[justpete]

Subject says it all. Anyone?

[pits200]

Y

[justpete]

Originally Posted by pits200

Y

six, eight, or ten point? Assuming you're running race shells in a gutted interior but maybe not.

[Abax335]

Not in my BMW but my 2000 camaro running a 4 point (rollbar) without rear seats. Haven't installed the harness yet but I will leave the original belt in for inspections.

Little hesitant to install a bar by my head if I move up to a 6 pt

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Abax335

Not in my BMW but my 2000 camaro running a 4 point (rollbar) without rear seats. Haven't installed the harness yet but I will believe the original belt in for inspections.

Little hesitant to install a bar by my head if I move up to a 6 pt

If you're running stock seats, yeah, it'd be a bad idea alright. Even FIA padding won't help in a collision. Is that four point welded in or bolted? Thanks.

[Abax335]

Welded

[justpete]

Nice!

[sirdaft1]

Having a rollcage in a street car is a bad, bad idea.

Exposed steel rollcage tubing will always be the victor when it meets your head/arms/body in a high speed crash. The stock 3 point seatbelt isn't designed to prevent all movement, so you will inevitably shift around in an accident with a a high likelihood of contacting the hard steel tubing.

This a great article written on the subject that explains more:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-safety-facts/

[Abax335]

That's why I'm running a 4 point. The main hoop is set far back enough that it will not contact my head in a collision and provides extra support for the roof collapsing.

Look at the GTS concept coming out. Street car with a roll bar.

[Matto357]

Having a cage in a street car is almost always incredibly dangerous.

The hardest part for most people to understand is that a roll cage is actually part of a system and without the other parts of the system it is actually the opposite of safe.

So unless you are willing to always drive with a helmet, hans device, arm restraints in a proper harness and seat I wouldn't do it.

[mike-y]

My honda had a 6 point cage, race bucket and harnesses. I rarely drove it on the street - mostly to get to and from the track, and the occasional friday to/from work to keep the battery charged.

if this is your daily driver, get a proper race seat and harness to go with the roll bar/cage. But just know that being strapped in with harnesses makes doing other things you don't normally think about a lot harder. Getting into the glove box is impossible, as well as closing the door you left open while you were strapping yourself in, lol.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by mike-y

My honda had a 6 point cage, race bucket and harnesses. I rarely drove it on the street - mostly to get to and from the track, and the occasional friday to/from work to keep the battery charged.

if this is your daily driver, get a proper race seat and harness to go with the roll bar/cage. But just know that being strapped in with harnesses makes doing other things you don't normally think about a lot harder. Getting into the glove box is impossible, as well as closing the door you left open while you were strapping yourself in, lol.

Yes, the plan would be to gut the interior except for the dashboard and the center console as the SRS system and my datalogger need to stay. The cage would be built with a crossbar for the dash and the appropriate panel(s) for the necessary modules that would remain.

Seating would be -- BimmerWorld seat adapter plates, OMP low aluminum side plates modified to use new pyro tensioners and three point anchor screws (new stock), and HTE-R XL seats as low as possible for track use, reuse of three point belts for state inspection, and Schroth six point harnesses using the MS ASM plates.

Cage would include Nascar bars and a full width Wink mirror. Glove box is not used now and the radio would be gone by this point as well leaving nothing but shifter and e-brake to reach once belted in.

Already have everything but the second HTE-R seat and the non-QFP harnesses. Debating on when to do the interior rework. Wouldn't be a daily driver by then but would be street legal so it would be driven a couple times a week or more.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Having a rollcage in a street car is a bad, bad idea.

Exposed steel rollcage tubing will always be the victor when it meets your head/arms/body in a high speed crash. The stock 3 point seatbelt isn't designed to prevent all movement, so you will inevitably shift around in an accident with a a high likelihood of contacting the hard steel tubing.

This a great article written on the subject that explains more:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-safety-facts/

Agreed, you're absolutely right and I'm familiar with the article cited. Curious how others are "getting away" with it. I know some in the area here do so on a regular basis but don't really know many details.

