[justpete]

Originally Posted by aleckzandr

When you get hooked just consider it to be about half of your paycheck. Doesn't matter how big your paycheck is, the bigger the paycheck, the more go-go juice you burn and the more you wear out the round black sticky things on your wheels and the toys get more and more expensive. The rest of the money is for race entry fees, shelter, and food like stuff. If you are lucky, a divorce doesn't keep you off the track too much.

Freakin' nailed it, he did.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by vwetish

That's too much! It should cost roughly 1/2 of that including keeping up with the car tear and wear from the events.

I (and a few fellow track junkies) used to tally up our expenses throughout the year and came to that conclusion. It isn't for the faint of heart and it isn't cheap, especially if you start doing it on any sort of consistent and regular basis.

For example, the tires. On average a full set of R-Comps last me about a year and a half. That's about $1,600 for up to 10 days if I'm pussy-footing it. Brake pads another $500. If it's a 1 day event, you're looking at potential lodging for the day before and the day after, and if it's at a more respectable place like, oh, Sears? That's $300 just on hotel cost alone. I don't know where you live, I live in So. Cal where I have access to up to 4 local tracks within 2.5 hours drive. Unless you happen to live near a bunch of great tracks, cost of lodging adds up. Cost of fuel adds up. Cost of mechanic's time and other consumables add up.

We looked at our spending over the course of about 3 years and was shocked to find that it averages out to be about $500 a day and $1,000 per weekend. At one point I spent close to $10,000 a year attending various track events (that's considering 4 out of the 11 events I didn't have to get a hotel room for). Even today when my track time is paid for by risking my life as counter weight in the passenger seat in exchange for 3-5 sessions a day, my COST per day/weekend is still around $200.

My old co-worker is an avid golfer and at one time an avid track enthusiast. The other day he dropped off his track wheels and tires for me because he's "giving up" going to the track regularly. When I asked him why, he said he couldn't keep up "both golf AND track," so he chose the cheaper of the two hobbies.

Could the cost of tracking be less? Sure. if you don't mind driving on cheap all season tires on track. If you don't mind sharing rooms to cut cost. If you have access to do all the work required on the car to keep it running in tip-top shape (or get a wreck-me-otter to keep cost of consumables down). If you don't mind paying the lowest cost organization and risk running with a bunch of yahoos in their 20 year old CRX on questionable equipment and skill level because they all have the same "idea" about the lowest cost of tracking (believe you me, we have our shares of $99 per day orgs out here to). We also did some relative comparison of the learning curve at a organization that simply provides you track time vs. organizations that insist on making track days an educational event, and I've noticed it takes about 3X more seat time at a track only event to get up to the same speed you would from 1 day with a coach/instructor in the passenger seat, and the coached even usually cost only about 2X that of the track only events...etc.

Hence I came to the conclusion that it cost, on average, $500 a day, $1,000 a weekend, period. The cost of simply tracking is actually shockingly consistent across country/region/skill level.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by aleckzandr

When you get hooked just consider it to be about half of your paycheck. Doesn't matter how big your paycheck is, the bigger the paycheck, the more go-go juice you burn and the more you wear out the round black sticky things on your wheels and the toys get more and more expensive. The rest of the money is for race entry fees, shelter, and food like stuff. If you are lucky, a divorce doesn't keep you off the track too much.

Truth.

[vwetish]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Hence I came to the conclusion that it cost, on average, $500 a day, $1,000 a weekend, period. The cost of simply tracking is actually shockingly consistent across country/region/skill level.

Since 2010 I do up to 10 track days per year. Very modest, mostly due to lack of time. In my home country I was doing hill climbing. Switched from fwd VW to BMW just so I can master the rwd. Anyhow, honestly, at $500 per day I wouldn't be able to afford not even one single event. True, you can spend $500 per day and some I'm sure spend even $5k. We aren't those people thus we are replying to this tread.
Few things I disagree with you:
#1 After over 1.5 million professionally driven miles I can tell you that I have seen a lot more yahoos as you call them on the hwy than on the track.
#2 Another thing, you don't have to have R compound tires. I don't. Last year I bought my PSS used, $420 installed with no more than 60% life left. My car is DD I did 5 events on them and planing on doing 1 to 2 events this year on them.
#3 Brakes. I use over sized BMW brakes, on OEM pads, ATE fluid and stainless lines, nothing spectacular.
#4 I don't want to offend you on personal level, since you have stated that you are instructor,but I must bring to your attention that even people that don't know how to drive could be instructors.
#5 The time it takes for some one to improve their skills is impacted by the organization but not by a lot like you make it sound to be. If this was the case when someone can't learn we can't blame it solely on the instructors! Do you agree?
If that was like that a lot more of us would make the cut to become professional race car drivers. Skills development depends more on the individuals talent and enthusiasm to explore it.
If in your career you haven't come a cross a driver that can lap the instructors and their first time on the track and on top of that in unfamiliar car, I certainly have.
Mostly, all upgrades on my car are completely voluntary. If one can, then go, by all means, spend lavishly on you car, but you certainly don't have to.
So the conclusion is that your experience is different than mine.
Myself on average spend around $200 per event.

