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Tracking with heater on.
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08-22-2016, 08:28 PM | #6 |
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Never. But C&R radiator and Setrab oil cooler probably makes it unnecessary.
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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08-22-2016, 11:13 PM | #7 |
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Never because coolant temperature is never an issue just oil temperature.
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08-23-2016, 12:05 PM | #8 |
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Yes, but coolant is the primarily source of cooling, not oil, thus BMW added extra coolant radiator and not an oil radiator on their PPK in addition to faster fan.
I have tuned 335i that I track and oil went from 135* to 130* on 30* ambient temperature after installing extra coolant radiator. |
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08-23-2016, 05:17 PM | #9 |
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@Feuer coolant can only cool as much as its flow rate allows it to. Only so much heat can be wicked from the block as the coolant passes through.
If coolant temps are in check, then dumping heat through the heater core (essentially a second radiator) isn't going to help much since the stock front radiator qwas already sufficiently cooling the water... Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 08:54 AM.. |
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08-23-2016, 08:21 PM | #10 | |
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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08-24-2016, 09:48 AM | #11 |
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Honestly I don't quite understand the obsession of this community with oil coolers, oversized oil coolers especially. I have seen some aftermarket kits for n54 engine with oil coolers bigger than what you have on actual race car. If this was needed BMW would have done it first but instead they opted for additional coolant radiator for larger heat transfer area. Also, oil needs operation temperature from 100* to 115* thus the need for oil thermostat that regulates the flow, from closed to partially open to fully open. On the track when engines runs for 20-30 min then sits for 45-60 waiting on other groups, then runs again, an oversized oil coolers with modified oil thermostats might introduce too much water vapor in the oil system from condensation, and oil containing moisture doesn’t flow or lubricate properly. Should I mention oil pressure drops due to oversized oil coolers? I'm yet to come across some numbers on that.
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08-24-2016, 10:11 AM | #12 | |
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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feuer4282.50 |
08-24-2016, 10:59 AM | #13 |
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got any info on your accusump? I've been considering one to protect against loss of pressure in high speed turns.
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08-24-2016, 11:06 AM | #14 | |
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Pictures here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=214
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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davidwarren189.00 feuer4282.50 |
08-25-2016, 09:27 AM | #15 | ||||
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Documentation supports that BMW has seperated the oil and coolant passages on this engine. The temperatures of the two fluids are not as directly related as on other engines. Previously, n54 platforms cooled oil via an oil to water heat exchanger. Therefore, coolant temperatures did used to play a larger role in lowering oil temps. When BMW upped the power output with the ppk they also had to improve the water cooling as well via an additional radiator and a larger fan as well to help keep temps down in traffic. However, BMW has since reseperated the two cooling functions. Oil cooling is now achieved via an oil to air radiator. Oil is not tied to the water via a heat exchanger anymore. Further, oil and coolant do not cool the same parts of the engine. When you up the power levels, yes, you generate more heat. This heat is almost directly going to cause oil temps to rise. Through conduction, heat from the oil cooled portions of the engine can indeed cause an increase in coolant temps. However, data does not support that the radiator is a bottleneck in engine cooling. The data, and engine design, support that you need better oil cooling which is achieved via the oil cooler. Quote:
As you've stated, tuning for more power increases the amount of heat the engine is producing. Improving the delta of inlet and outlet temps of the radiator will not help improve how much heat can be removed from the engine block via the cooling system. If you were indeed able to shed more heat from high oil temps into the water, then yes, you'd want to also increase the radiator capacity to handle it. To achieve balance with just a larger radiator, you would need to run the electionic water pump faster or switch to distilled water which transfers heat better than coolant. Again, data does not support that the stock coolant system is an issue in the first place (for all but the most hardcore 30min+ track sessions). Yes, there is a place for improved water cooling, but only after you've tackled the engine oil temps which will throw you into limp mode long before the coolant ever gets "too hot." Quote:
Stock thermostat is best. 230f to 260f is an ideal operating range for synthetic oil and engine performance. Bypassing the thermostat, or lowering it's opening point, does nothing but prolong the innevitable failure of the oil cooler to shed the building heat. Quote:
The n55 redesigned the entire oil pickup and delivery system. The pan has a sort of built in bevel and the pump has a deeper pickup area. I haven't seen any posts about oil pressure drops on the n55. The oil delivery imrovements are why I just personally picked up an n55 to track after selling my n52. It's been well documented that oil pressure drop is a non issue when adding larger oil coolers on this platform. The dme compensates and pressure is sufficient. That is a moot point when trying to argue against oil coolers. I'd be more worried about slowing down coolant flow in the cooling system with a larger radiator since the stock underperforming, failure prone, electronic water pump is the real bottleneck when coolant temps become an issue. Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 10:27 AM.. |
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08-25-2016, 10:20 AM | #16 | |||
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Pretty sure no one said otherwise.
