[ctuna]

When a single pair of Morel 4 inch components is around 500 bucks(or more) and a cheaper 6 channel amp is around 500 then you have the under seat woofers which aren't to bad cost wise. And the cost of a quality installation has got to be minimum 3 or 4 hundred.

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by ctuna

When a single pair of Morel 4 inch components is around 500 bucks(or more) and a cheaper 6 channel amp is around 500 then you have the under seat woofers which aren't to bad cost wise. And the cost of a quality installation has got to be minimum 3 or 4 hundred.

Uh, yeah...my customers pay less than that for Morel components with BMW steel adapter rings...but yes, 6-channel amps are around there. We have been using a 5-channel amp and a 6-channel amp in that range.

But a lot of our upgrades are a 4-channel amp, leaving rears on stock, and upgrading front and underseat.

[ctuna]

I like the Morel Dotech Ovation 4 and the SWS8-2 and the Zapco DC360.4 myself as a basic package, tuned for the car, and with good mid to midbass transition, largely due to the DSP settings I use. This also damps the SWS8 peak and extends the low end a bit, so we get a more neutral and wider-range woofer.

Installed we do that for $2200. In the E91, we can use two DC200 vertical in the well instead (if you also want a 10" in the side panel, we can put a DC500 in there too, and if you want rears, there is room for a 3rd DC200).

So what I'd like to do in that car is $2300-2500 installed.

I know this good stuff but its still twice 1200.
and it only does 4 out of 6 channels

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by ctuna

I know this good stuff but its still twice 1200.

Can't argue with your math...2400 is twice as much as 1200.

Originally Posted by ctuna

and it only does 4 out of 6 channels

Uh, what's your point? If my 4 channels sounds better than 6 channels, why would it matter?

We have started doing some lower cost packages with Rainbow 4" components - but for Stereo audio in 2010/2011, some sort of DSP is essential, and that makes the total cost higher. The install is not inconsequential either.

I guess I didn't go into business to sell systems cheaper than OEM... just better than OEM

[ctuna]

But I would have a bias to do the whole thing , (amp and all speakers)
And I know you said its the result that counts .
But it just seems to me that I would want to take out all the cheap
stuff and and have a clean setup.

So if you are leaving the rear speaker in with the Amp also (in the HI FI)
what do you do with the hanging outputs to the front doors and under seat
speakers from the old Amp.

I am assuming you are using the Head Unit outs to drive and aftermarket amp.

I may be out of touch but the last time I put in a Alpine system in an Integra it cost me something
Like 800 bucks installed with a cd changer. True it was only 60watts a channel peak but I
put some nice JL components in the front and its still better than the HI FI in the BMW as far as
volume ,bass ,highs and distortion goes
I guess my point is at one time things didn't seem so outrageously expensive
like movies and popcorn (12.50 for popcorn and drink)welcome to the 21st century.
My sense of proportion has received a severe beating


The Integra motor finally bit it at 210k mile so I had it replaced which kind of took
my mind off stereo for awhile.

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by ctuna

But I would have a bias to do the whole thing , (amp and all speakers)

Good to admit.

Originally Posted by ctuna

And I know you said its the result that counts .

Do you agree?

Originally Posted by ctuna

But it just seems to me that I would want to take out all the cheap
stuff and and have a clean setup.

This is where the bias comes in. You don't seem to have a reason, other than "it seems right".

Your terms "cheap" and "clean" are indicative of that bias you mentioned.

Originally Posted by ctuna

So if you are leaving the rear speaker in with the Amp also (in the HI FI)
what do you do with the hanging outputs to the front doors and under seat
speakers from the old Amp.

"hanging" is another term with negative connotation. What you refer to is the simplest sort of thing to deal with for an installer, and is no reason for avoiding such an upgrade.

Originally Posted by ctuna

I am assuming you are using the Head Unit outs to drive and aftermarket amp.

The HU has F and R outputs, we'd use the F to run the fronts and subs, and leave the R running the rear channels of the amp - UNLESS we get to leave the rear speakers completely disconnected, and then we use the F and R fader control as a subwoofer level control.

We just did a $2600 audio system in an Audi A3 with front speakers and a sub - no rears at all. The owner wasn't totally certain about the no-rears approach, but agreed to give it a shot. He loves it.

[ctuna]

So do you take out the old amp and only run the Front door and Floor speakers
Front head unit outs drive the doors and the Rear head unit out are rerouted through the amp to the floors with nothing powering the rear doors. Which still gives you a fader between the doors and floors.
The Audi has kind of a different acoustic chamber than E9x Wagon,Sedan or Coupe .

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by ctuna

So do you take out the old amp and only run the Front door and Floor speakers

We've done it lots of ways. That's how mine is run currently as our demo car.

Personally, if you're not running a L-R ambience rear channel, or an MS-8, I think rears are a waste of money.

