[cupertinosteve]

I know its still "early" to make any complete comparison. On the hardware side of things, I think things are done.

On the tuner side of things, I'm sure both sides will say "they are still working on tweaks" - which is not too dissimilar to hardware vs. software engineers but I digress.

The above situation shouldn't stop us from having discussion fun.

Vargas/PTF - Cliff Notes
- Upgraded Twin Turbos - Garrett GTX-R63
- assuming full, catless, FBO, 335 6MT
- 96.5 Octane (673 WHP / 564 WTQ)
- 96.5 Octane+Meth (693 WHP / 572 WTQ)
- 30 PSI
- see results thread here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828368


FFTEC/Vishnu - Cliff Notes
- Single Turbo - Precision Turbo 6466
- assuming full catless, FBO, 335 6MT
- 100 octane+Meth (700 WHP / 599 WTQ)
- 26 PSI
- see results thread here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829412

Its clear that tuning for WOT is well within Shiv and Jake/Dzenno capabilities. And this discussion wouldn't be 100% complete until we add Terry@BMS, CobbTuning and possibly folks who haven't had their shot at the hardware, but until then ...

Some Possible Discussion Topics:
- Power Potential?
- Spooling Characteristics?
- How much fueling is left?
- HPFP or LPFP limitations?
- What happens at 800+ WHP?
- What happens at 700+ WTQ?
- What have other platforms taught us?
- What are we forgetting?
...
- Paper or Plastic? ... Who shot JFK?

Everyone is welcome to comment ... I'll be back in a few hours.


side note - Anyone have time to do a graph overlay? Gotta run to a meeting. (I feel like i'm like pulling the pin on a grenade, walking out of the room and coming back later).

[Jason]

Keep this discussion on-topic and TECHNICAL ONLY folks.

All tuner/tuning drama and inciting will be removed and/or infracted.

[ian2002525]

Based on both of the dyno graphs, Vishnu's Single Turbo spools faster than the VTT's stage3 turbos.
BTW, you forget to add pricing comparison!!!

[OpenFlash]

Steve is right. A graph overlay would be a good place to start as it will illustrate some very key difference between both approaches. Can someone who that? I don't have the technology on my iPhone

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by cupertinosteve

I know its still "early" to make any complete comparison. On the hardware side of things, I think things are done.

On the tuner side of things, I'm sure both sides will say "they are still working on tweaks" - which is not too dissimilar to hardware vs. software engineers but I digress.

The above situation shouldn't stop us from having discussion fun.

Vargas/PTF - Cliff Notes
- Upgraded Twin Turbos - Garrett GTX-R63
- assuming full, catless, FBO, 335 6MT
- 98 Octane (673 WHP / 564 WTQ)
- 98 Octane+Meth (693 WHP / 572 WTQ)
- 30 PSI
- see results thread here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=828368


FFTEC/Vishnu - Cliff Notes
- Single Turbo - Precision Turbo 6466
- assuming full catless, FBO, 335 6MT
- 100 octane+Meth (700 WHP / 599 WTQ)
- 26 PSI
- see results thread here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=829412

Its clear that tuning for WOT is well within Shiv and Jake/Dzenno capabilities. And this discussion wouldn't be 100% complete until we add Terry@BMS, CobbTuning and possibly folks who haven't had their shot at the hardware, but until then ...

Some Possible Discussion Topics:
- Power Potential?
- Spooling Characteristics?
- How much fueling is left?
- HPFP or LPFP limitations?
- What happens at 800+ WHP?
- What happens at 700+ WTQ?
- What have other platforms taught us?
- What are we forgetting?
...
- Paper or Plastic? ... Who shot JFK?

Everyone is welcome to comment ... I'll be back in a few hours.


side note - Anyone have time to do a graph overlay? Gotta run to a meeting. (I feel like i'm like pulling the pin on a grenade, walking out of the room and coming back later).

I would like to say our hardware is no where near complete. Our manifold design will be changing along with many other things. Comparing a prototype kit to a kit that has been out of prototype stage for almost 2 years is a little bit skewed. I wont bitch about it, the comparisons can and will be made and I am ok with it. Just keep these small facts in mind. Completed kit for 2 years with thousands of hours of testing time, vs prototype kit that has been on the dyno twice.