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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08-25-2016, 11:57 AM | #17 |
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It occurs to me there might be some confusion over this discussion. From my perspective the cooling system is not an issue until it reaches its cooling limits. So that would mean mass flow can't increase and the thermostat is open all the time with the engine temp exceeding design limits in steady state operation. The only way to resolve the issue is to lower the coolant inlet temp so the fixed temp rise of the engine results in an operating temp lower than before and hopefully within limits. Not possible to do this without increasing the heat exchanger's efficiency and that means more area for convective transfer.
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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08-25-2016, 12:26 PM | #18 | |||||
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08-25-2016, 01:31 PM | #19 | |||
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We cant measure inlet coolant temps at the radiator, but we can measure radiator outlet coolant temps at the water pump. All data indicates coolant temps post radiator don't really increase that much beyond what you see on the street. Therefore, no limp modes due to coolant temps on track like oil. Hence why everyone has an obsession with increasing OIL cooling not coolant. "Cooling System The cooling system of the N55 is enhanced with additional oil cooling. Two different types of oil cooling systems are used depending on the model and application. In the “hot climate” version, heat transfer from the engine oil to the engine coolant is avoided by separating the oil cooler from the engine coolant circuit. The other version uses an auxiliary radiator in combination with an oil to coolant heat exchanger bolted to the oil filter housing. The auxiliary radiator enhances cooling efficiency by adding surface area to the cooling system." Since the 135i manual didn't come with the heat exchanger, that last part about increasing cooling capacity is irrelevant. Automatic cars might benefit from a radiator upgrade though since more heat is indeed being exchange into the coolant. Quote:
As you point out yourself, you can simply dump heat through the heater core if your coolant temps start climbing too high. You effectively already have a second radiator in the car I do agree a dedicated track car could benefit from increased cooling capacity, but not before tackling the oil temperature issue. In opposite effect of what your saying, running a larger oil cooler should also help keep coolant temps down!!! Quote:
Even 215f isn't that much lower than the stock 230f. Hardly worth $180 imo since it basically does nothing. I say this because I don't think ANYONE has a big enough oil cooler in place to keep oil temps below 230f on track... besides, the cars dme is literally designed to operate between 230 and 260. Tons of dme parameters are actively seeking to operate within that range. Again, all opening the thermostat at 215f does it delay the inevitable... Last edited by bNks334; 08-25-2016 at 01:46 PM.. Reason: None |
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08-25-2016, 03:26 PM | #20 | |
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btw, I'm pretty sure I've seen your car at VTR a few times. You definitely did a nice job with the build. Should run fantastic on track. |
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08-25-2016, 04:15 PM | #21 | ||
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On the track the thermostat will open up just above the boiling point of water and essentially increase the ability to cool the oil under hard thirty minute track sessions but I have no illusions that it will manage the temperature at that setting, it can't, so I fully expect higher oil temps than 215F but more easily managed by the DME than they would be without the cooler in 100+F weather. Again, totally irrelevant for a street car.
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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08-25-2016, 04:18 PM | #22 |
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Couldn't be my car, it's never left North Texas.
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2011 E90 328i 6MT, BMW Aero, CF hood/boot, PI+CAI+RM+3IM+BPC, SS+CI528+ThermoTec+SS#1+2XBurns, AKG 75D eng/trans, Al/Delrin diff/RS, CM 850, UCP, CAE, AKG DSSR, DiffsOnline 3.91 30/90 LSD+BW cooler, C&R, Setrab, Accusump, AST 3-way+Swift, Aurora PR+BW spherical, Vorshlag CPs, M3 brace+UR bar, ARC-8 18x8.5, 255 R1R, RB/CSL rotors+cooling, 135i calipers, RS29, RT700, Safecraft, OMP HTE-R+804F+QD Superquadro, 6pt cage+FIA, Braille, RT DL1Mk3
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