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Tracking with heater on.
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09-02-2016, 09:06 AM | #45 | |
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You said it yourself that a lot of the people who assumed their coolant temps were an issue couldnt actually provide any evidence of such. Most of them indeed were seeing reduced power due to brake temps and engine oil temps. There are benefits of ppk for coolant temps. I saw that for myself first hand by running the heater.. What does that have to do with oil temps continuing to rise? My point is that you still need to improve your oil cooling, via the oil cooler, to keep engine oil temps in check... as evidenced by the above discussion. Youre precious ppk 800watt fan does nothing over 20mph... do you not realize that? It helps for those with increased power levels who daily drive their cars in traffic. It's already been explained if you had understood anything that's been said. Please explain to me why I was able to lower engine coolant temps 30f using the heater core yet engine oil temps still rose every time I rev'd the engine out to 6k as I climbed hills... I provided data. Now you provide some contradicting data instead of conjecture. If you can do that then I will absolutely agree with you. Last edited by bNks334; 09-02-2016 at 09:45 AM.. |
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09-02-2016, 09:13 AM | #46 | |
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Oh, btw What makes N52/54/55 so different from any other water cooled engines??? Please enlighten me... I know radiator mods help more than oil cooler from my own experience... I never go over 270F with just a relatively small single core Dinan oil cooler on my FBO 6AT. And I never do any sort of cool down laps until end of each 20-30 mins sessions at all the track events I have done. Never hit limp mode once aside from the one time that my water pump was dying. These things aren't rocket science. If you can't figure out why the coolant system upgrades are just as important as oil cooler, well, I am not going waste my time making this thread any longer. People like you who argues without any good understanding of facts around them is why stupid threads like this exist...
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09-02-2016, 09:33 AM | #47 | |
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09-02-2016, 09:37 AM | #48 | |
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Continue to spread misinformation if that's what you want to believe. Tell people that buying a radiator is going to keep their oil under 270f (engine torque reduction) on track (not a single person has been able to support this with fact). Contact ginger extract and ask him about how his csf radiator failed to keep engine oil temps from rising over 270f on track. I'll stick to what I've gathered from facts and first hand experience that suggests otherwise. I'm just absolutely baffled that a car can run at a perfectly normal operating coolant temperature yet oil could be at 290f and you guys want to argue the radiator is what needs to be upgraded. |
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09-02-2016, 09:42 AM | #49 | ||
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Bigger radiator + bigger oil cooler is bigger than two oil cooler... Why? Because you can shed more heat by fully utilizing both systems. That's misinformation? Lol please, how about you actually answer the questions I raised in my previous reply. If that's too hard for you to understand. You are either just stubborn as hell or just not too bright to begin with.
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09-02-2016, 09:47 AM | #50 | |||
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I don't need to explain it. You can interpret the data for yourself. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...LQG8vUnm_oMdMA That will answer your questions on wat makes the n55 engine design different. Now answer my question why during hard driving I was able to drop coolant temps 30f with the heater core yet oil still hovered right around the same temp. I'm serious. Please provide some kind of explanation because it's throwing a pretty big kink into me wanting to believe a radiator is going to cure oil temps from rising on track. I in fact was able to do so with nothing more than distilled water and a 26 row oil cooler. Quote:
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Specifications Total Volume Stock: 9.5 oz. / Total Volume Dinan: 19 oz. Stock Surface Area: 45 sq./in. / Dinan Surface Area: 67.5 sq./in. Stock Cooling Tubes: 10 / Dinan Cooling Tubes: 23 Stock Tube Length: 90 in. / Dinan Tube Length: 207 in. Stock Tube Area: 112.5 sq./in. / Dinan Tube Area: 414 sq./in. Last edited by bNks334; 09-02-2016 at 10:11 AM.. |
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09-02-2016, 10:17 AM | #51 | |
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2. Define what you mean by "hard driving" and please also the power output of your N55. A stockish N55/54 just fooling around on winding back roads with traffic lights and stop signs are a lot different from a FBO car hauling ass at triple digit speed on a road course for 20-30 mins straight. Think heat soak, air flow, etc. In any case, I don't think you are interested in an intelligent discussion and I don't really have any interests in getting into a piss match with someone like you. So feel free to believe in whatever you want to believe in and answer the above questions with whatever BS you can think of.
