Catless headers performance

blindrooster · 08-19-2016, 09:30 AM

Folks with catless headers installed, what kind of performance are you getting? I've been running AA headers and 3IM with the AA tune for about a month now and ever since I got the headers in I have not been able to take the car above ~120mph. Before I did the headers I had reached ~140mph without any issues.

ESS recently told me that the AA headers are 'unsafe' on the N52 because it prevents the ECU from having correct control over the air/fuel ratio. What do you guys think about that? I've contacted AA to see what their thoughts are, currently waiting for a response.

ZeroSum · 08-19-2016, 09:36 AM

I wonder if by unsafe they mean they cant figure out how to tune with them.

blindrooster · 08-19-2016, 09:40 AM

Direct quote from ESS:

Quote:

Headers like the AA style however simply doesn't work safe/well on the N52. The location of the primary O2 sensors are way off (3ft to far from engine), and adaptation is all over the place as a result. It is not safe on a stock car to run like this and it is extremely unsafe when SC'ed to do this.

Quote:

The ECU does not have correct control of the Air/Fuel ratio as the primary feedback sensors are not positioned where they should.

Taskmaster · 08-19-2016, 09:41 AM

1. Why do you need to go over 120mph?

2. Headers will not reduce your top speed

3. ESS is wrong

4. Run a diagnostic on your car, if there is a issue a tune will not fix it.

Taskmaster · 08-19-2016, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

Direct quote from ESS:

Yeah, what was their excuse for turning a car with catless OEM styler headers? Or European spec headers with longer primary tubes. Clearly the can't tune for shit, and unless AJ himself comes in here and corrects me, I'll continue to assume he's full of shit.

blindrooster · 08-19-2016, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

1. Why do you need to go over 120mph?

2. Headers will not reduce your top speed

3. ESS is wrong

4. Run a diagnostic on your car, if there is a issue a tune will not fix it.

Thanks for the info, good to hear.

For the record, the high speeds is just for fun, and not done on public roads.

Tom Droze · 08-19-2016, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

1. Why do you need to go over 120mph?

2. Headers will not reduce your top speed

3. ESS is wrong

4. Run a diagnostic on your car, if there is a issue a tune will not fix it.

Thanks for the info, good to hear.

For the record, the high speeds is just for fun, and not done on public roads.

Where do you have a private road long enough and straight enough to get a NA 3 series BMW up to 140 MPH? I'd think you would need at least one mile to do it.

Tom Droze · 08-19-2016, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

Folks with catless headers installed, what kind of performance are you getting? I've been running AA headers and 3IM with the AA tune for about a month now and ever since I got the headers in I have not been able to take the car above ~120mph. Before I did the headers I had reached ~140mph without any issues.

ESS recently told me that the AA headers are 'unsafe' on the N52 because it prevents the ECU from having correct control over the air/fuel ratio. What do you guys think about that? I've contacted AA to see what their thoughts are, currently waiting for a response.

It's been clearly demonstrated that ESS and AA have different philosphies with regard to how they tune. Have you considered putting your car on a dyno to see what's up?

blindrooster · 08-19-2016, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Droze

It's been clearly demonstrated that ESS and AA have different philosphies with regard to how they tune. Have you considered putting your car on a dyno to see what's up?

AA suggested the same. I live 30 minutes away from BPC, will probably make a trip out there and let them take a look.

Taskmaster · 08-19-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

AA suggested the same. I live 30 minutes away from BPC, will probably make a trip out there and let them take a look.

I would have done that a LONG time ago.

rjahl · 08-19-2016, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

Direct quote from ESS:

I seem to remember our resident genius, Hassmachine discussing a value/constant for the 02 sensor location.

Could be wrong.

Taskmaster · 08-19-2016, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjahl

I seem to remember our resident genius, Hassmachine discussing a value/constant for the 02 sensor location.

Could be wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

There are delay time settings to account for the distance from the exhaust valve to the O2 sensors. This would certainly need to change on headers, as it would typically be longer/further away - I often wondered if the tuners were addressing these. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't.

O2 feedback is incredibly important on the NG6 platform - the widebands give basically real-time feedback to the fuel control algorithm, which is highly model based, and any discrepancy in the model (such as the distance from the exhaust valve to the O2 sensor), could certainly cause issues like this.

?

rjahl · 08-19-2016, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

?

That's the quote, Thanks for digging it up.

JuniorB · 08-19-2016, 05:21 PM

I hope its not true,but just hearsay, aa has been making quality header and tune for years. I would imagine it would have been addressed if it was an issue,I have a pair going in my e60

hassmaschine · 08-19-2016, 05:22 PM

Yes, a competent tuner should take care of it with headers. ESS is blowing smoke.

