[lawdude]

The psychology of mob mentality is interesting. Take away the fuel (fear driven by ignorance) and the instigators (the haters) and there is no mob.

[335iheLLraiseR]

Originally Posted by scalbert

What I am finding falls back to a post I made a while back; there is too much drama and too little real information. What I truly find unfortunate for Vishnu is that the beta testers, Eugen being one of them, never saw the spikes occurring. I would expect, as a tester, due diligence would have been performed. I had mine on for less than a few days of real driving when I was noticing the variations and was trying to determine the methods to generate them.

Now back to the matter, a small spike is nothing. In addition, the DME/PROcede needs to adapt when changes are made. Stop with the drama, there will always be fluctuations in boost, stock did, 1.47 did and so does 2.x.

Why didn't 1.47 spike (mine did slightly) on throttle input. The boost ramp rate was much slower, most likely due to the bypassed solenoid. This should be easily understood by individuals testing products. If it ramps slower, it is easier to control. But you also lose the response which V2 gave back. I can live with a small spike. We just need to determine the details on how and why it occurs and how to correct or limit them.

Originally Posted by scalbert

Again, use the whole information, not just a piece of it. I posted it previously which Shiv, again, provided a link. I find it very disappointing that you would post about someone else’s situation prior to them making a full diagnosis. I was out of town and had no way to fully investigate until I got home. When I did, I determined it was most likely a loose connection in the harness which was exacerbated by the cold weather overnight.

I will be testing everything in full, in a correct manner, while understanding what I am dealing with over the weekend. And only then a proclamation should be made.

Lastly, a HPFP is not going to fail due to boost. I would expect any basic wrencher to understand this. The differential pressure and increased load on the injectors, and subsequent load on the pump amounts to about 0.3% change. I know they are delicate, but not that delicate.

finally, someone with a pair of balls around here.

[3pete3the5greekI]

damnn!!!! thast the most i have ever red in my whle life...lmao

[335iheLLraiseR]

Originally Posted by 3pete3the5greekI

damnn!!!! thast the most i have ever red in my whle life...lmao

you should of read the one with Shiv Vs Omar from AA a couple of months ago, or the Terry ones, this is nothing compared to those.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR

you should of read the one with Shiv Vs Omar from AA a couple of months ago, or the Terry ones, this is nothing compared to those.

Or, maybe pick up a book from time to time.

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Or, maybe pick up a book from time to time.

A suggestion:

[3pete3the5greekI]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Or, maybe pick up a book from time to time.

nahhh im goodd haha

[335iheLLraiseR]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Or, maybe pick up a book from time to time.

i'm actually reading "i am America" by Stephen Colbert. quite good if you ask me.

[thegeneral101]

I always thought that Terry does his Tuner for himself, just for fun.

Now I have to see that this guy is selling the crap in the "for sale" section. Terry is not a tuner, basicly he has no idea what he is doing !

So all of you who are not that familiar to 335i performance mod's, please read briefly about available products before you install this US$ 65 mod in your US$ 50k car.

Search for PROcede, Xede, Black Box, Turbo Tuner.

Thank you.

Eugen.

I remember when I was first looking at tuning options I read this post (and thread until it was closed because it mentioned terry) from Eugen. I'm not bashing at all, its just good to see Eugen was able to keep an open mind, I think we can all learn from that.

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by 335iheLLraiseR

i'm actually reading "i am America" by Stephen Colbert. quite good if you ask me.

funniest book I have read in a longgggg time.....

[gashero]

The problem here is that most of bmw owner never own turbo car before and get caught up in hearing all those buzz words like boost spike and boost creep, etc. and they get scare, thinking it will destroy their 40+K car. I hope everyone who is new to turbo car read shiv's new thread so we can get him back to producing maps and releasing his product.

[jpsimon]

+100

exactly!

Coming from the subaru world, all of this has been so funny so far.

Originally Posted by gashero

The problem here is that most of bmw owner never own turbo car before and get caught up in hearing all those buzz words like boost spike and boost creep, etc. and they get scare, thinking it will destroy their 40+K car. I hope everyone who is new to turbo car read shiv's new thread so we can get him back to producing maps and releasing his product.