One thing that helps is to run a halo seat at racecar height which puts your head a longer way from the cage. But it's a useless thing to do if using the three point only, gotta use a six point harness in conjunction with the seat and the cage to attain a modicum of safety. High speed crashes are fairly unlikely events if not driving in congested areas or daily rush hour traffic, neither of which is a concern in this instance.

Is it uncomfortable? Oh hell yes, especially with Nascar bars that aren't widened out since the doors can't be totally gutted, windows are still needed for street use. A real pita to get in and out of so it's not like it's a grocery getter.

If I do have the work done it'll be a fairly short time before it becomes a dedicated track/race car so it won't spend a heckuva lotta time on the street. Not like that makes a real difference, an accident can occur any time of course. But it's possible to minimize exposure anyway.

[feuer]

I don't understand why a roll cage would be more dangerous in a street car if driver is not wearing a helmet?
If the roll cage is behind the seats and is designed to protect mostly form massive roll over what is the issue?
Does not the 911 GT3 RS come with roll bar from the factory? Yes, and is a street car that you can legally drive with out a helmet.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by feuer

I don't understand why a roll cage would be more dangerous in a street car if driver is not wearing a helmet?
If the roll cage is behind the seats and is designed to protect mostly form massive roll over what is the issue?
Does not the 911 GT3 RS come with roll bar from the factory? Yes, and is a street car that you can legally drive with out a helmet.

Yeah, roll bar isn't as much of a problem as a cage. Turns out running racing shells without a roll bar or cage wasn't a safety issue, per se...

Had a long talk with the local chapter of BMWCCA's head instructor this morning after emailing about all this stuff. Asked if I showed up with race shells and six point harnesses but no roll bar or cage would I be allowed to run. In the past every single instructor has said hell no.

But the answer today turned on who installed the seats and harnesses. Told him Classic's race team does all the work on my car and his answer was, oh never mind then you're good to go, or words to that effect. He runs race shells and six point harnesses in his e30 M3 without a roll bar or cage. It's all about correct and safe installation adn it's the instructors who don't ask about the installation so next time somebody balks he said to tell him and he'd find me someone else.

The Drivers Edge school replied that they didn't have a problem with it but then they know who built the car, too. Waiting on an answer from Apex and NASA before putting the seats in. Running halo seats on the street oughta be interesting though...

[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by justpete

Yeah, roll bar isn't as much of a problem as a cage. Turns out running racing shells without a roll bar or cage wasn't a safety issue, per se...

Had a long talk with the local chapter of BMWCCA's head instructor this morning after emailing about all this stuff. Asked if I showed up with race shells and six point harnesses but no roll bar or cage would I be allowed to run. In the past every single instructor has said hell no.

But the answer today turned on who installed the seats and harnesses. Told him Classic's race team does all the work on my car and his answer was, oh never mind then you're good to go, or words to that effect. He runs race shells and six point harnesses in his e30 M3 without a roll bar or cage. It's all about correct and safe installation adn it's the instructors who don't ask about the installation so next time somebody balks he said to tell him and he'd find me someone else.

The Drivers Edge school replied that they didn't have a problem with it but then they know who built the car, too. Waiting on an answer from Apex and NASA before putting the seats in. Running halo seats on the street oughta be interesting though...

Very interesting. Just keep in mind that a rolled car and crushed roof would come down straight on your head. With a six point and a race seat, your head cannot move and your neck will take the full force. Definitely surprising that you would get a green light!

And if I could contribute my $.02, we run an OMP RS PT2 halo race seat in our e30 track car and we LOVE it. The halo isn't so big that you can't look around and its some of the best bang for your buck value buys when it comes to a full composite, halo race seat.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Very interesting. Just keep in mind that a rolled car and crushed roof would come down straight on your head. With a six point and a race seat, your head cannot move and your neck will take the full force. Definitely surprising that you would get a green light!

And if I could contribute my $.02, we run an OMP RS PT2 halo race seat in our e30 track car and we LOVE it. The halo isn't so big that you can't look around and its some of the best bang for your buck value buys when it comes to a full composite, halo race seat.

