[scalbert]

Originally Posted by e.n335

It hangs on for 1-2 seconds, then it drops.

With the increased load in the higher gear, this may very well be a spike until the duty cycle to the solenoids has dropped. I wonder what it would be if you ran the default, roughly 95% numbers?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by DrDomer

In the idle phase the wastegates default to closed. At least that's what the documentation at the top of the Forced Induction forum says. Technically if the wastegates are closed then all exhaust gases go to the turbine of the turbocharger to build boost (makes sense - less turbo lag). The solenoids actuate the wastegates to open them to bleed exhaust gases and prevent overboost.

Yes, at idle with the engine running, it closes to help efficiency. But if the vacuum lines were removed or with the engine not running, the wastegates would be open.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Tuned335i

I assume everyone with a boost gauge has it installed in the same place, i.e., in the diverter valve (the BMW documentation calls them blow off valves). Is there any way that the spikes in boost could be just what is seen inside the intake piping between the intercooler and the throttle plate because the spring loaded diverter valves are not reacting fast enough, possibly due to the fact that we're running +6-7psi more than a stock engine?

Unfortunately no, the source for the diverter valve lines, where we tapped for the gauge source, comes from the intake manifold. The TMAP sensor, which the PROcede uses, is in the intake tract.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Moggie

During the two bursts on the first log I recorded 17.4 and 16.8 on my boost gauge. I estimated the location of the 17.4 with the red dotted line. You can see that the log is only reporting about 14.5 psi max.

So, the same results here as I witnessed, as expected. Once again, glad to see it is not just me.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Moggie

The second log was when I was trying to provoke a spike by suddenly letting off the gas. Here data log records those very short spikes but my external boost gauge did not.

One other data point. Under very light cruise conditions the data log showed a 0.5 - 0.8 psi boost whilst I was not seeing any boost at all. I don't know what all this means -- I'm just reporting my findings (v2.0.1 default map).

Those throttle lift spikes are normal and nothign to worry about. Since the TMAP sensor is just before the throttle body it will see a quick spike when the throttle closes; just before the bypass valves open. This is not in the manifold so the engine is not seeing this increasewd pressure. Perefectly normal and even something you would see in a stock vehicle; albeit at a lower level.

As for the slight boost being measured in the tinake tract. Variability in the sensors and again, the TMAP being before the TB. No true vacuum is ever seen at the TMAP in the intake tract.

[Orb]

Worth a quick read………335i Engine Managment

If there is a differential pressure before and after the throttle valve the diverter valve will start to open at a 4.35 PSI differential as stated in the document.

orb

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Those throttle lift spikes are normal and nothign to worry about. Since the TMAP sensor is just before the throttle body it will see a quick spike when the throttle closes; just before the bypass valves open. This is not in the manifold so the engine is not seeing this increasewd pressure. Perefectly normal and even something you would see in a stock vehicle; albeit at a lower level.

As for the slight boost being measured in the tinake tract. Variability in the sensors and again, the TMAP being before the TB. No true vacuum is ever seen at the TMAP in the intake tract.

You have an email You too Eugen

shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

You have an email You too Eugen

shiv

Recieved and responded...

[OpenFlash]

Regarding measured/logged boost spike in the 3000-4000rpm area: This is largely caused by two things:

1) a delay in throttle opening (if you log TPS, you'll see it doesn't "snap" open immediately). Instead, the opening is more gradual. This means that for a fraction of a second, the boost pressure in the intercooler tube (where boost is measured) is 1-2psi higher than it is in the intake manifold (what is actually seen by the engine).

2) Dramatic valve/cam timing phase shift. You can see this on the dyno as well (even in a stock car). There is a bump in the torque curve right around 4000rpm. Prior to this point, boost is higher. After this valve timing change, boost drops due to increased pumping/VE efficiency.

...Just wrapping up final docs and map tweaks on v2.0.2.

Shiv

[CanadianTSi]

Your boost gauge should be Installed to read boost at the Intake Manifold ie. exactly what the Engine is actually seeing.

Are you guys that are seeing the spike measuring boost at the IM?

Also a quick spike is just a fact of life with some smaller quick spooling turbos, the wastegate/boost controller simply cannot react fast enough.

[DrDomer]

Originally Posted by CanadianTSi

Also a quick spike is just a fact of life with some smaller quick spooling turbos, the wastegate/boost controller simply cannot react fast enough.

+1

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by CanadianTSi

Are you guys that are seeing the spike measuring boost at the IM?

Also a quick spike is just a fact of life with some smaller quick spooling turbos, the wastegate/boost controller simply cannot react fast enough.

