[IsleOfMs]

Originally Posted by whofelt

Tesla is still number one when it comes to range/value.

If I’m wrong, please list vehicles comparable.

Can't believe people are validating this nonsense. The Plaid is faster than than any car cheaper than the Taycan Turbo GT. So if 0-60 is all you care about and you can afford a Plaid but not the Porsche, then okay.

But I've never seen anyone drive a Tesla fast so I do think even in that case, all you'd have is the knowledge that you could drive fast but wouldn't actually get any use out of that feature.

The Juniper is pretty slow. Not all Teslas are amazingly fast. There are over 20 different models that are slower than my M-lite ICE car.

Here's my advice, the best EVs are like the best ICE cars. They're made by car companies, not by tech companies. You should consider the Ionic 5N. I also love the EVs that Audi and Porsche make.

But if you have your heart set on really uncomfortable seats, jarring suspension, bad panel gaps, lots of recalls, no indicator stalk, having to use a touch screen for the most basic operations, and horrible residuals, the Tesla is probably the only car for you.

[Sedoy]

Wow, the amount of things you got wrong in your post is pretty wild. This is just like talking to an old Toyota driver who knows nothing about BMWs but swears they’re all unreliable junk that will need an engine replacement by 45K miles.

Originally Posted by IsleOfMs

Can't believe people are validating this nonsense. The Plaid is faster than than any car cheaper than the Taycan Turbo GT. So if 0-60 is all you care about and you can afford a Plaid but not the Porsche, then okay.

But I've never seen anyone drive a Tesla fast so I do think even in that case, all you'd have is the knowledge that you could drive fast but wouldn't actually get any use out of that feature.

The Juniper is pretty slow. Not all Teslas are amazingly fast. There are over 20 different models that are slower than my M-lite ICE car.

Here's my advice, the best EVs are like the best ICE cars. They're made by car companies, not by tech companies. You should consider the Ionic 5N. I also love the EVs that Audi and Porsche make.

But if you have your heart set on really uncomfortable seats, jarring suspension, bad panel gaps, lots of recalls, no indicator stalk, having to use a touch screen for the most basic operations, and horrible residuals, the Tesla is probably the only car for you.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Oh, you’re right, the $7,500 was an “Air Credit,” not the federal tax credit. It’s pretty tricky how they worded it. They got me on that one
They offer $10.5K discounts from $70K, not sure why they can't just lover MSRP to $55K and get much more sales...

I don't think Lucid makes profit on the Pure even at $70K.

[Brandoch]

Tesla set up a pop-up sales booth on the White House lawn.
- mic drop-

The fact that people still support this type of behavior is sad. And not only support it, but embrace it.

There are other manufacturers besides Tesla.

[Alfisti]

Gotta say I am constantly disappointed to be on what is supposed to be a "drivers" forum only to find blokes obsessed with tech and actually wanting Autopilot, jesus H I couldn't imagine anything worse.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Gotta say I am constantly disappointed to be on what is supposed to be a "drivers" forum only to find blokes obsessed with tech and actually wanting Autopilot, jesus H I couldn't imagine anything worse.

Why would you assume that? Most BMWs are turbo charged, automatic, 4 door belugas... and SUVs... let's not forget the 85 different "SUV" variants.

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Why would you assume that? Most BMWs are turbo charged, automatic, 4 door belugas... and SUVs... let's not forget the 85 different "SUV" variants.

What BMW do you have now?

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

What BMW do you have now?

None. BMW died for me after I sold my 2006 Z4MR which I still regret.

[IsleOfMs]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Wow, the amount of things you got wrong in your post is pretty wild. This is just like talking to an old Toyota driver who knows nothing about BMWs but swears they’re all unreliable junk that will need an engine replacement by 45K miles.

What do you think I got wrong? I can bring receipts but I have to know what you're challenging.

- Seats and suspension: I've been a passenger in 3 Teslas. Worst seats I've ever been in and I've owned an Elise.
- The Taycan Turbo GT is faster than the Plaid. It's publicly available info.
- I personally ran a draggy verified 3.7 0-60 and C&D says my car does the quarter in 12.2. You can google acceleration numbers for all the various Teslas. About half of them are slower than that.
- The 5N is a fantastic car. Would destroy the Juniper in a straight line or on the track.
- Teslas have buttons on the steering wheel to indicate instead of stalks. (again, I'm just shotgunning my response because you didn't specify what you think is wrong.)
- You have to use menus in the touch screen to open the glovebox.
- The Cybertruck has been recalled 8 times in 1 year. The most recent one was because body panels were glued on and that glue failed. This isn't how good cars attach body panels.
- The residuals are horrible because...
1) Elon keeps discounting new cars driving the price of used cars
2) Everything else he's doing makes people want to give them away
(but residuals are easily verifiable. Please prove me wrong)
- The Cybertruck is 17x more likely to catch fire than the Pinto.
- panel gaps (look at the panel gaps)
- The NHTSA was investigating Tesla before the CEO fired the people investigating him.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by IsleOfMs

What do you think I got wrong? I can bring receipts but I have to know what you're challenging.

