saying that the N54 is a better motor because it has forged internals and my buddy, who has been a mechanic most of his life, stated that the N54 is not forged. We know this guy really knows his shit so we left it at that.
+1

I'm not really quite sure why this whole question of N54/N55 forged internals keeps coming up. I'm thinking it all stems from that one engine build hoax from a while back. At this point, it has have been verified multiple times that neither are forged.
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      07-19-2015, 01:41 AM   #43
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N54 and N55 engines are not forged nor cast iron. They are Hyperputectic.


You're welcome.
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      07-19-2015, 08:08 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Physics View Post
N54 and N55 engines are not forged nor cast iron. They are Hyperputectic.


You're welcome.
That just is a type of aluminum alloy They can still be cast or forged
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