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      08-06-2007, 12:34 PM   #1
jjlawyer
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335, 100f temps and road course do not mix

So I was at the streets this weekend and had plenty of fun. The first run the temp was maybe upper 80s and the car was fine. Oil temp got to 280 or so and I think I noticed some loss of power after a while in the back straight but the car never went into limp. That was in valet mode on the AA Xede.

Next run it was 92 and I switched on the Xede, which I wasn't planning on doing. But I wanted to follow these two guys with modified Minis I was talking to who seemed fast in the 1st run. It was like driving a different car and the lack of lsd was way more of an issue every time I was on the gas. I did one lap with the minis behind me. Then pulled to the right in the straight to let them pass but I didn't lift at all, I wanted to see if they could pass but I pulled on them really hard, I had to back off to let them in front. Anyway after following them for one lap, the car was pulling all the boost and had no power at all, not limp mode because the power would be back after 30 seconds or so. Nothing showed on any display.

That was less than two laps going full on, probably at about 1:18 a lap. So on a hot day, figure on 2 minutes of fun at full speed, and that was even after a one hour cool down between sessions.
Thatís with a piggy back.

I switched the Xede off for the rest of the day but the temps got up to about 100 and the car would loose all power after a few laps going all out. At 8/10s the car was fine. The funny thing is the car would loose the power in the same place on the course every time, during the longest sweeper before the back straight with the rumble strips. I thought it had something to do with the oil getting pushed to the side of the pan.

I will post some vids soon.
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      08-06-2007, 12:37 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjlawyer View Post
So I was at the streets this weekend and had plenty of fun. The first run the temp was maybe upper 80s and the car was fine. Oil temp got to 280 or so and I think I noticed some loss of power after a while in the back straight but the car never went into limp. That was in valet mode on the AA Xede.

Next run it was 92 and I switched on the Xede, which I wasn't planning on doing. But I wanted to follow these two guys with modified Minis I was talking to who seemed fast in the 1st run. It was like driving a different car and the lack of lsd was way more of an issue every time I was on the gas. I did one lap with the minis behind me. Then pulled to the right in the straight to let them pass but I didn't lift at all, I wanted to see if they could pass but I pulled on them really hard, I had to back off to let them in front. Anyway after following them for one lap, the car was pulling all the boost and had no power at all, not limp mode because the power would be back after 30 seconds or so. Nothing showed on any display.

That was less than two laps going full on, probably at about 1:18 a lap. So on a hot day, figure on 2 minutes of fun at full speed, and that was even after a one hour cool down between sessions.
Thatís with a piggy back.

I switched the Xede off for the rest of the day but the temps got up to about 100 and the car would loose all power after a few laps going all out. At 8/10s the car was fine. The funny thing is the car would loose the power in the same place on the course every time, during the longest sweeper before the back straight with the rumble strips. I thought it had something to do with the oil getting pushed to the side of the pan.

I will post some vids soon.
You sure you didnt get a bad case of heat soak to the system? I have taken many Audis S4s on track with turbos in the heat..you definitely feel the power going away since the intake temps rise.
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      08-06-2007, 12:46 PM   #3
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It wasn't heatsoak, this was no power, it was the computer. The car didn't have power to maintain 60 mph, or maybe it wasn't letting me over a certain rpm. And it was only for 30 seconds or so. Plus, the car was sitting for one hour with hood open then 2 laps and shut down. I dont think a front intercooler car will heatsoak much if its moving at 60 mph average.
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      08-06-2007, 12:52 PM   #4
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VIDEOS please !!!
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      08-06-2007, 01:26 PM   #5
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I definitely noticed my 6MT Procede petering out at high temperatures (95+). Looks like the problem exists even "stock".

My case, however, was more heat soak since I could go above 60mph, but lost about 10mph at the end of the long straight given the same exit speed out of the prior corner.

I know this will not help you while OUT on the track, but you may want to bring a water spray bottle (3+ gallons) and spray the oil cooler after each session. You can drop the oil temps 15-20 degrees within minutes. Something about letting the oil sit at 285+ degrees doesn't sit right with me.