Originally Posted by ctuna

Front head unit outs drive the doors and the Rear head unit out are rerouted through the amp to the floors with nothing powering the rear doors. Which still gives you a fader between the doors and floors.

Yes, I've done this for years with HUs - aftermarket or OEM - that lack a sub output control. I use the F output on the mids and highs and the R output on the subwoofer, and the Fader is a subwoofer level control!

Originally Posted by ctuna

The Audi has kind of a different acoustic chamber than E9x Wagon,Sedan or Coupe .

Uh, yes, it does, but think about this for a minute. It's a similar width. It's a similar length. It's a similar height. It has similar reflective surfaces in similar positions. It has similar seating positions.

If there is zero value in comparing a front-sub-no rear speaker sound in a car like this to an E9x - ZERO value - then no listening-in-car-experience is useful when thinking about ANY other car. Can't use your listening experiences in a coupe to think about a sedan. Can't use your E46 sedan experiences to think about an E90 sedan...

It's actually more useful to look for the known and identifiable differences than to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I've asked a few BMW owners of various models to fade their Fader control all the way to the front and leave it for a few days, and report back. Most of them respond that they can't tell the difference. If they can't tell the difference, what kind of con man would I have to be, to tell them they should spend money on a difference they can't detect?

[Windjammer]

I've had my 2011 335i sedan now for a week and it has the basic (non hifi) sound system. I've always planned on upgrading the speakers, so I didn't opt for the HK/L7 premium system. I thought 'why spend another $800+ if I'm just going to rip it out anyway?'

What I wasn't counting on was not having the front door tweeters. This seriously limits my upgradeability for front speakers, since now I only have the 4" door speakers to work with. I have iDrive, so I'm not interested in changing out the head unit or adding anything that doesn't look oem. I also noticed that my rear doors do not have speakers. Instead, I have rear deck speakers. I can't tell what size or kind they are since they're buried behind metal.

Does anyone know what size speakers I have in the rear deck and under the front seats?

[Technic]

Originally Posted by Windjammer

I've had my 2011 335i sedan now for a week and it has the basic (non hifi) sound system. I've always planned on upgrading the speakers, so I didn't opt for the HK/L7 premium system. I thought 'why spend another $800+ if I'm just going to rip it out anyway?'

What I wasn't counting on was not having the front door tweeters. This seriously limits my upgradeability for front speakers, since now I only have the 4" door speakers to work with.

No, it does not limit your upgrades as long as you get the OEM tweeter pods. The P/N is posted in this forum (some $34 each).

I have iDrive, so I'm not interested in changing out the head unit or adding anything that doesn't look oem. I also noticed that my rear doors do not have speakers. Instead, I have rear deck speakers. I can't tell what size or kind they are since they're buried behind metal.

Does anyone know what size speakers I have in the rear deck and under the front seats?

No need to change the iDrive unit at all. Your front and rear OEM speakers are 4", the underseat woofers are 6.5".

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by Windjammer

Does anyone know what size speakers I have in the rear deck and under the front seats?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407085

[Windjammer]

Thanks, reading the pdf doc and knowing I can get the oem tweeter pods at a decent price makes me feel a lot better.

Since I have iDrive, the document stated that the head unit is coded to drive more treble and bass to the front door speakers to overcome the lack of tweeters and 8" subs in the floor. After I upgrade the speakers in my car, is there a way to alter this built in coding?

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by Windjammer

Since I have iDrive, the document stated that the head unit is coded to drive more treble and bass to the front door speakers to overcome the lack of tweeters and 8" subs in the floor. After I upgrade the speakers in my car, is there a way to alter this built in coding?

Not actually since you have iDrive... they all do it if you have the base Stereo system, regardless of the HU driving it.

Here is the EQ curve:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395987

Now, there are a couple of ways to do it:

- Use some means of "after-the-fact" normalization:

-- JL Audio Clean Sweep, RF 360.2, Alpine H650, etc.

-- JBL MS-8 (better than all of the above)

-- Zapco DCxxx DSP amplifier or DSP-6 processor


- "Recode" the HU to "HiFi" mode. Talk with Patrys on the board about this. CANNOT be done by US dealers.

- "Recode" the unit to "Top HiFI" mode, activate the MOST fiber-optic output, and use a MOTUS labs AGW+ if it's released for 2011 already.


We've upgraded a number of 2010+ BMWs with Stereo audio, and we've gotten really good-sounding results with the Zapco DSP amps. I'm confident that the MS-8 can do well also, but unlike a HiFi or Top HiFI Logic 7/ h/k car, there are not enough speakers to drive with an MS-8, so that drives up the total cost of an MS-8 upgrade compared to those cars.

[Windjammer]

I'm in the US, so I guess the safest bet is one of the 'after the fact' options. I was planning on reusing my old JL amps (300/2 v1, 300/2 v2, 300/4 v1). Would I still need to get a CleanSweep or similar?