[TurboBimmer]

Well the Vargas kit is still in beta phase, isn't it? Haven't even seen production model pictures yet. The tuning is also in the very early (and very promising) stages. So a comparison at this point is useless unless you want to make it a theoretical twins vs single debate??

[acdHQK713K]

I would like to see some 91 oct and 93 octane pump gas ONLY comparisons.

[cupertinosteve]

Originally Posted by ian2002525

...
BTW, you forget to add pricing comparison!!!

Just trimmed your quote to the point you made.

I'm assuming supporting mods are there or that folks are coming from decent level of modifications (FBO+meth, clutch upgrade ...).

The part I couldn't tell if Vargas includes:
- upgraded MAP sensor or not. (i assumed yes)
- recirculating wastegate pipe (i assumed yes)

That being said, when I priced it out to their list prices:
- Vargas - $8495
- FFTEC/Vishnu - $7995 (base kit + MAP sensor + ball-bearing + recirculating wastegate + Y-pipe)

In my mind, this is not really much of a difference after you consider your labor costs and prior investments.

[zeel]

Originally Posted by Stangorang

I would like to see some 91 oct and 93 octane pump gas ONLY comparisons.

+1 to this

[cupertinosteve]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

I would like to say our hardware is no where near complete. Our manifold design will be changing along with many other things. ... .

Good point ... I assumed it was near production quality since there was a decent pre-order list.

I think the Vishnu kit has only been out for a year and 3 or 4 months. The manifold and bits hadn't changed since the first customers took delivery.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by cupertinosteve

Just trimmed your quote to the point you made.

I'm assuming supporting mods are there or that folks are coming from decent level of modifications (FBO+meth, clutch upgrade ...).

The part I couldn't tell if Vargas includes:
- upgraded MAP sensor or not. (i assumed yes)
- recirculating wastegate pipe (i assumed yes)

That being said, when I priced it out to their list prices:
- Vargas - $8495
- FFTEC/Vishnu - $7995 (base kit + MAP sensor + ball-bearing + recirculating wastegate + Y-pipe)

In my mind, this is not really much of a difference after you consider your labor costs and prior investments.

I have told my web designer to update our site for a week. The price is $7999. That is why I hate these comparison, they are never ever accurate, also we use internal gates, there is no wastegate pipe. Also keep in mind, the Vishnu kit has many "required" upgrades which bring the kit to over 10K. I am going to say this once. If you are going to do a direct comparison. Make it accurate or I having Jason pull this thread, you are not going to throw up some skewed comparison and call it accurate. That is for sure.

[cupertinosteve]

OK i'm really leaving now. I'll be back ... please play nicely.

[adictedtopoker]

It was also mentioned that VTT didn't test on 98 octane like origionally thought. The mix was calculated by another member to be ~96.5 I believe.

Don't forget the smoothing differences.....

I dont even know why bringing 2 different setups into this discussion was needed. This should be theoretical like Autobahn335i stated. In the end, this thread will be closed before we hit the third page.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by cupertinosteve

Good point ... I assumed it was near production quality since there was a decent pre-order list.

I think the Vishnu kit has only been out for a year and 3 or 4 months. The manifold and bits hadn't changed since the first customers took delivery.

Exactly, thats the production kit, I can assure you when the kit was in prototype phase, many things changed. Thats why it is a prototype.

[adictedtopoker]

Originally Posted by cupertinosteve

Just trimmed your quote to the point you made.

I'm assuming supporting mods are there or that folks are coming from decent level of modifications (FBO+meth, clutch upgrade ...).

The part I couldn't tell if Vargas includes:
- upgraded MAP sensor or not. (i assumed yes)
- recirculating wastegate pipe (i assumed yes)

That being said, when I priced it out to their list prices:
- Vargas - $8495
- FFTEC/Vishnu - $7995 (base kit + MAP sensor + ball-bearing + recirculating wastegate + Y-pipe)

In my mind, this is not really much of a difference after you consider your labor costs and prior investments.