We need a bigger oil cooler for HOT track sessions.
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      08-06-2007, 01:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjlawyer View Post
So I was at the streets this weekend and had plenty of fun. The first run the temp was maybe upper 80s and the car was fine. Oil temp got to 280 or so and I think I noticed some loss of power after a while in the back straight but the car never went into limp. That was in valet mode on the AA Xede.

Next run it was 92 and I switched on the Xede, which I wasn't planning on doing. But I wanted to follow these two guys with modified Minis I was talking to who seemed fast in the 1st run. It was like driving a different car and the lack of lsd was way more of an issue every time I was on the gas. I did one lap with the minis behind me. Then pulled to the right in the straight to let them pass but I didn't lift at all, I wanted to see if they could pass but I pulled on them really hard, I had to back off to let them in front. Anyway after following them for one lap, the car was pulling all the boost and had no power at all, not limp mode because the power would be back after 30 seconds or so. Nothing showed on any display.

That was less than two laps going full on, probably at about 1:18 a lap. So on a hot day, figure on 2 minutes of fun at full speed, and that was even after a one hour cool down between sessions.
That’s with a piggy back.

I switched the Xede off for the rest of the day but the temps got up to about 100 and the car would loose all power after a few laps going all out. At 8/10s the car was fine. The funny thing is the car would loose the power in the same place on the course every time, during the longest sweeper before the back straight with the rumble strips. I thought it had something to do with the oil getting pushed to the side of the pan.

I will post some vids soon.
Finally someone else other than the MT editor at The Streets who is experiencing the same thing. The outside air temp was 95 degrees during my runs. Like you, my car had total power loss at the same spot on the track (turn 9 on Big Willow) during every session and after about 10-13mins each time. Each time power went away my oil temp registered 285-290 degrees. Power was restored after about 20-30 seconds and I didn't get any sort of icon on my display - none that I noticed anyway. I also lifted my hood while the car sat and cooled between each session. But it was definintely Limp Home Mode in a big way.

As a side, last Friday I recorded my coolant temps on a canyon run near my house. I was driving hard but nothing like on track. After about 15mins in 82 degree heat I felt hesitation and inconsistent power delivery. After uploading the data to my laptop I saw my coolant got to about 235 degrees – so very near the total power loss level of 242. My oil temp was only 270 degrees. It seems my car definitely has issues.

Last edited by RMRC; 08-06-2007 at 01:44 PM..
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      08-06-2007, 02:16 PM   #7
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Finally someone else other than the MT editor at The Streets who is experiencing the same thing. The outside air temp was 95 degrees during my runs. Like you, my car had total power loss at the same spot on the track (turn 9 on Big Willow) during every session and after about 10-13mins each time. Each time power went away my oil temp registered 285-290 degrees. Power was restored after about 20-30 seconds and I didn't get any sort of icon on my display - none that I noticed anyway. I also lifted my hood while the car sat and cooled between each session. But it was definintely Limp Home Mode in a big way.

As a side, last Friday I recorded my coolant temps on a canyon run near my house. I was driving hard but nothing like on track. After about 15mins in 82 degree heat I felt hesitation and inconsistent power delivery. After uploading the data to my laptop I saw my coolant got to about 235 degrees Ė so very near the total power loss level of 242. My oil temp was only 270 degrees. It seems my car definitely has issues.

It must have something to do with long right turns. If it was really related only to heat, you would expect it to happen at the end of the straight.
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      08-06-2007, 02:44 PM   #8
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But don't forget BMW's own documentation states that engine power is cut at an oil temp of 304 degrees and a coolant temp of 242 degrees. Looking at my coolant temp graphs it's clear my car was hitting the coolant temp threshold and was cutting power as a result.
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      08-06-2007, 02:57 PM   #9
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jjlawyer - forgot to ask whether you're in a 6MT or Step?
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      08-06-2007, 04:32 PM   #10
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jjlawyer - forgot to ask whether you're in a 6MT or Step?
6mt
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      08-06-2007, 06:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjlawyer View Post
It must have something to do with long right turns.
I don't think this is the reason because I had no such issue in turn 2. I just think that the car gets cooled down on the front straight as the higher speed gets more air to the oil cooler and the radiator. Then it takes 1/2 - 3/4 of a lap to overheat again.