You're right, no question, and it's the argument made to not run this way on the track but a rollover is really unlikely so it's a calculated risk I'm willing to take, if allowed. I was surprised as well to learn the only reason it wasn't being allowed by instructors was essentially installation unknowns. OTOH, I did have that one instructor who wouldn't even use the Quick Fit Pro and he was driving a GT3 RS with roll bar.

Those are nice seats but I already have one HTE-R and about to get the second one so we'll see how it turns out.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by justpete

You're right, no question, and it's the argument made to not run this way on the track but a rollover is really unlikely so it's a calculated risk I'm willing to take, if allowed. I was surprised as well to learn the only reason it wasn't being allowed by instructors was essentially installation unknowns. OTOH, I did have that one instructor who wouldn't even use the Quick Fit Pro and he was driving a GT3 RS with roll bar.

Those are nice seats but I already have one HTE-R and about to get the second one so we'll see how it turns out.

I'd really really caution you against this attitude. Modern race/track car safety is a system, seats, bar/cage, belts/harness, helmet, HANS device, neck collar etc. You leave anything out and you are asking for trouble or worse.

For example just seats and race harness/belts. These hold you in much tighter than a stock belt, no slack, your body cannot move forward/side in a collision but your head will, often with bad results esp with a heavy helmet on. I have 3 fused vertebrae in my neck as a testament to this, after a bad crash in practice one time. Old BMW 2002 ITB car, modern seats + belts, old bars, no HANS device or neck collar, full face helmet.

I have seen two people killed on track, right in front of me in separate incidents. Once was at a drivers school, guy in a supercharged mustang passes me main straight, then his brakes failed going into turn 1, shitty/no safety equipment, DOA right on track. Medevac helo landed right in front of my car on the main straight (event was immed. red flagged), then they waved it off, he was toast. Other was at a vintage race at the corner I was flagging. Old Chevron car went into the trees, cut in half, inadequate roll cage, no side bars etc. Guy never made it, died right there in the trees.

I ran a '91 Miata for years at HPDE, aftermarket roll bar that did not go over the top of my helmet but it "passed" tech. Dodged a bullet on that thank god never rolled tho came close a few times, I'd be dead for sure. Caught up with me on the 2002 though. Now my head is held on with bone grafts, titanium wire, plates and screws. I will have lifelong neurological issues but none severe (so far) thank goodness.

Spend the money and do it right. It is often better to leave the entire factory systems intact (seats, belts, airbags etc.) rather than hybrid. You maybe won't get a second chance. JMHO.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

I'd really really caution you against this attitude. Modern race/track car safety is a system, seats, bar/cage, belts/harness, helmet, HANS device, neck collar etc. You leave anything out and you are asking for trouble or worse.

For example just seats and race harness/belts. These hold you in much tighter than a stock belt, no slack, your body cannot move forward/side in a collision but your head will, often with bad results esp with a heavy helmet on. I have 3 fused vertebrae in my neck as a testament to this, after a bad crash in practice one time. Old BMW 2002 ITB car, modern seats + belts, old bars, no HANS device or neck collar, full face helmet.

I have seen two people killed on track, right in front of me in separate incidents. Once was at a drivers school, guy in a supercharged mustang passes me main straight, then his brakes failed going into turn 1, shitty/no safety equipment, DOA right on track. Medevac helo landed right in front of my car on the main straight (event was immed. red flagged), then they waved it off, he was toast. Other was at a vintage race at the corner I was flagging. Old Chevron car went into the trees, cut in half, inadequate roll cage, no side bars etc. Guy never made it, died right there in the trees.

I ran a '91 Miata for years at HPDE, aftermarket roll bar that did not go over the top of my helmet but it "passed" tech. Dodged a bullet on that thank god never rolled tho came close a few times, I'd be dead for sure. Caught up with me on the 2002 though. Now my head is held on with bone grafts, titanium wire, plates and screws. I will have lifelong neurological issues but none severe (so far) thank goodness.