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09-02-2016, 10:28 AM | #52 | |
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1. At least on the cars w/ iDrive, the car will tell you whether it is your coolant or something else that is overheating and triggering limp modes. 2. There is no visible warning nor any torque reduction from the car until you hit 300F/148C on N54. You are absolutely wrong about the car can trigger tq reduction at lower temp and I HIGHLY DOUBT N55 is any different in regard to this. http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856 3. Brake related limp is occurs on certain model years. Details of which is still a mystery, but it has something to do with the versions of DSC modules in each car. I know some cars will trigger them even at low speed circuits, some such as mine won't even after setting the dust boots on fire from going balls out at Road America... 4. I didn't spend no where near +$1000 on my oil cooler. I bought it simply because it was a better PnP solution than anything else. Yes, it is significantly larger than stock, but still no where near as the dual setups that a lot of people run. Rather, I used the space on the driver side for the PPK aux. radiator instead. 5. I know local people who overheat and trigger limp mode in their FBO 6AT cars with even larger oil cooler than mine. Same tracks, same cars, but one has larger radiator and one doesn't. You tell me whether or not the radiator doesnt make any difference... 6. You gotta quit twisting my words. All I said you guys need to think about the coolant system as well, instead of just shoving the biggest oil coolers you can find. I never said bigger radiator will be the solution to all of your limp mode problem. On the other hand, you are the guy who tries to preach that oil coolers can solve everything, from eliminating limp mode to curing AIDS.
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09-02-2016, 11:12 AM | #53 | ||||
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Overview (page6): Cylinderhead: •Speciallydesignedwaterpassagesintergradedintothec ylinderheadenhance injectorcooling. VANOS: •TheN55VANOSoilpassagesaresimplifiedcomparedtotheN 54engine. (read further to see how the oil flowing to lubricate VANOS does not transfer as much heat to coolant in its new path. This is the only oil really flowing through the head.) Oilsupply: •Anenhancedandsimplifiedoilcircuitdesignisused. Page 27:OilSupply Thefollowinggraphicsshowanoverviewoftheoilcircuito ftheN55.Comparedtothe N54engine,thereareconsiderablyfeweroilductsinthecy linderhead.Thisismainlydue totheuseofthenewVANOSsolenoidvalves. Page 31: TheN55engineisequippedwithoilspraynozzlesforthepur poseofcoolingthepiston crown.Aspecialtoolisrequiredforpositioningtheoilsp raynozzles. (I quote this one because AUDI and VW tuning almost always increases the flow of these oil sprayers as they also increase power levels. I've never heard a BMW tuner ever mention increasing the pressure of these sprayers on an N55 when tuning...) Page 32:CylinderHead: TherearenownoconnectionsfortheVANOSnon-returnvalvesastheyhavebeen integratedinthesolenoidvalves.Thecylinderheadalsof eaturescoolingpassages nearthefuelinjectors;providingindirectcooling. Page 44: oilpassagesarerequiredandthatthenon-returnvalvesarenolongeronthe cylinderheadbutratherincorporatedintothesolenoidva lvesonN55. Page 75: CoolingSystem ThecoolingsystemoftheN55isenhancedwithadditionaloi lcooling. Twodifferenttypesofoilcoolingsystemsareuseddependi ngonthemodelandapplication.Inthe“hotclimate”versio n,heattransferfromtheengineoiltotheenginecoolantis avoidedbyseparatingtheoilcoolerfromtheenginecoolan tcircuit.Theotherversion usesanauxiliaryradiatorincombinationwithanoiltocoo lantheatexchangerboltedto theoilfilterhousing.Theauxiliaryradiatorenhancesco olingefficiencybyaddingsurface areatothecoolingsystem. (review the picture carefully and realize how taking the "oil to coolant" heat exchanger out of the equation, coupled with the aforementioned changes to oil flow, places more burden on the oil cooler to cool oil rather than shed heat via the cooling system.) Page 78: Note: Ifaseparateoiltoaircoolerisnotinstalled,anauxiliar yradiatorin conjuctionwithanoiltocoolantheatexchangerisusedtoc oolthe engineoil. Page 79: Note: MostcurrentUSvehiclesuseaseparateengineoiltoairhea texchanger tocooltheengineoil(hotclimateversion). Page 80: CoolantPassages Thecoolantpassagesinthecylinderheadarealsousedfori ndirectcoolingofthefuel injectors.Thefollowinggraphicclearlyshowsthattheco olantflowsoverthevalvesand thefuelinjectors,thusreducingtheheattransfertothec omponentstoaminimum. (This infers the coolant passages are being more used as a buffer to protect vital components like injectors from rising heat due to increased engine oil temperatures. The hot climate system is depending on the external oil to air cooler to reduce that heat.) Quote:
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I am FBO pushing 22psi peak with a custom tune from COBB. No oil cooler on this car yet. Quote:
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09-02-2016, 11:27 AM | #54 | |
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- You are NEVER going to replicate the same track environment outside of a road course. - So your car doesn't even have an oil cooler at all??? Lol... Ok man... Just let me repeat myself again, radiator upgrade should be considered along with oil cooler upgrade. Once you factoring the flow rate and deltaT between the inlets and outlets for both oil and coolant, huge ass oil cooler can only do so much if you stay with a stock radiator. But I NEVER did say running these car without any sort of oil cooler is a good idea. - You are just being ridiculous now.
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09-02-2016, 11:29 AM | #55 | ||||
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The correct numbers are actually listed on page 92 of the PDF I posted. you are linking to a thread that quotes the same PDF but specific to the N52 engine. Seems like the entire community is wrong on that one LOL Quote:
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Thanks for keeping me busy on my day off lmao... Last edited by bNks334; 09-02-2016 at 11:41 AM.. |
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09-02-2016, 11:34 AM | #56 |
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Ok, I can barely read your rant now since it is so poorly formatted. But are you agreeing with me on the fact that tq reduction doesn't occur until +300F? While you were saying that happens on +270F. Yeah, radiator isn't gonna do shit if you have no oil cooler at all... But even with just the PPK auxiliary radiator and stock oil cooler, I know and have seen stock power 135is can stay below limp mode temp at Road America in the advance group, as long as it is not +90F ambient temp out there.
Btw, dude, you cant read for shit... The link I cited is clearly for N54. Get off the internet, please...
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09-02-2016, 11:36 AM | #57 | |
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The 128i manual has an oil to water heat exchanger still. In that case, if you had read the thread, I've already conceded that a radiator upgrade might make way for sense for those people (hence BMW's creation of the PPk kit). Their cars do NOT come with the "hot climate" version oil to air cooler. Those without the oil to water heat exchanger (pretty much all of us) would benefit more from an oil cooler upgrade. BMW literally has separated the oil and water cooling jackets/passages. Oil is being used as a cooling agent for the bottom end and coolant is being used the keep the head cool in order to better regulate combustion temperature for efficiency and performance purposes. And now we are just talking in circles because this is all just a rehash of everything I've already pointed out except now you're slowly seeing my point. Seems to me like oil temp issues got worse when BMW mitigated coolant temps issues by removing the oil to water heat exchanger. However, they failed performance drivers by only using a small 10 row oil cooler... Last edited by bNks334; 09-02-2016 at 11:45 AM.. |
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09-02-2016, 11:40 AM | #58 | |
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09-02-2016, 11:40 AM | #59 | |
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Anyway, we are talking in circle because of people like you who can't neither read nor write.
