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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Ceramic versus OEM Brake Pads



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      07-03-2013, 01:30 AM   #1
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Ceramic versus OEM Brake Pads

My daily driver is a 2007 328i E92 (coupe) with a manual. I run a 3 stage intake and ActivAutowerke tune, so I should have 330i like performance.

I live in the Pacific NorthWest so winter driving is done in near freezing temperatures and rain. Summers can be hot (it was 95*F yesterday).

My commute involves long stretches of 70mph and some stop and go. I do not track the car. The brakes are strictly for street use, with an emphasis on daily commuting.

I have just gone through a set of rear brakes (OEM) in 5000 miles (gotta remember to turn off that 'traction control' ). The fronts have gone more like 50,000. I use stock rotors.

I am wondering if I should go to ceramic brakes. I MUST have;
- No squealing
- No need to 'warm' the brakes to bring them to operating temperature (they will often be cold on a winter day when I most need them!)
- a little more mileage from a set of rear brakes

Should I stay with OEM pads, or go to ceramic? If I go to ceramic, will I have issues with the brakes needing to warm up (especially in winter) or with squealing?
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      07-03-2013, 04:04 AM   #2
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5000 on a set of rears is just wrong.

Ceramic will work, winter pedal feel is just a bit different for the very first application, gets back to normal thereafter. No squealing, no dust.
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      07-03-2013, 06:03 AM   #3
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If you want all those oem features like the initial bite ,just go oem.
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      07-03-2013, 08:29 AM   #4
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Agreed, just go OEM, they are the most street-friendly pads out there.
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      07-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #5
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I thought I read somewhere that newwer OEM E9x brake (lci maybe?) pads went to a ceramic compund because owners were complaining about the dust...any truth to that?
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      07-03-2013, 09:24 PM   #6
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Just keep in mind braking is friction. Ceramic is harder than the rotors so the rotors will wear faster. Stay with OEM.

FYI...we use ceramic (Al2O3) to grind metal in some of the industries we service. It works very well and yes, there is very little brake dust with ceramic but it also depends on the type of filler they use for the pads (composite).
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      07-03-2013, 11:41 PM   #7
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I was on the same type of search as you are. I end up with Hawk HPS (semi metallic). Time will tell if this approach will pay.
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      07-04-2013, 01:32 AM   #8
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the rear pads on my 335i have lasted > 50,000km
front pads = 7-80,000km
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      07-04-2013, 01:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken1137 View Post
Ceramic is harder than the rotors so the rotors will wear faster.
False. There is no way ceramic pads are harder on rotors than semi-metallic, etc. type compounds.
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      07-04-2013, 01:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
False. There is no way ceramic pads are harder on rotors than semi-metallic, etc. type compounds.
FYI...I work w/ceramic and metals. Do some homework.
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      07-04-2013, 02:21 PM   #11
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How exactly does that translate to automotive braking experience? I work with computers and data tables every day, but that doesn't mean I can run around these forums claiming I'm a tuning expert.
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      07-04-2013, 05:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
How exactly does that translate to automotive braking experience? I work with computers and data tables every day, but that doesn't mean I can run around these forums claiming I'm a tuning expert.
Sorry OP but I have to respond. I work for a chemical company that produces 100MTs of Al2O3 just to name one product. We provide this raw material to companies that produce metal composites and ceramic composites in addition to a number of industrial applications including wet/dry sandpaper used for polishing clear coats, and semiconductor applications to polish metal layers at 5000A thickness. It is science. That being said, I know there are some brake pad companies that claim or call their pads ceramic when they just mix in clay with metal. Thus, their pads dont wear the rotors at a higher rate. However, there are a number of constituents within a brake pad and thousands of products within these main constituents that are used in the market. Thus, justification is difficult. Basic fact is ceramic (Al2O3 raw material) is harder based on the mohs scale, or any other, versus metal. Use ceramic pads if 1) you dont like brake dust, 2) track the car, or better yet buy some very expensive carbon pads that are used in racing.

BTw...I am not a tuning expert. I do love my GIAC Stage II though
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      07-04-2013, 07:59 PM   #13
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New Ceramic Brakes at 105,000 mi.

I just did the brakes on my 105,000 mi. 07' 335i and went with Centric posiquiet ceramic (105) series. My first impressions are quite positve, good packaging they come with hardware and appear to be very well made. They are heat scorched for quick break in, when out on the first go round of brake pad bedding I like the feel and the initial bite. They seem to be very linear , easy to modulate, quite and I don't use that brake quiet stuff/goop.
I paired them with Centric premium (120) series disc rotors. Again a very positive feeling ,they look good. The castings are smooth split core design and have oem cooling vane configuration. The rotors that I replaced were BMW oem (had gone through two sets of pads and were worn to a thickness of 28.6mm right down to the minimum thickness. The old pads were Textar semi metalic and I had no complaints at all, they went 50,000mi. The car was never tracked and used mostly as a commuter (48mi round trip daily) + vacation car.