- Seats and suspension: I've been a passenger in 3 Teslas. Worst seats I've ever been in and I've owned an Elise.
- The Taycan Turbo GT is faster than the Plaid. It's publicly available info.
- I personally ran a draggy verified 3.7 0-60 and C&D says my car does the quarter in 12.2. You can google acceleration numbers for all the various Teslas. About half of them are slower than that.
- The 5N is a fantastic car. Would destroy the Juniper in a straight line or on the track.
- Teslas have buttons on the steering wheel to indicate instead of stalks. (again, I'm just shotgunning my response because you didn't specify what you think is wrong.)
- You have to use menus in the touch screen to open the glovebox.
- The Cybertruck has been recalled 8 times in 1 year. The most recent one was because body panels were glued on and that glue failed. This isn't how good cars attach body panels.
- The residuals are horrible because...
1) Elon keeps discounting new cars driving the price of used cars
2) Everything else he's doing makes people want to give them away
(but residuals are easily verifiable. Please prove me wrong)
- The Cybertruck is 17x more likely to catch fire than the Pinto.
- panel gaps (look at the panel gaps)
- The NHTSA was investigating Tesla before the CEO fired the people investigating him.

That investigation is amazing. It basically states don't call it autopilot because Americans are retarded and will try to take a nap. I don't disagree.

[IsleOfMs]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

That investigation is amazing. It basically states don't call it autopilot because Americans are retarded and will try to take a nap. I don't disagree.

If autopilot worked, drivers could take a nap. Waymo cars don't use a driver at all. And part of the investigation was about FSD which is just inferior bc it's purely camera based and can be confused. EDIT: further the whole notion of "intervene when this fails" is preposterous. If you're driving a regular car and a cop sees you drifting into the shoulder and when you realize you're about to smack into a barrier (or cross into oncoming traffic) and then make an emergency veer back to safety, you get pulled over and probably arrested for reckless endangerment. But if that happens in a Tesla, the cop pats you on the back? "Good job stepping in when this shoddy technology almost killed you."

[Alfisti]

AI driving is the greatest vaporware in the history of mankind. Never has so much been invested for such utter failure.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by IsleOfMs

If autopilot worked, drivers could take a nap. Waymo cars don't use a driver at all. And part of the investigation was about FSD which is just inferior bc it's purely camera based and can be confused. EDIT: further the whole notion of "intervene when this fails" is preposterous. If you're driving a regular car and a cop sees you drifting into the shoulder and when you realize you're about to smack into a barrier (or cross into oncoming traffic) and then make an emergency veer back to safety, you get pulled over and probably arrested for reckless endangerment. But if that happens in a Tesla, the cop pats you on the back? "Good job stepping in when this shoddy technology almost killed you."

Waymo is a level 4 system. Tesla is level 2 MAYBE level 3 for FSD under the best conditions. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows this. That's why the system yells at you if you look away or don't hold the wheel or brake or do any number of things.

The only legit argument is the name. Like I said people are dumb, don't call it autopilot because some idiot will believe it. My Lexus does 90% of what autopilot does. Lane centering, adaptive cruise etc... yet no one complains that you can't take a nap in the Lexus.

Originally Posted by Alfisti

AI driving is the greatest vaporware in the history of mankind. Never has so much been invested for such utter failure.

While I do 100% think Tesla charging thousands of dollars for FSD that doesn't exist and wont exist for a long time is vaporware, I don't think self driving in general is vaporware. That's like saying broadband is vaporware in the dialup days or that mobile computers are vaporware.

[HDMI]

Originally Posted by NickyC

If I were looking for an EV there is no other option than Tesla in my opinion.

Wait, what??? Lol.
Tesla would be dead last on my list, and only if it's free, I'd never pay for one.
Too damn boring looking, all of them look the same. Interior is like an empty box, with the fugly iPad in the middle.
Horrible quality, service techs at Tesla centers passed them off as "within spec", so you're screwed.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

While I do 100% think Tesla charging thousands of dollars for FSD that doesn't exist and wont exist for a long time is vaporware, I don't think self driving in general is vaporware. That's like saying broadband is vaporware in the dialup days or that mobile computers are vaporware.

It doesn't work, it is the hardest thing man-kind has ever tried to do from a technical perspective and we simply cannot get over the hump. This is not a grey area, either it works or it doe snot work and it does not work.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

It doesn't work, it is the hardest thing man-kind has ever tried to do from a technical perspective and we simply cannot get over the hump. This is not a grey area, either it works or it doe snot work and it does not work.

Agree. FSD (rebranded Tesla Autopilot) is not equivalent to aircraft self flying systems. Depending on the class of air space, planes are controlled and separated by as little as 2.5 miles or a far as 5 miles. Aircraft have 3 axis of flight, and there are no intersections, animals, drunk drivers, curbs, trashcans, or people getting in the path of a moving airplane. Airflight is extremely safe with and without automation because aircraft position is ultimately controlled by a 3rd party (ATC) and aircraft are kept separated by large buffers of air space. And aircraft are operated by highly trained individuals.

Ground traffic is the complete opposite of controlled air space. Auto or self driving anything has no business even being a concept for automobiles. Pipedream.