You also missed the large increase in cost to purchase the kit with the 6466.

See discussion below:

Originally Posted by ian2002525

This turbo kit costs $6750?? Shiv or FFTEC please chain in to confirm the price, thanks!

Originally Posted by MikeB@fftec

Ian, the turbo kit that is on Captain's car with the 6466 upgrade will sell for $8154. The cost of the 6466 turbo is around $300 more than the 6262 and still has their CEA compressor and turbine wheels.

[jippii ensio]

The right time to compare is when people start to make decisions. I thought both kits can be ordered and people have actually made commitments for both? If yes, then we are kind of late already to help them in their decision making process.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech

I would like to say our hardware is no where near complete. Our manifold design will be changing along with many other things. Comparing a prototype kit to a kit that has been out of prototype stage for almost 2 years is a little bit skewed. I wont bitch about it, the comparisons can and will be made and I am ok with it. Just keep these small facts in mind. Completed kit for 2 years with thousands of hours of testing time, vs prototype kit that has been on the dyno twice.

FYI, out turbo kit has been avaiable to the public for 1 year, not 2. Our hardware hasn't changed since the day it was released. The only change we made between the one prototype kit (on my car) and the first production kit (on FBIS's car) was to the manifold for the purpose of getting more engine mount clearance. Nothing that would result in any performance enhancement. What changes do you expect to make that would result in any significant changes to performance (power, spool-up, etc). It's also worth mentioning that as soon as you start taking deposits on a kit (something we refused to do until we had a final kit), it is reasonable for others to consider it a product that can be compared to others.

[AK 335i]

oh boy. both are badass.. but I think my setup will rise above both 😁

[MisterEm]

Once the Stage 3 Turbos get out of their "beta" and "development" stages I would predict similar potential from both kits (hero dynos, 60-130, 1320' etc).

For the dyno runs, I want to see what that 6466 single can do on true 91 (without meth) and straight E85 with Vargas' upgraded HPFP. Datalogs of the new HPFP "suggests" that even the "new and updated" PN for the pump is "not ideal" above 500 whp.

Unfortunately, at 700 whp both kits will need to focus their effort on traction and consistency for the time being or it will be like the "independent" (not shop sponsored) HPF M3's with 800whp and still running 11's.

Outside of the drama, both the recent ST fine-tuning, and the Stage 3 release will be a treat to follow through 2013.

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Lets make this accurate. Vishnu ST - If you want ball bearing turbo $595. (Included in our kit) You want to use your existing exhaust $250 (included in our kit). Methanol kit $895 REQUIRED for the ST kit. Meth is an option on ours. You can choose to not run meth on our kit and still make comparable power. That's $1740 on top of the $7995 or $9735. Oh did I mention that is with the 6262 turbo which lets be CLEAR is NOT capable of making they power they just did on Captain Insano's car. That turbo they used is a 6466 and according to PTE's website is a $300 more then the 6262. So now add in another $300 you are at $10,035. To reach the same air flow numbers we achieved in our prototype kit with our second to largest offering. These are all the things people forget about.

Edit: pricing fixed to show FFTECS price for 6466

[ian2002525]

Originally Posted by Autobahn335i

Well the Vargas kit is still in beta phase, isn't it? Haven't even seen production model pictures yet. The tuning is also in the very early (and very promising) stages. So a comparison at this point is useless unless you want to make it a theoretical twins vs single debate??

Like you said since the Tony's VTT is still in "beta phase", but why of all the pricing are already out?? Ironic...unless the marked price were for BETA turbo kit....

[Tony@vargasturbotech]

Originally Posted by ian2002525

Like you said since the Tony's VTT is still in "beta phase", but why of all the pricing are already out?? Ironic...unless the marked price were for BETA turbo kit....

Very simple, what we did is actually more dangerous for us then the end user. We gave pricing after we sourced best we could what the production kit was going to cost us. If in the end the the parts end up costing more or we add a couple things. We end up eating the cost, not the customer. Obviously the marked price was not for a prototype kit. That is plainly obvious