[revah2]

Originally Posted by kyleh4852

funniest book I have read in a longgggg time.....

its an exact replica of the scripts he uses on his show...

[Kerosene Hat]

Originally Posted by remydlc

This does not smell good, m, more from robertrinaustin @ [url]
Look how many questions there are in this forum about Vishnu products and find how many times anyone from Vishnu actually post. Fortunately, there are plenty of helpful people on here, so Vishnu suport comes from its great customers.

I agree this does not sound like good customer service, the business part of me cannot help but wonder if Vishnu makes a conscious decision on this one - you know, expect and exploit the open-source / largely free nature of internet communities to leverage some costly support onto others. If it's intentional, I still don't approve of it, but can see it from a purely cost/benefit business perspective. Which all depends on how much pissed off customers will wreck your future business. If Mazda owners are not the same as Subaru owner are not the same as BMW owners, then...

The less nefarious possibility, of course, is simply rush to innovate or be first to market, taking resources away from execution-related activities (little things, like quality of service, proper inventory, etc).

[stressdoc]

I think I'm just gonna stick to the Brakes and Suspension section... This place is too crazy.

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by Kerosene Hat

The less nefarious possibility, of course, is simply rush to innovate or be first to market, taking resources away from execution-related activities.

"Execution-related activities." Hmm, let me think.

Eureka!:

Neuronal recording and neuroimaging studies have shown that the primary motor area (M1) not only participates in motor execution, but is also engaged during movement preparation. The purpose of the present study was to map the distribution of the preparation- and execution-related activity within the contralateral M1 using functional magnetic resonance imaging. Eleven subjects performed a delayed sequential finger movement task, in which a CUE signal indicated a movement sequence in advance of an imperative GO signal. The hemodynamic response related to the CUE and GO signals decreased in a linear fashion across the central sulcus, with activity greater along the lateral extent compared to the medial extent. This decrease was especially evident in the epoch following the CUE. Our data reveal a pattern of functional organization within M1 related to the preparation and execution of movement sequences.

Put in the proper context it makes perfect sense.

[Kerosene Hat]

Yeah...when a business doesn't execute, their customers feel like they have been executed.

[WilyB]

Originally Posted by gashero

The problem here is that most of bmw owner never own turbo car before and get caught up in hearing all those buzz words like boost spike and boost creep, etc.

My 4th BMW came from the factory with a turbo...

[LambOfGod]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Wow... This forum moves fast. Step away from the computer for a few hours and look what happens. To make a long story short, it appears that Eugen and i had different interpretations of a datalog and opinions on how a turbo engine should be tuned. If its okay with him, I can post up the email exchange from earlier this morning. But only if he gives me permission.

shiv

Ps. There were no 20psi boost spikes involved. It had to so with boost targeting at partial throttle (sub 14psi). Im still a bit confused over it but perhaps others can offer their input.

These guys sound like a bunch of Democrats. What can you expect? Critical thinkers are 1 in a million Shiv. I'm still behind you bro. This is how wars are started.

Catch grip.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

some good info to read...

Boost creep is rising boost due to not enough exhaust bypassing the housing. For example, you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor it, you get a quick rise to 13 or 14 psi. But then as rpm's climb, the boost creeps higher and higher: 14, 15, 16, 17, etc. properly sizing the wastegate hole is one cure for boost creep

Spiking is when your wastegate hole is large enough, but your actuator can is taking too long to fill with compressed air, so you *temporarily* overshoot your boost level. Example: you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor it it quickly rises to 16 psi, but then gradually drops downward towards 13 psi again.

A common problem with modded engines is a combination of spiking AND boost creep. That's where you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor if it overshoots to 16 psi, *begins* to drop back down, but as the rpm's rise it goes up again!