I've been moving the same sound system from car to car ever since college. Now, I have a collection of JL amps and subs, Boston Rally speakers, and some Focal K2P components. I was going to start plugging stuff in to see what sounded best. The acoustics always change from car to car, so I know I'll be trying several different combos until I find the right sound.

The speakers we put in my wife's car made the front page of Car Audio Mag 2 weeks ago. We put 2 JL 8w3's in her Lexus RX 450h. They sound amazing with only 600W of power. It would be great if I could put those 8w3's under the front seats of the 335i. I've heard that the space under the front seats is shallow, so I'm not sure if it's a good fit?

[VP Electricity]

No such thing as Car Audio mag any more... And advertisers do great on the web sire that survives.

The 8s won't fit.

[VP Electricity]

Oh, and I'm sure someone will work on your BMW for next to nothing, ctuna. Things didn't get more expensive. There have always been low rent hacksters and better shops that cost more. What we do isn't for all.

[ctuna]

So I know its worth it to take it to a good installer . But my sense of proportion says 2500 for a stereo in a car is more than what I want to spend, at least until I win the lottery. Man I could get a high end LED TV for that price.
As they said in the Holy Grail movie "bring me a shrubbery and not to expensive"

[VP Electricity]

I mean no disrespect when I say, for 2500 to seem so unattainable as to require you to win the lottery, you have a wealth consciousness which is surprising.

Most people find any audio upgrade to be un-needed. My wife loves her favorite song on a single-speaker AM radio.

But high end audio systems in cars have started at a couple thousand for over 20 years.

There are legitimate issues with some BMWs - especially 2010 Stereo cars - that don't vanish just because you only want to spend $250.

The same argument you use against spending money on audio in a BMW, is what many Hyundai and Kia owners use against ever considering owning a BMW. Own what you want - but that doesn't make anyone else wrong for wanting something better and more expensive.

[ctuna]

A moderate upgrade can be significantly better than stock , especially since stock use to mean pretty crappy in most cases. I was pretty happy with the HK upgrade in my 330ci when I got it. The HI Fi is what I would call marginal.
The thing that really makes this difficult is there just aren't a lot of 4 inch component pairs that are in what I would call a mid range price that I am familiar with . I like JL Audio a lot but I would have to put a larger hole in the doors, and then there is the depth issue. Actually I saw a review where you commented of some European dude who put 5.25 MB Quarts in the doors and it looked pretty good.

[Windjammer]

Okay, so the AGW+ looks like it won't interfere with Bluetooth or the Navigation voice. It's more expensive, but looks like it's the least invasive. Can I assume that my car already has MOST fiber optic hookups? and how do I 'recode' the HU to 'activate' them?

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by Windjammer

Okay, so the AGW+ looks like it won't interfere with Bluetooth or the Navigation voice. It's more expensive, but looks like it's the least invasive. Can I assume that my car already has MOST fiber optic hookups? and how do I 'recode' the HU to 'activate' them?

As mentioned in this doc -

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407085

...f your car has harman kardon audio - also called "Top HiFi" - the fiber optic outputs are already working as needed to supply a signal to the OEM amplifier.

The AGW+ needs to be ordered in a configuration that matches your car.

I haven't tried to order a 2011 yet, but I can email the international sales director who regularly asks me for orders and see if it's available.

If your 2011 has base Stereo, then the HU needs to be recoded to "Top HiFi" mode, probably involving Patrys on this board?

i

[VP Electricity]

Originally Posted by ctuna

A moderate upgrade can be significantly better than stock , especially since stock use to mean pretty crappy in most cases. I was pretty happy with the HK upgrade in my 330ci when I got it. The HI Fi is what I would call marginal.
The thing that really makes this difficult is there just aren't a lot of 4 inch component pairs that are in what I would call a mid range price that I am familiar with . I like JL Audio a lot but I would have to put a larger hole in the doors, and then there is the depth issue. Actually I saw a review where you commented of some European dude who put 5.25 MB Quarts in the doors and it looked pretty good.

Well, what I do is moderate if you want to call what 6spdcoupe does high end. He does a lot of AGW+, a lot of Jehnert door panels, a lot of Dynaudio and Tru technology.

I'm not telling you that getting cheap parts can't be better than stock, but please don't act like I'm some shyster trying to get people to waste money. Some folks on here would put Hankook or Kumho tires on their BMW, and others would never dream of it. Neither one is wrong.

The problem isn't that there aren't too many 4". The problem is that, for many reasons, these cars are easier to make sound bad than to sound good. That's not my fault. Many new cars share this issue. Try a new Audi wiith 7" door woofers and a 300 Hz active crossover point.

Honestly, ctuna, wouldn't your sense of proportion make you drive a Honda?