JuniorB · 08-19-2016, 07:48 PM

feeling better...

justpete · 08-19-2016, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindrooster

Folks with catless headers installed, what kind of performance are you getting? I've been running AA headers and 3IM with the AA tune for about a month now and ever since I got the headers in I have not been able to take the car above ~120mph. Before I did the headers I had reached ~140mph without any issues.

ESS recently told me that the AA headers are 'unsafe' on the N52 because it prevents the ECU from having correct control over the air/fuel ratio. What do you guys think about that? I've contacted AA to see what their thoughts are, currently waiting for a response.

Supersprint headers, ceramic coated, Kevlar wrapped -- 21rwhp gain, AA off-road tune. AA headers unsafe? lmao at that bullshit

Taskmaster · 08-19-2016, 08:51 PM

SS Headers and AA headers look similar too...hmm. I guess they both are terrible products!

justpete · 08-19-2016, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheAxiom

SS Headers and AA headers look similar too...hmm. I guess they both are terrible products!

Yeah, my engine threw a rod every time I started it. Got kinda expensive after a while...

Mike. · 08-19-2016, 10:08 PM

yeah ess is a joke--along with vishnu

justpete · 08-19-2016, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike.

yeah ess is a joke--along with vishnu

Vishnu is utterly useless, avoid at all costs imho.

rick100 · 08-19-2016, 10:47 PM

I've been running AA headers for around 5 months, no issues so far (knock on wood). I drive the car pretty hard most of the time.

Only complaint I have is the smell ( not inside the cabin)but outside when I was running only secondary cats.

08-19-2016, 09:30 AM	#1
blindrooster Driver 12 Rep 53 Posts Drives: 2009 E90 LCI 328i Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Chapel Hill, NC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2009 BMW 328i [10.00]	Catless headers performance Folks with catless headers installed, what kind of performance are you getting? I've been running AA headers and 3IM with the AA tune for about a month now and ever since I got the headers in I have not been able to take the car above ~120mph. Before I did the headers I had reached ~140mph without any issues. ESS recently told me that the AA headers are 'unsafe' on the N52 because it prevents the ECU from having correct control over the air/fuel ratio. What do you guys think about that? I've contacted AA to see what their thoughts are, currently waiting for a response. Last edited by blindrooster; 08-19-2016 at 10:56 AM..
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08-19-2016, 09:36 AM	#2
ZeroSum First Lieutenant 31 Rep 331 Posts Drives: E90 328i/MR2 Join Date: May 2015 Location: Tennessee iTrader: (0)	I wonder if by unsafe they mean they cant figure out how to tune with them. __________________ 2008 Monaco Blue 328i Sedan / Charcoal Delete / K&N Drop In Filter / RM Intake Boot / AA Tune 1993 MR2
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08-19-2016, 09:41 AM	#4
Taskmaster Banned 2465 Rep 9,004 Posts Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Florida iTrader: (6)	1. Why do you need to go over 120mph? 2. Headers will not reduce your top speed 3. ESS is wrong 4. Run a diagnostic on your car, if there is a issue a tune will not fix it.
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08-19-2016, 05:21 PM	#14
JuniorB Major 185 Rep 1,017 Posts Drives: 07 e60 525 N54 Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Rhode Island iTrader: (0)	I hope its not true,but just hearsay, aa has been making quality header and tune for years. I would imagine it would have been addressed if it was an issue,I have a pair going in my e60
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08-19-2016, 05:22 PM	#15
hassmaschine Major General 3966 Rep 7,215 Posts Drives: "NBO" 330i Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: earth iTrader: (0)	Yes, a competent tuner should take care of it with headers. ESS is blowing smoke.
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08-19-2016, 07:48 PM	#16
JuniorB Major 185 Rep 1,017 Posts Drives: 07 e60 525 N54 Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Rhode Island iTrader: (0)	feeling better...
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08-19-2016, 08:51 PM	#18
Taskmaster Banned 2465 Rep 9,004 Posts Drives: M235i 6MT / E92 328 Msport 6MT Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Florida iTrader: (6)	SS Headers and AA headers look similar too...hmm. I guess they both are terrible products!
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08-19-2016, 10:08 PM	#20
Mike. Mike: Everyone's Pal 2042 Rep 2,972 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: May 2013 Location: Eastern Long Island iTrader: (5) Garage List 2013 BMW 335xi [10.00]	yeah ess is a joke--along with vishnu __________________ Alpine MSS Stage 2+ E30 tune\|MST Intakes\|VRSF Single Mid Pipe\|Agency Power Intercooler\|VTT Full solution crank hub fix
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08-19-2016, 10:47 PM	#22
rick100 Colonel 551 Rep 2,293 Posts Drives: 328 Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: canada iTrader: (0)	I've been running AA headers for around 5 months, no issues so far (knock on wood). I drive the car pretty hard most of the time. Only complaint I have is the smell ( not inside the cabin)but outside when I was running only secondary cats.
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