[vwetish]

Originally Posted by dinanm3atl

Will echo some with track it stock. To start you should have no problem for your very first event. Then do brake upgrades(pads/fluid). You will learn a lot in the beginning as speeds increase.

Do not need coilovers, BBK, tunes and the like to track your car. Learning is more important which comes from seat time.

Very good advice. That is exactly how I started.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by vwetish

#1 After over 1.5 million professionally driven miles I can tell you that I have seen a lot more yahoos as you call them on the hwy than on the track.
#2 Another thing, you don't have to have R compound tires. I don't. Last year I bought my PSS used, $420 installed with no more than 60% life left. My car is DD I did 5 events on them and planing on doing 1 to 2 events this year on them.
#3 Brakes. I use over sized BMW brakes, on OEM pads, ATE fluid and stainless lines, nothing spectacular.
#4 I don't want to offend you on personal level, since you have stated that you are instructor, I must bring to your attention that even people that don't know how to drive could be instructors

The real costs aren't all that obvious and yes it's very easy to get by for much less. A BMWCCA HPDE weekend with instructor is over three hundred bucks around here. I have to drive home each day to take care of my wife so that's nearly 500mi over the weekend with two tanks of gas that comes to a hundred bucks or so. Only other expense is lunch each day. So that's about half of the $500/day figure. But it doesn't take into account wrenching costs.

NASA HPDEs cost about the same but the tech inspection isn't free like it is at the dealership so there's another $75 since there's only one shop in town authorized to do the tech inspection. And that track is also a 500mi/weekend distance.

Running Toyo R1Rs with a track alignment I get 7K miles out of a set since I generally don't bother to adjust it back to the street settings between track events. That adds up when adding in the shipping, & mounting and balance. One local driving school is $225/day with instructor which is even more expensive. The open trackdays at a couple of local tracks are $150/day last time I checked.

Even with XP10 pads and Torque fluid the pads last a long time so the cost really isn't a kicker although the fluid is a bit painful at each flush but that's only twice a year so it's not a big portion of the expense.

I've seen a lot of yahoos on the track, many of whom were indeed dangerous to themselves and others. And not at just one event but at most. Can't imagine what open trackdays must be like, not something I'm interested in trying yet.

However. The costs of turning a perfectly nice 328i into a streetable (sorta) track car when amortized over the entire number of track days in the next ten years just might keep costs to about $500/day. But with more to come that ain't gonna happen. Still, it's one point on a spectrum and all I started spending was event cost and gas. Unfortunately crack is less addictive. Dammit.

Mind you I'm not arguing with you or anyone, just trying to point out how easy it is to blow past $500/day and not even know it, or more precisely not even admit denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[3002 tii]

Average cost per weekend:

$350 registration for weekend (2 days)
Fill up 1.5x/day so call it $60 x 2 = $120
$100/nt for hotel = $200
$10 tolls round trip
2 fill ups for round trip = $120
$40/day on food = $80
$160 per event for HPDE insurance
So that's $1040/weekend WITHOUT factoring in wear & tear

Entire season (6 weekends or approx. 10 days) I will go through:

1 set of tires at $800
2 full brake flushes = 4 bottles = $80
1 set front brake pads = $350
1 set rear brake pads = $200
2 oil changes = $120
Total cost in consumables = $1550 or about $260/weekend

$1040 + $260 = $1300/weekend. DAMN that's a lot more than I thought lol.

[vwetish]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Average cost per weekend:

$350 registration for weekend (2 days)
Fill up 1.5x/day so call it $60 x 2 = $120
$100/nt for hotel = $200
$10 tolls round trip
2 fill ups for round trip = $120
$40/day on food = $80
$160 per event for HPDE insurance
So that's $1040/weekend WITHOUT factoring in wear & tear

Entire season (6 weekends or approx. 10 days) I will go through:

1 set of tires at $800
2 full brake flushes = 4 bottles = $80
1 set front brake pads = $350
1 set rear brake pads = $200
2 oil changes = $120
Total cost in consumables = $1550 or about $260/weekend

$1040 + $260 = $1300/weekend. DAMN that's a lot more than I thought lol.

wow, I can't even think of what I would be doing on weekends if I can afford those amounts

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by vwetish

wow, I can't even think of what I would be doing on weekends if I can afford those amounts

Eh, most here probably spend that same amount on 1 nice vacation per year. Guess we all make concessions in some form or another. This is the best vacation I could ask for.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Eh, most here probably spend that same amount on 1 nice vacation per year. Guess we all make concessions in some form or another. This is the best vacation I could ask for.

Wait, what's a vacation...?

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by justpete

Wait, what's a vacation...?

I will say this though, the ultimate cost isn't what you pay out in registration, parts, etc... it's the potential cost of wrecking your car. Don't track something you can't walk away from, else get the insurance.

My track car has been paid off for a while but I would STILL be devastated if I ever wrecked it. Cash won't bring her back to life and I probably wouldn't even replace it but it'll make me feel a lot better than getting nothing back.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

I will say this though, the ultimate cost isn't what you pay out in registration, parts, etc... it's the potential cost of wrecking your car. Don't track something you can't walk away from, else get the insurance.