Last edited by RMRC; 08-06-2007 at 08:53 PM..
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      08-07-2007, 10:52 PM   #12
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This really concerns me. I left another car thinking this would be better and not have any track related issues. It appears that "everyone" who runs their car in "hot" weather at the track is having power failure due to some demon in the car. What is causing this? Three things are so far possible. Oil temps, coolant temps, or charge air temps. Given the shut off values by BMW, all these cars are shutting down before the given specs say to do so. Why can't we pin down the exact problem. Is there another sensor that reads piston block temps? Bank 5 and 6 are prone to more heat than the others. This problem needs to be solved. It will be interesting to see if the same people having these problems in the heat will also have them in the cold weather coming up. We will see.
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      08-08-2007, 10:57 AM   #13
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I was at Willow in normal weather and the car was fine. I was driving just as hard. I did have the heat on but he oil was not as hot as this time. I think if someone gets an aftermarket oil cooler, we will know a lot more. The get an intake air temp sensor and we will know more again.
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      08-08-2007, 11:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjlawyer View Post
I was at Willow in normal weather and the car was fine. I was driving just as hard. I did have the heat on but he oil was not as hot as this time. I think if someone gets an aftermarket oil cooler, we will know a lot more. The get an intake air temp sensor and we will know more again.
My Davis CarChip records air intake temp also. The highest I've seen in normal driving is 140 degrees. Unfortunately I don't have the intake temps from my day at Big Willow. I'm going to the Central CA chapter school at Buttonwillow Sept. 7 though and will record them there.

So do you guys think BMW is working on a fix for this? I'm of the opinion that BMWs should not overheat like this even in 100 degree heat. I don't think this expectation is unreasonable but others may have a different opinion. My car was the ONLY car out there shutting down. None of the 2002s, E30s, E36s, E46s, E60s, E90s, E92s, M3s, M5s, G35s, Civics, Evos, STIs or various Carreras overheated.
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      08-08-2007, 11:29 AM   #15
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I wonder if there's a problem with the oil pump fighting lateral G force to push the oil through the cooler
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      08-09-2007, 12:01 AM   #16
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I forgot the theory, but doesn't running the heater full blast lower the coolant temps, not the oil temps? Next one out on the track needs to play with the heater. Run a sessions without the heat and monitor shutdown times, than repeat with the heater on and see if the condition get better.
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      08-09-2007, 10:15 AM   #17
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I forgot the theory, but doesn't running the heater full blast lower the coolant temps, not the oil temps? Next one out on the track needs to play with the heater. Run a sessions without the heat and monitor shutdown times, than repeat with the heater on and see if the condition get better.
I played with the heater this time but I couldn't tell if it helped. You're probably right that it only effects coolant temp but it can't hurt.
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      08-10-2007, 04:17 PM   #18
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Might there have been something going on besides temperature? The car should not have gone into limp home at those temps.

Take your car to South Bay BMW and ask for Hiep to work on it. He is a club member and spends a lot of time at track events in race cars he builds.

When you installed your xede, did you do the boost solenoid modification?
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      08-12-2007, 11:04 AM   #19
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Might there have been something going on besides temperature? The car should not have gone into limp home at those temps.

Take your car to South Bay BMW and ask for Hiep to work on it. He is a club member and spends a lot of time at track events in race cars he builds.

When you installed your xede, did you do the boost solenoid modification?
yeah, boost solinoid bypass.
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      08-12-2007, 04:54 PM   #20
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I ran Road Atlanta yesterday and today. Weather.com says it was 97 there yesterday. Weather info at the track and my car said it reached 100. Oil temps never got over 250F.
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      08-12-2007, 05:11 PM   #21
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Any reduction in power? How long was each session? How many sessions in that one day? How hard were you driving/lap times?
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      08-12-2007, 07:36 PM   #22
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Any reduction in power? How long was each session? How many sessions in that one day? How hard were you driving/lap times?
I'd love to know this too. How is it that my (and jjlawyer's) oil temp got to 285-290 each session while it was between 90 and 95 and my car had a near total loss of power during every session after about 13mins? This seems to support the theory that not all cars are affected by the overheating problems. Yet I'm told "your car is functioning properly" by two separate dealers and BMW NA. I suppose Satch might be interested in this for the Letters section in Roundel.
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