Normal boost rise when set to 13 psi = shoots up to 14, then 13, 13, 13...
Spiking = shoots up to 16, then 15, 14, 13, 13, 13...
Boost creep = shoots up to 14, then 13, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17...
Spiking and boost creep = shoots up to 16, then 15, 14, 13, 14, 15, 16,17...
Set a manual boost control to 11 psi and floor it slowly in high gear. It should go to 11 psi and hold it pretty well. If it starts to slowly climb over 11 psi as the rpm's get high, that's "creeping". The boost creeps higher at high rpm's because there's too much exhaust flow for the wastegate hole to bypass.

Now go to 11 psi again, but tromp on it quickly! It will shoot to 13, or 14, or 15 psi, then drop down to 11 and stay there. That's "spiking".

Spiking is a quick flash of high boost that goes a little beyond your set boost point. If you are set for 11 psi, and you tromp on it quickly, this might happen: boost "spikes" to 14, quickly drops to 11, then slowly "creeps" back to 14 or more as the rpm's climb. Now you are seeing spiking followed by creeping!


Also....


Ambient temperature plays a huge role in how well your engine runs. In general, the cooler ambient temperature, the better your engine runs due to the laws of thermodynamics. The colder air causes your engine to make more HP (more work under the curve with lower temps), therefore more energetic exhaust gases, therefore your car is more prone to boost creep when it is cold out. If you live in an area that does not see colder temperatures (AZ for example) too often, then boost creep may never become a problem.

+10000... Maybe Shiv can chime in on this.

[LambOfGod]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Here's the datalog that Eugen provided me this morning:

Running up the gears at WOT (he has a 6AT):

Partial throttle single gear:


He was dissatisfied with the brief ~0.5-0.75psi boost spike that occurred after shifting in the first graph (at ~66 second timestamp). I explained that this is normal and will always be the case for a number of reason (valve timing changes during upshift, small turbos, automatic throttle closure, etc,.)

In the second graph, he was dissatisfied with the partial-throttle boost behavior, primarily the way the boost ramped up to 13psi by 3000rpm, from 7-8psi at 2300rpm. And then how it ramped back down to 8-9psi above that. I explained that turbos are inherently nonlinear devices and that we can't expect to make a constant boost pressure at a constant throttle angle, as revs increase. Especially when the throttle you induce at the pedal does not equal the amount of throttle opening at the engine (in throttle-by-wire engines). Not to mention the fact that the turbo is a positive feedback device that relies on exhaust energy for motivation. And that exhaust energy will depend on a the pumping efficiency of an engine which differs at different engine speeds.

This is the data that was provided to me. This is how I interpreted it. Eugen did not agree with my conclusion. He informed me that he was going to sell his PROcede and that we did not share the same expectations. That's basically the gist of it. More details will be revealed once/if the actual email exchange between us gets posted up. But I think this should shed some light on the matters at hand. Not nearly as fun as some of the speculation topics. But still interesting from a technical standpoint at least.

Regards,
shiv

PS. For those who don't know how to read the PROcede datalog, here's a quick overview:
X/horizontal axis is time in seconds (s).
Y/vertical axis is logging variable. In the first graph, it is rpm. In the second, it is boost (psi). In the third, it is fuel correction. And so on.
The only two graphs worth looking at here (for the sake of boost control) are the top two (RPM and Boost). Boost target with the v2.0.2 beta map is 11-15psi depending on RPM and gear. The goal with this version of the beta map was to avoid any excessive boost spiking (once the ecu is fully adapted).

Compressed air is hard to control. Eugene is an engineer and should know this even if he is a EE

[Black Chili]

Holy Bloody Hell... Think for yourselves people, it's a computer not a religion.

Believe in the product you have experience with; Vishnu has been responsive and good the only 2 times i've ask for a) support (loose wire, fixed it before they even responded a few hours later) and the pending V2 order from early Sept ("i'll be more than a month"); IMHO not what I wanted to hear, but they were quite responsive in both cases.

That and I love my V1.47. The only limp modes (twice) can definatly be traced back to a single gas station (major brand, but ONLY this station) near my house- only times I went there and happened both times, months apart, it's the gas..

So far faith in the product and Shiv..