[justpete]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

Right where it should be. The dyno Pete used reads low, I consider Dynojet's with SAE correction to be the standard.

I consider measurement of acceleration to be the standard. Dynos are only a rough approximation of the real world.

To be clear, power is equal to force times velocity (speed actually, since the vectors are parallel) and force equals mass times acceleration. If you know CdA, scaled weight, and air density, and possibly rolling resistance although it's a small error, you can extract instantaneous horsepower from an accelerometer in level full throttle acceleration near peak power rpm.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by justpete

But that's an absolute dyno number and not really all that useful outside of being defined by the loading method used by that particular dyno. DynoDynamics are just load cell dynos and they don't call 'em heartbreakers fer nuthin so my stock dyno at 187hp (I think) isn't a surprise. And that was at ~20K miles from new. Can't really compare baseline numbers at all, can only look at differences and even then they're still not particularly accurate.

I don't disagree. That's why I got a stock baseline on a dyno I've used before. But, I mean, if you take your 187whp as a "real" value, that means that your drivetrain loss would be huge - I just don't buy that it's 20% for an MT. Especially these newer cars, they have super efficient everything. Even the AWD isn't as much of a drag as it's been in the past.

[gunnerxq]

Originally Posted by RyanDavies

I would figure with a 3-stage, 3in exhaust, intake, header, and custom dyno tune, 260whp would not be out of the question. All off the shelf stuff except for the tune / post-header exhaust. Still there's yet more to be gained with a custom header.

Unsure about 2018 plans, but pending time/budget it'll either be just SwainTech coating the AA header (mostly to reduce underhood temps), or having a new one developed.

Give us your gains

[justpete]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't disagree. That's why I got a stock baseline on a dyno I've used before. But, I mean, if you take your 187whp as a "real" value, that means that your drivetrain loss would be huge - I just don't buy that it's 20% for an MT. Especially these newer cars, they have super efficient everything. Even the AWD isn't as much of a drag as it's been in the past.

Yes, it does seem like excessive loss. However, I was able to take the torque curve data from the dyno and compute the 0-60 time which matched the published number pretty closely using stock unladen weight. So with that correlation it seemed reasonable to scale the peak hp to the published stock hp to get the 80% figure and it is what it is, more or less, right or wrong it's just a scaling coefficient to me that encompasses all losses in the dyno setup. This way I have a sanity check back to hp/liter to cross check the dyno measured differences as mod progress.

Clearly there are all sorts of error sources in the 0-60 calcs, etc. but I'm not looking for absolutes so much as indications of where to go next. That the hp measured on the track matches up with that on the dyno to a very close margin is also quite interesting. I haven't seen anyone provide anything similar though.

[hassmaschine]

well, there are other factors on the road too - additional drag of the front wheels, aerodynamics, etc, that don't play a factor on the dyno.

Either way, it's only meaningful if you have a baseline to compare to, and as you say, it's pointless to compare different types of dynos.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

well, there are other factors on the road too - additional drag of the front wheels, aerodynamics, etc, that don't play a factor on the dyno.

Either way, it's only meaningful if you have a baseline to compare to, and as you say, it's pointless to compare different types of dynos.

Exactly. The Race Technology analysis software requires input of the CdA, rolling resistance (used the default as I haven't run a coast down test yet), weight, environmental variables for computing air density (I used a Kestrel NV4000), etc. so these effects are taken into account.

[hassmaschine]

who puts torque in the bottom graph.. lol I take it you're looking for a better shop?

What was it with SAE?

[hassmaschine]

The guys I go to usually just hand me the remote once the car is hooked up and leave me alone. But I've been there a few times..

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

That wasn't my normal shop, but yeah. The dude ran it from 3K up...ok. Ran it with the DTC/TC on...ok...put the torque on the bottom and didn't send me the AFR...ok. And STD correction...uhh....ok.

But it was 248whp/217 with SAE if I remember correctly, but then again it was also throwing on the 4th stage and running pig rich (11.9:1 or so)

AFR , 11.9 on pump gas or E85?

[Kgolf31]

Uhhh.

So let me get this straight on a couple things.

1. Dyno guy ran it from 3k onward. I started my dyno runs at 2k (I know because I was the one actually in the car on the dyno). My equal torque is from 2k to 3k, and increases greatly with my exhaust change. But okay.

2. You ran a blend of E85. Regardless of any changes this will produce better results. I was on 93 pump.

3. IMO you still have a pretty bad dip at 4k. Where as from 3.5 to 4k I have a huge delta increase in torque..

Regardless, I don't really know what you're trying to show...you can finally make similar numbers to a N51 which has less compression...with using E85?

Yay?

[Kgolf31]

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

E85 lost me power, in fact, the whole car was down on power. Look at the AFR printed, it's pig rich reading under 12:1, the car was engaging the 4 stage DISA so power was cut prematurely.