Spend the money and do it right. It is often better to leave the entire factory systems intact (seats, belts, airbags etc.) rather than hybrid. You maybe won't get a second chance. JMHO.

I understand and appreciate your concern, I truly do, thanks.

Here's the deal, I only run two tracks, Motorsports Ranch in Cresson, TX and Eagles Canyon Raceway in Decatur. Both have zero trees on the property, nor do they have any barriers of any sort. ECR has a wall long the front straight but it's impossible to hit coming out of the hairpin unless suffering multiple system failures. Then again speed is quite slow so it's hardly a concern.

I'm not driving competitively so it's much easier to just slow down and avoid the red mist than risk injury. I've also gone off enough now that not turning the wheel straight isn't a concern and I've dropped wheels enough times to have learned what happens when attempting to steer back onto the track immediately. At least I caught it before going off the other side. Likelihood of rolling the car by making a novice mistake is really quite low. And the ground at these tracks is quite flat so rolling the car is unlikely unless it's been raining recently and the ground is muddy.

Another aspect of driving this car is that all the work on the car and I mean all the work is done by the car chief and the team tech for the Classic BMW Motorsports race team out of the Classic BMW dealership. It's a serious team with a serious driver, they really do know what they're doing. Hmmm, well I do change rotors and pads but that's pretty much it since I leave the suspension setup at the track alignment witness marks.

My car is also not an overpowered undersuspensioned car like so many I see at the track. It's difficult to get into trouble with it, which was the whole point. And I've suffered complete brake failure at 100mph into a corner entry which was a tad exciting but manageable with downshifting. I won't be moving up to higher horsepower with this car until it makes the conversion to a full-up race car with a tuned S54, widebody conversion, and gutted interior with an eight point cage. That's at least a year or two away.

BTW, at these two tracks car to car contact is unheard of in HPDEs and the two driving schools operating there. No flag station has ever been hit, nobody even remembers anyone going into the few tire walls there are, located a helluva long way from the track in both instances.

Oh, and the intent of going to race seats with a six point harness is to use a HANS. It'll work with the Quick Fit Pro if and only if the anti-sub straps are used to hold the lap belt down so the shoulder straps can be tightened sufficiently. The seats are halo types so the neck is fully protected. Here's the actual seat: http://www.ompamerica.com/product_in...roducts_id/645

This isn't a matter of money, the $20K to gut the interior and build a proper cage, etc. is no big deal but it's not something I want to do right now. Next off-season though...

[justpete]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

I'd really really caution you against this attitude. Modern race/track car safety is a system, seats, bar/cage, belts/harness, helmet, HANS device, neck collar etc. You leave anything out and you are asking for trouble or worse.

For example just seats and race harness/belts. These hold you in much tighter than a stock belt, no slack, your body cannot move forward/side in a collision but your head will, often with bad results esp with a heavy helmet on. I have 3 fused vertebrae in my neck as a testament to this, after a bad crash in practice one time. Old BMW 2002 ITB car, modern seats + belts, old bars, no HANS device or neck collar, full face helmet.

I have seen two people killed on track, right in front of me in separate incidents. Once was at a drivers school, guy in a supercharged mustang passes me main straight, then his brakes failed going into turn 1, shitty/no safety equipment, DOA right on track. Medevac helo landed right in front of my car on the main straight (event was immed. red flagged), then they waved it off, he was toast. Other was at a vintage race at the corner I was flagging. Old Chevron car went into the trees, cut in half, inadequate roll cage, no side bars etc. Guy never made it, died right there in the trees.

I ran a '91 Miata for years at HPDE, aftermarket roll bar that did not go over the top of my helmet but it "passed" tech. Dodged a bullet on that thank god never rolled tho came close a few times, I'd be dead for sure. Caught up with me on the 2002 though. Now my head is held on with bone grafts, titanium wire, plates and screws. I will have lifelong neurological issues but none severe (so far) thank goodness.

Spend the money and do it right. It is often better to leave the entire factory systems intact (seats, belts, airbags etc.) rather than hybrid. You maybe won't get a second chance. JMHO.