Correct, the external gauges are using a source that is measured in the intake manifold.

I agree, spikes are inevitable to a point. And I am not alarmed by this. We are simply discussing what we are seeing in comparison to others.

[Moggie]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Regarding measured/logged boost spike in the 3000-4000rpm area: This is largely caused by two things:

1) a delay in throttle opening (if you log TPS, you'll see it doesn't "snap" open immediately). Instead, the opening is more gradual. This means that for a fraction of a second, the boost pressure in the intercooler tube (where boost is measured) is 1-2psi higher than it is in the intake manifold (what is actually seen by the engine).

2) Dramatic valve/cam timing phase shift. You can see this on the dyno as well (even in a stock car). There is a bump in the torque curve right around 4000rpm. Prior to this point, boost is higher. After this valve timing change, boost drops due to increased pumping/VE efficiency.

...Just wrapping up final docs and map tweaks on v2.0.2.

Shiv

So what would be considered an abnormally long spike? I've definitely seen pressure reading above 16psi for 2 seconds before droping to the 13-15 range.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Moggie

So what would be considered an abnormally long spike? I've definitely seen pressure reading above 16psi for 2 seconds before droping to the 13-15 range.

The overboost feature, when triggered, will induce an extra 1psi of boost for 1.5 seconds. If the regular boost target is 15 (which it is between 5250-6000rpm), it is possible to see 16psi. But it's pretty rare for overboost to be triggered at that RPM due to the underlying logic. But if you routinely see 16psi for sustained periods of time (over 0.5 sec) then you will need to drop the user TQ values a few 5 in that rpm range.

shiv

[satinghostrider]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Regarding measured/logged boost spike in the 3000-4000rpm area: This is largely caused by two things:

1) a delay in throttle opening (if you log TPS, you'll see it doesn't "snap" open immediately). Instead, the opening is more gradual. This means that for a fraction of a second, the boost pressure in the intercooler tube (where boost is measured) is 1-2psi higher than it is in the intake manifold (what is actually seen by the engine).

2) Dramatic valve/cam timing phase shift. You can see this on the dyno as well (even in a stock car). There is a bump in the torque curve right around 4000rpm. Prior to this point, boost is higher. After this valve timing change, boost drops due to increased pumping/VE efficiency.

...Just wrapping up final docs and map tweaks on v2.0.2.

Shiv

Good on ya Shiv! Cant wait for 2.0.2.

[Moggie]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The overboost feature, when triggered, will induce an extra 1psi of boost for 1.5 seconds. If the regular boost target is 15 (which it is between 5250-6000rpm), it is possible to see 16psi. But it's pretty rare for overboost to be triggered at that RPM due to the underlying logic. But if you routinely see 16psi for sustained periods of time (over 0.5 sec) then you will need to drop the user TQ values a few 5 in that rpm range.

shiv

Thanks for the explanation and the "autoboost" sounds technically cool but to echo Eugen's comment earlier in this thread, I'd rather not have that feature enabled especially when I'd already getting my own form of overboost spikes. Perhaps when this trigger is combined with the intake pressure surge a few of us are seeing it explains the 18.1 psi number I have experienced a couple of times?

I'm not looking for the absolute max power, but rather power that is consistent and useable. As a feature request it would be great to be able to override the overboost trigger when uploading the map. At the very least this would make it easier to validate that the system is working as expected. Then depending on mood, quality of gas we are free to push the envelope a little with the tune -- the user torque settings are a great start in that respect.

Thanks for listening.

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by e.n335

Just catched up with this thread.

To keep it short: If this would not be fixed asap and I will not be able to run stable 11-13psi with V2 on my car ( without any overboost ) I will sell the unit. Word.

@Shiv: I don't like "nifty" 22psi . Such a bug is simply not acceptable. I hope you enjoy your 4 day's off, knowing about the problems of your customers. Unbelievable.

I personally did not see such spikes and I run 2.0.2beta but I don't like to check boost permanently using the boost gauge.

Time for me to call a spade a spade.

- Eugen

Originally Posted by e.n335

Thank you for this information.

Apparently v2.0.1 is having some "issues". It is unbelievable for me that Vishnu does not release immediately a final v2.0.2 map, which is working stable. Shiv knows tuning the 335i and he knows his product. Such a map could exist at least since 2 weeks when Vishnu would be willing to spend the efforts. I like the PROcede V2, I like Vishnu as a company but when they are not willing to fix issues ( I am very confident they can ), the PROcede V2 is the wrong product for me. First quality, then performance.

- Eugen

Originally Posted by e.n335

Some more R&D would help . I expect the PROcede is the "cashcow" of the company. I would take care about it.