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09-02-2016, 11:41 AM | #60 | |
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http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...8&d=1165592709
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09-02-2016, 11:47 AM | #61 | |
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I have an undersized 10row oil cooler from the factory, which is pretty much the only effective way for an N5x engine to shed heat from the engine oil since BMW moved to the "hot climate" oil to air cooler for US production vehicles. BMW engineers literally said "ok, we can't overburden the cooling system in hot climates by also using it to cool the oil." "Solution: lets further separate the two cooling agents and use a separate oil to air cooler for engine oil." |
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09-02-2016, 11:52 AM | #62 | |
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09-02-2016, 11:59 AM | #63 | ||
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09-02-2016, 12:04 PM | #64 |
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Lmao I mentioned the 128i because it is a living example of BMW's engine design to cool oil using a heat exchanger. The two fluids are being used to cool two different parts of the engine. The heat excahnger used coolant to in turn then cool the oil. As we all know coolant is more effective then oil at transferring heat.
This is all relevant because once you take the heat exchanger out of the equation then you're relying on either NO oil cooling (an auto 128i) or you're relying on the "hot climate" oil to air cooler (the undersized 10 row we are all upgrading). OP asked a question. The answer to that question is that is all depends on what car you're driving. Do you have an N52? N54? N55? Auto? Manual? External oil cooler? Heat exchanger? I pointed this out back on page two before you came along and started taking things out of context assuming that I was telling people not to upgrade their radiators. That variation is probably why everyone has replied to his thread with a different answer. Last edited by bNks334; 09-02-2016 at 12:19 PM.. |
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09-02-2016, 12:05 PM | #65 |
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I obviously meant an upgraded oil cooler. You can clearly see from my sig I have an N55 135i, which is produced with the hot climate package from BMW.
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09-02-2016, 01:29 PM | #66 |
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bNks334 - The oil to water heat exchanger no longer exists, as already pointed out in this thread. US cars are Oil to air cooled now.
The 128i manual has an oil to water heat exchanger still. In that case, if you had read the thread, I've already conceded that a radiator upgrade might make way for sense for those people (hence BMW's creation of the PPk kit). Their cars do NOT come with the "hot climate" version oil to air cooler. Those without the oil to water heat exchanger (pretty much all of us) would benefit more from an oil cooler upgrade. bNks334 - I have an undersized 10row oil cooler from the factory, which is pretty much the only effective way for an N5x engine to shed heat from the engine oil since BMW moved to the "hot climate" oil to air cooler for US production vehicles. BMW engineers literally said "ok, we can't overburden the cooling system in hot climates by also using it to cool the oil." "Solution: lets further separate the two cooling agents and use a separate oil to air cooler for engine oil." "hot climate" ? oil to air cooler for US production vehicles ? All n5x share exactly the same cooling system, in US, EU, AU and everywhere else, period. I have dealt with 335i specifically, in US, EU and even SA but unfortunately the PDF is still in the works for you to read it. Regarding your concern about the coolant temperature "fluctuation" and the oil temperature being somewhat steady, slowly increase or slowly decrease. The oil temperature sensor and the coolant temperature sensor are located on or around the OFH. So in theory if these fluid have similar characteristics they will show similar temperature reading but they are not so they do not and is not because how the engine is constructed internally. Additionally, the thermostats for the oil and coolant are on opposite side, hot vs cool, they open at different temperatures, they have different ranges of fully closed, half open, and fully open, and what the oil system does not have is outlet temperature sensor, what the coolant system has, and is directly linked with the electric water pump that depending on this outlet coolant temperature, plus factoring in RPM and LOAD will either speed up or slow down. No such thing with the oil system and pump. This thread started with HEATHER ON OR OFF so if you missed it in you damn PDF's the additional coolant radiator is hooked up to the coolant lines from the heater core. Without insinuating on what is undersized here if there was not need for extra cooling from coolant BMW would not have put additional coolant radiator regardless of its size, never the less hooked up to the heater core. So inevitable to conclude that using the heater core fan the shred heat works. Ask BMW why they went this route and until you get an answer stop posting nonsense here. |
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