Michael
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      07-04-2013, 08:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken1137 View Post
Sorry OP but I have to respond. I work for a chemical company that produces 100MTs of Al2O3 just to name one product. We provide this raw material to companies that produce metal composites and ceramic composites in addition to a number of industrial applications including wet/dry sandpaper used for polishing clear coats, and semiconductor applications to polish metal layers at 5000A thickness. It is science. That being said, I know there are some brake pad companies that claim or call their pads ceramic when they just mix in clay with metal. Thus, their pads dont wear the rotors at a higher rate. However, there are a number of constituents within a brake pad and thousands of products within these main constituents that are used in the market. Thus, justification is difficult. Basic fact is ceramic (Al2O3 raw material) is harder based on the mohs scale, or any other, versus metal. Use ceramic pads if 1) you dont like brake dust, 2) track the car, or better yet buy some very expensive carbon pads that are used in racing.

BTw...I am not a tuning expert. I do love my GIAC Stage II though
Ugh, here goes...of course there are racing pads which have some type of ceramic formulation within their compound, but when you look at the specs of MOST ceramic-based "premium" brake pads, they are rarely a performance oriented pad. You can't sit there and tell me that a Hawk Performance Ceramic, or Akebono ProAct, etc. is going to outperform the Hawk HPS or HP+, etc. "if you track your car" or even drive remotely aggressive. That I know because I've run all those pads and many others, through my years of automotive tinkering. Maybe you're talking about something like the Carbotech XP12 or XP16? If that's the case, that's far from the obvious intentions of this thread anyway... Not discounting whatever it is you do for work (tl;dr) but you'd have a difficult time trying to convince people in the know otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerstop.com
Ceramic vs Metallic Pads

There are many rumors about ceramic pads causing excessive abrasive wear on the rotors or not holding up at high temperature. I conducted tests on 10 different metallic and ceramic pads to compare performance and wear characteristics.

The products included Hawk, Performance Friction, Raybestos, Power Stop, EBC, Akebono, Morse, and a widely used economy pad from China. There were five ceramic and 5 metallic pads. All data was performed using the test protocol in ISO NWI 2560 on a Chevy Tahoe front axle corner. The tests were run by Link Testing in Detroit. This is an aggressive test that pushes the pad to more than 1200 Fahrenheit, and conducts high speed stops, fade snubs and panic stops. One popular ceramic name brand pad did not make it through the test as it was completely consumed before the test ended. Therefore, I was only able to compare four ceramic and five metallic pads.

I measured and recorded the following:
. Rotor wear
. Pad wear
. Green friction coefficient (mu) - before the burnish or cure on the vehicle
. Fade snub friction coefficient (mu) - 15 consecutive stops without cooling
. Hot stop friction coefficient (mu) - above 1100 Fahrenheit
. Speed sensitivity - the percent change in mu at 160 kph vs 80 kph
. Pre-fade pedal pressure sensitivity - % change in mu
. Post fade pedal pressure sensitivity - % change in mu

Background:
About 25 years ago, we were using asbestos as the binding fiber for the friction compound. It was the ideal product to resist high temperature, and the barbs along the fiber captured various elements and contained it in a nice homogenous mix. When asbestos was phased out in the late 80's and early 90's, compounders had to find a good substitution for asbestos such as iron fibers, chopped kevlar or fiberglass. Development focused on a non-asbestos organic variety and a metallic type pad. That is, until Akebono developed the first ceramic pad. It was a giant leap in brake formulations because it provided outstanding noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) properties with stable mu over a wide temperature range. A true ceramic pad contains no ferrous metal, so there is no metal to metal contact between the pad and the rotor. However, the SAE has no definition of a ceramic pad to specify minimum contents of various elements. So a manufacturer could take a low metallic pad, sprinkle some ceramic stuff in the mix and call it ceramic. This has led to a wide variation in brake performance from brand to brand.
Are ceramic pads bad for your rotor?
Friction works primarily with two mechanisms: 1) abrasion and 2) adherence. Abrasive friction consumes the pad and/or the rotor with a cutting action. Adherent friction is when the pad material is deposited on the rotor, and a friction force is produced from the breaking of chemical bonds as material in this deposition layer is sheared. Abrasive pads will cause higher rotor wear (normally less than .002") and decrease rotor mass. Adherent type pads can actually increase rotor mass. At higher temperatures, adherent friction is the primary mode of producing a friction force.

In analyzing the test results, I found no correlation to make a general claim that ceramic pads are hard on rotors. In fact, it is clear that some metallic pads are more abrasive than some ceramic pads. The pads that were easiest on rotors were Akebono ceramic, Power Stop Z26 metallic and Performance Friction metallic.
Do metallic pads perform better than ceramic?
Under cold conditions, brake torque was not significantly different between ceramic and metallic pads. What I find interesting is what happens as temperature gets up to 1000 degrees. This is where metallic pads have the edge. Ceramic mu tends to drop at extreme conditions.
In summary, the general statement that all ceramic pads are hard on the rotor is false. There are advantages to ceramic pads in terms of uniform pedal pressure characteristics, low noise and low dust. Ceramic pads are a great street compound and can give better performance than some metallic pads. The advantage of metallic pads is improved high temperature performance. I recommend metallic pads for extreme performance such as hauling loads, track racing, towing trucks or traveling in mountains. Our Z36 series has super stopping power even at extreme temperatures. Power Stop offers Evolution ceramic with a nice compromise between pad bite and stability. Of all the products tested, Power Stop Evolution operates close to Akebono (the OE pad) in performance.
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      07-04-2013, 09:23 PM   #15
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OP, I recently changed my fronts to ceramic Akebono. Less dust, but they just don't have the feel of oem. Wouldn't do it again.
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      07-04-2013, 09:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
Ugh, here goes...
Geez...I give up. You started this by stating "wrong", then you stated "how does your work qualify me to make such statements". I am simply attempting to counter your statements and enlighten you.