Originally Posted by e.n335

See, I always supported Vishnu, did quite some testing and paid exactly the same amount of money as everybody for the V2 solution in total. In addition I paid for reading and clearing error codes stored in the ECU. I communicated them open and quickly to Vishnu.

I like the functionality of the V2 and expected at least a problem-free product. Rolled out conservative, first priority quality, second priority performance.

I am a BMW customer since many years. I am used to get what I pay for and money is not my first priority when I buy something.

Shiv seems to don't get this. He is happy producing power / torque records and satisfied with a 95% finished product. I am not. I still hope he will improve professionality and business behavior. If not, new companies/products are on the horizon which will be alternatives to the V2 and providing what I really want as well as treating their customers better. "You can cancel your order" is not the business behavior I am used and looking for.

- Eugen

First, when your biggest supporter shows signs of jumping ship, you have got issues.

Second, could it be there is a reason why certain companies to be unamed have taken more than 12 months longer to come out with a tune----because they agree with Eugen in that they want to sell "a problem-free product. Rolled out conservative, first priority quality, second priority performance."

[Tuned335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

This means that for a fraction of a second, the boost pressure in the intercooler tube (where boost is measured) is 1-2psi higher than it is in the intake manifold (what is actually seen by the engine).

That's what we were thinking...although the 20psi that some gauges are reading is really strange.

Originally Posted by CanadianTSi

Your boost gauge should be Installed to read boost at the Intake Manifold ie. exactly what the Engine is actually seeing.
Are you guys that are seeing the spike measuring boost at the IM?

No. Everyone is measuring boost in the intercooler tube. Unless someone has drilled and tapped the intake manifold itself, everyone's boost gauges are attached to the vacuum lines coming off the diverter valves which is between the intercooler and the throttle plate. This is not measuring the boost inside the intake manifold itself, but the pressure ahead of the throttle plate. It's not the same thing.

If you don't buy this explanation, just review the diagram in the BMW documentation.

[Tuned335i]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

First, when your biggest supporter shows signs of jumping ship, you have got issues.

Second, could it be there is a reason why certain companies to be unamed have taken more than 12 months longer to come out with a tune----because they agree with Eugen in that they want to sell "a problem-free product. Rolled out conservative, first priority quality, second priority performance."

Sorry, I read your post a couple of times and I don't see what your point is, other than to start an argument maybe, since you're posting we have already read. You're not adding anything constructive to the discussion.

Interesting that you just deleted your last post. Second thoughts maybe?

[mesier1111]

Originally Posted by Tuned335i

Sorry, I read your post a couple of times and I don't see what your point is, other than to start an argument maybe, since you're posting we have already read. You're not adding anything constructive to the discussion.

You right I wasn't, I was letting my frustration with the BS I have been reading over the last 18 months and the flaming I caught every time I tried to point out anything wrong with the Procede or shiv or anything associated with them. Maybe I just see this as vindication for the abuse many of us have taken. But your right, nothing constructive so I will shut-up now.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Tuned335i

That's what we were thinking...although the 20psi that some gauges are reading is really strange.



No. Everyone is measuring boost in the intercooler tube. Unless someone has drilled and tapped the intake manifold itself, everyone's boost gauges are attached to the vacuum lines coming off the diverter valves which is between the intercooler and the throttle plate. This is not measuring the boost inside the intake manifold itself, but the pressure ahead of the throttle plate. It's not the same thing.

If you don't buy this explanation, just review the diagram in the BMW documentation.

To take that one step further. A differential pressure of 4.3 PSI is allowable between the manifold (ahead of the throttle plate) and the intercooler outlet. If we are running 14 PSI boost then we should expect to see spike in 18.3 PSI range at least when you shut the throttle.

Orb

[Tuned335i]

Originally Posted by mesier1111

You right I wasn't, I was letting my frustration with the BS I have been reading over the last 18 months and the flaming I caught every time I tried to point out anything wrong with the Procede or shiv or anything associated with them. Maybe I just see this as vindication for the abuse many of us have taken. But your right, nothing constructive so I will shut-up now.

That's fair - and I respect your reply.

Honestly I think it would be premature and unwise for any vendors introducing new tunes to attack Vishnu on the basis of limp mode codes or other issues reported by nearly 1,000 installed units. I think that's why you don't see anyone from Helix making statements like "we won't introduce a product till it's perfect" - even though people testing their products don't seem to have any problem making those statements...

Better for a vendor to not say anything about a competitor and just let the product's performance speak for itself. And if it's 100% trouble free, the market will find that out soon enough. Lord knows, people on this forum post their problems 2 seconds after they encounter them.

Cheers!