Just so you know, here's some pictures of the cage in a 135i the shop built to take passengers around the track during their private by-invitation trackdays. I'm told my cage would be nearly the same when we do it.

I should've taken pictures of the shell last time I was there but didn't occur to me. They got this thing built in no time swapping in stuff from a donor car. Funniest thing is the radio looks like it's there but they took it over to the bandsaw and cut off the bulk of it. Didn't get picture cuz I was laughing too much.

The HTE-R XL seats sit a bit too high so they're drilling lower holes for the rear of the seat in the OMP low alumininum side mounts. And they use the VAC floor adapters instead of the BimmerWorld parts I have on hand for my car.

Turns out there's a roll bar built into the B-pillar, it's oval and buried in the sheet metal. News to me, was news to the shop as well, had never dug in far enough to see it. Kinda cool.

So here's a bunch of pictures of the cage, etc. The Nascar bars are out a lot more than usual to make it easier for people to get in and out of the car. And the doors retain their structural elements, their race cars are a shell with absolutely nothing left. We talked about using FIA bars on my cage and cutting the door panels to clear them thus leaving side the armrests with the controls for the windows. Might be a problem with elbow room but it sounds like a nice compromise.

Note they use both a triangle net and a square net. There will be another triangle net in the middle and a square net on the passenger side. So they don't need arm restraints.



Nicely executed blocking panel to the trunk



Just the triangle net and its quick disconnect



Where the triangle net anchors, top one is hidden though in this view



A view of the interior floor



Where the front downtubes come through to the floor requiring only the end caps of the dash to be removed, no holes needing to punched in the dash



And the dash which is attached to a welded in crossbar in the cage with some module mounting panels relocated and the stock steering column support structure left intact



A closeup of where the Nascar bar comes through the door jamb



A better view of the Nascar bar



A better view of the roll bar cross bracing and harness bar



A better view of the whole Nascar bar structure through the door jamb

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by ajsalida

I'd really really caution you against this attitude. Modern race/track car safety is a system, seats, bar/cage, belts/harness, helmet, HANS device, neck collar etc. You leave anything out and you are asking for trouble or worse.

For example just seats and race harness/belts. These hold you in much tighter than a stock belt, no slack, your body cannot move forward/side in a collision but your head will, often with bad results esp with a heavy helmet on. I have 3 fused vertebrae in my neck as a testament to this, after a bad crash in practice one time. Old BMW 2002 ITB car, modern seats + belts, old bars, no HANS device or neck collar, full face helmet.

I have seen two people killed on track, right in front of me in separate incidents. Once was at a drivers school, guy in a supercharged mustang passes me main straight, then his brakes failed going into turn 1, shitty/no safety equipment, DOA right on track. Medevac helo landed right in front of my car on the main straight (event was immed. red flagged), then they waved it off, he was toast. Other was at a vintage race at the corner I was flagging. Old Chevron car went into the trees, cut in half, inadequate roll cage, no side bars etc. Guy never made it, died right there in the trees.

I ran a '91 Miata for years at HPDE, aftermarket roll bar that did not go over the top of my helmet but it "passed" tech. Dodged a bullet on that thank god never rolled tho came close a few times, I'd be dead for sure. Caught up with me on the 2002 though. Now my head is held on with bone grafts, titanium wire, plates and screws. I will have lifelong neurological issues but none severe (so far) thank goodness.

Spend the money and do it right. It is often better to leave the entire factory systems intact (seats, belts, airbags etc.) rather than hybrid. You maybe won't get a second chance. JMHO.

Thanks for the info. What's your opinion on running an HANS device with this http://store.bimmerworld.com/mobile/...ess-p1125.aspx

[justpete]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Thanks for the info. What's your opinion on running an HANS device with this http://store.bimmerworld.com/mobile/...ess-p1125.aspx

That's the harness I have in the car but they don't work very well with a HANS because you can't pull the shoulder straps tight enough without the lap belt riding up. But the anti-submarine straps work with it so it's possible to effectively use a HANS if using them. That's the plan anyway.