I made almost +20lb-ft of torque compared to you at 3000rpm and literally more power everywhere else.

I was making 221wtq at 4000rpm, compared to 217. Actually, I made more power at every single RPM point on the graph, despite my 'non race exhaust' To be far, the car has a better tune than what you ran, and no catalyst - however it's obviously not running properly.

I had 4th stage DISA too.

You admitted yourself it's incorrect correction. As well, it's a completely different engine at this point. You said SAE was 217 wtq...which would match up with what I had.

Never really admitted that a N51 can compete with a N52 w/proper 3-Stage DISA functionality...cause it shouldn't compression alone should account for power differences, and it clearly shows.

Also, can be debated over and over again, but unless same Dyno same time results are pretty meanless. Can't correct for all factors regardless of what people say, IMO.

Numbers are nice though, no doubting that.


IMO - Comparing numbers should be done via the deltas on both Dynos...Mine was done w/out tune correction (besides maybe some adaptions during driving) and show raw exhaust changes. Even looking at your "baseline" tuned dyno, you're already making more torque than me in my stock exhaust w/muffler delete dyno at ~4250. Can this be fixed with a better tune? Who knows...my car is gone.

However, I saw +12 whp and +11.6 wtq where you saw +12.46 whp and +8.44 wtq. These numbers line up fairly close to each other and if we were to plot a graph of HP and Torque deltas between our own baseline Dynos, they'd probably show up fairly similar.

[RyanDavies]

Less torque than me, slightly more WHP, and I didn't have anything done on the intake side at all (single stage, OEM intake). Meh.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by RyanDavies

Less torque than me, slightly more WHP, and I didn't have anything done on the intake side at all (single stage, OEM intake). Meh.

I don't believe that you're at 250whp with a single stage intake, with more torque. No way.

[dstrickland]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't believe that you're at 250whp with a single stage intake, with more torque. No way.

He probably went to one of the shops that calculates the BHP from the WHP & throws it on the graph.

If he got a tune from a single stage intake that can put down to the wheels what a 330I makes at the crank, that means his tuner has accomplished what no one else in the world has been able to do.

[RyanDavies]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't believe that you're at 250whp with a single stage intake, with more torque. No way.

I (was) at 242/223. The car is back to stock now. I had said that with a custom tune and an intake, I figured 250whp was possible. I still believe that.

Dynojet @ Moore Automotive, SAE. I'm out again, there's no point to this endless circle jerk.

[sosajunior21]

Thanks @TheAxiom for putting this together!!! I'm really new to the enthusiast world so data is important for my learning curve.

There seems to be a lot to unpack, even after immediately dismissing any posts regarding BMS. From a lurker's perspective it kinda looks like Bob and St|G pretty much have/had things figured out for powerful DDs, right?

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by sosajunior21

Thanks @TheAxiom for putting this together!!! I'm really new to the enthusiast world so data is important for my learning curve.

There seems to be a lot to unpack, even after immediately dismissing any posts regarding BMS. From a lurker's perspective it kinda looks like Bob and St|G pretty much have/had things figured out for powerful DDs, right?

End of day what's important to note is that headers and 3 stage provides real gains. Don't look too much into the absolute #'s here as some are STD vs SAE, Mustang vs Dynojet, whp vs bhp, etc. Instead focus on the delta between the baseline #'s and post.

Should you decide to go with 3 stage, you'll need a tune. Else headers, free flowing catback and an 'optimized' stock intake (clean filter, charcoal delete, ram air) should provide decent gains.

[sosajunior21]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

End of day what's important to note is that headers and 3 stage provides real gains. Don't look too much into the absolute #'s here as some are STD vs SAE, Mustang vs Dynojet, whp vs bhp, etc. Instead focus on the delta between the baseline #'s and post.

Should you decide to go with 3 stage, you'll need a tune. Else headers, free flowing catback and an 'optimized' stock intake (clean filter, charcoal delete, ram air) should provide decent gains.

Yeah, the headers, DISA, and tune are what I'm seeing as the main foundation of gains in this car. The insane amount of dynos has turned comparing curves into a huge analytics project for me but that's a totally welcomed feeling on the internet. There's a lot of information out there for ignorant opinions to grow in our small communities... I'll say though, it's cool to actually agree with someone on a forum.

[Dan Bilzerian]

I Want TheAxiom Backkkkkk!!!

[tlow98]

Originally Posted by Dan Bilzerian

I Want TheAxiom Backkkkkk!!!

Same :/

[achilleas_p87]

what map did you use?

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by Dan Bilzerian

I Want TheAxiom Backkkkkk!!!

Me too, he said funny things. Now I need to update my sig.

What did he do again to get banned? No one ever confirmed or linked.