In order to have a true scientific test comparison one has to define the constituents of the ceramic composition. However, most mfg will not disclose due to their IPs. A ceramic pad can have 0-100% Al2O3 fibers, the rest of the constituents can be:

1. Binders.
2. Abrasive materials (other than Al2O3 fibers).
3. Performance materials to enhance braking and lubricants to help with temperature.
4. Fillers.
5. Structural materials to maintain shape.

So, please understand it cannot be a ceramic pad if there is 0% Al2O3 fibers. Would it be correct to call a pad "ceramic" if there is only 20% Al2O3 fibers? As mentioned previously some mfg substitute clay for ceramic fibers but still call them ceramic pads. I believe, the last report I have read, 40% of auto mfg use ceramic pads on their cars. The question is; what %wt is present regarding Al2O3 fibers ? Keep in mind some are probably not true ceramic pads, or might contain less than 20%.Thus, I maintain my position; 1) ceramic pads will wear steel rotors at a higher rate than non-ceramic pads (based on science = coefficient of friction + hardness). Dont get me wrong...I am not 100% against ceramic pads, one just has to be aware of the fact the wear rate will be faster on your rotors. I believe the OEM pads are fine if you are not tracking your car.

FYI...you can copy whatever report you can find via Google b/c there are many available.

BTW...I did not say "Outperform"...I said "wear faster or at a higher rate".

Thanks for the entertainment.
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Last edited by ken1137; 07-04-2013 at 10:02 PM.. Reason: edit
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      07-04-2013, 09:39 PM   #17
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I understand what you're saying, but it goes above the scope of this thread. For instance, every oil thread doesn't turn into what is/isn't considered truly synthetic because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter; the same can be said about this ceramic/non-ceramic debate because I'm sure that as long as the pad in question meets the users needs, you could say it was made out of animantium and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

I'll put it to you like this; the op is considering a change from oem to a "ceramic" pad. Regardless of what you would take "ceramic" to mean, what "ceramic" pads would you deduce to be an appropriate option for the street car in question?
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      07-05-2013, 12:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FCobra94 View Post
I'll put it to you like this; the op is considering a change from oem to a "ceramic" pad. Regardless of what you would take "ceramic" to mean, what "ceramic" pads would you deduce to be an appropriate option for the street car in question?
None for a street car...especially since there are no industry guidelines regarding ceramic %wt. OEM is fine unless he wants to minimize his brake dust. You can see metal more so than ceramic which tends to be on the lighter side in color. Bottom line is he will encounter faster rotor wear if the ceramic pads have any ceramic. That was my point which you said is "false". Here is an article for your reading pleasure.

Performance Brake Blog - Ceramic Brake Pads vs Semi-Metallic. What Are The Differences.pdf
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      07-06-2013, 10:14 AM   #19
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For some clarity: "ceramic" is simply a class of materials- a large class. It could mean sapphire (very hard) or it could mean glass (potentially soft). In addition and as was pointed out, matrixing a hard material in a softer one is a great way to tune its properties of interest including friction and thermal conduction and capacity.

Lesson is, you can't really assume a ceramic brake pad is going to be harder or softer than a metal matrix one - it depends on how the engineers designed either.
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      07-06-2013, 10:31 AM   #20
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Finally this is starting to make sense...from a broader prospective you can't take the term "ceramic brake pads' so literally dude; especially when 99% of the time people will obviously associate that term with "premium" street pads, as obviously intended by the OP. I appreciate your googled article as well, but I'm already plenty familiar with it. As mentioned already, I have good experience with aggressive and what you would consider to be "true ceramic" racing brake pads from Carbotech and the like, as well as their street pads; obviously two ends of the spectrum.

Point is, I never would have thought you took the topic of the thread so literally. I wasn't disagreeing with your scientific analysis, when taken in proper context (ie steet vs race) but common sense would have obviously pointed to the fact street pads with "ceramic" in the model name were being discussed here, regardless of what's actually in their physical composition.
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      02-25-2018, 01:00 PM   #21
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Since they were first used on a few original equipment applications in 1985, friction materials that contain ceramic formulations have become recognized for their desirable blend of traits. These pads use ceramic compounds and copper fibers in place of the semi-metallic pad's steel fibers. This allows the ceramic pads to handle high brake temperatures with less heat fade, provide faster recovery after the stop, and generate less dust and wear on both the pads and rotors. And from a comfort standpoint, ceramic compounds provide much quieter braking because the ceramic compound helps dampen noise by generating a frequency beyond the human hearing range.
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