My track car has been paid off for a while but I would STILL be devastated if I ever wrecked it. Cash won't bring her back to life and I probably wouldn't even replace it but it'll make me feel a lot better than getting nothing back.

Good point. Haven't used track insurance yet. Denial ya know. And I don't drive at ten tenths as an off isn't acceptable, it's my daily. But it would seriously suck to rebuild it should worse come to worse although I definitely would.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

I will say this though, the ultimate cost isn't what you pay out in registration, parts, etc... it's the potential cost of wrecking your car. Don't track something you can't walk away from, else get the insurance.

My track car has been paid off for a while but I would STILL be devastated if I ever wrecked it. Cash won't bring her back to life and I probably wouldn't even replace it but it'll make me feel a lot better than getting nothing back.

Oh yeah, forgot that when I looked at track insurance the max amount covered was too low and the policy cost too high. Should probably revisit that to cover typical potential damage instead of a total loss. Thanks for bringing this up.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by justpete

Good point. Haven't used track insurance yet. Denial ya know. And I don't drive at ten tenths as an off isn't acceptable, it's my daily. But it would seriously suck to rebuild it should worse come to worse although I definitely would.

Initially I didn't find the need for it neither, especially in the beginner groups. I always felt safe in NASA especially when paired with a good instructor.

However, that all changed as I got solo'd and started running intermediate. I find the intermediate groups have a lot of drivers who feel the need to prove something. Not quite advanced/instructor level but still looking to cut down their times at the expense of sound judgment. Also it was at this point I started trying out other clubs in my search for 'best bang for buck' and you'd be surprised how poorly run certain clubs are but you don't find out till you try it once. Some groups let anyone and everyone run in any group they choose and safety just doesn't seem a high priority. It was then I began purchasing DE insurance (and became more selective in choosing which club to run with).

Now that I'm in advanced, although run groups tend to be more predictable, driving without insurance almost feels like driving w/o a seatbelt. I've become so used to the financial safety net that I almost don't feel comfortable pushing the car past 8/10ths unless I know I'm 'covered'. And anything less than 8/10ths on a good dry weather day almost seems like parade laps.

I compare DE insurance to seat belts but obviously it's not the same. In fact, I feel 'naked' getting into a car without a rollbar/6pt/HANS but you get the point about insurance.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by 3002 tii

Initially I didn't find the need for it neither, especially in the beginner groups. I always felt safe in NASA especially when paired with a good instructor.

However, that all changed as I got solo'd and started running intermediate. I find the intermediate groups have a lot of drivers who feel the need to prove something. Not quite advanced/instructor level but still looking to cut down their times at the expense of sound judgment. Also it was at this point I started trying out other clubs in my search for 'best bang for buck' and you'd be surprised how poorly run certain clubs are but you don't find out till you try it once. Some groups let anyone and everyone run in any group they choose and safety just doesn't seem a high priority. It was then I began purchasing DE insurance (and became more selective in choosing which club to run with).

Now that I'm in advanced, although run groups tend to be more predictable, driving without insurance almost feels like driving w/o a seatbelt. I've become so used to the financial safety net that I almost don't feel comfortable pushing the car past 8/10ths unless I know I'm 'covered'. And anything less than 8/10ths on a good dry weather day almost seems like parade laps.

I compare DE insurance to seat belts but obviously it's not the same. In fact, I feel 'naked' getting into a car without a rollbar/6pt/HANS but you get the point about insurance.

I noticed that coming into intermediate, hadn't really thought it through though, thanks. And running with advanced solo drivers as solo intermediate I felt quite safe given their vastly superior car control and track awareness, not to mention decency on-track.

Haven't run with any groups but BMWCCA and NASA, and one driving school and about to try another on the seventh. Was going to try an open trackday last year at ECR but thought better of it. Going to stick with the driving schools and these two orgs for the forseeable future. The driving schools are good with fixed back shells and six points without a roll bar but the orgs aren't so there's a limit there since I can't safely run a cage on the street. Would like to run a four point but not ready to start gutting the interior yet.

Not able to see what it's like running at advanced track times but I can definitely see why you'd want a roll bar, harness, and HANS. The potential for damage and especially injury increases exponentially with speed. And this would make for a parade lap day if the risks piled up without some sort of insurances against potentialities.

Will see how the next couple of weekends go with the two driving schools, second time with one later in March, both in intermediate. And am going to look more closely at track insurance since horsepower is going up and weight is going down with the next round of work, likely to get much more dangerous. Thanks again.

[cburn]

I am in the process of deciding what to do for next spring. Here are the problems I ran into at BlackHawk farms on a 70F day. Car is a 2011 335xi AT, jb4 map 5, BMS intake, Running max cool, all nannies off.

1. Limp mode from coolant temps.
2. Serious brake issues. They shook the car so hard I couldn't really use them.
3. Runflats suck.
4. The car had some serious back end wishy washy issues. It felt very loose back there.

How I plan to address these issues:
1. For coolant issues I am considering this http://csfrace.com/product/bmw-racing-radiators/
600.00

FMIC
1295.00 http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/50

2. I plan to get Front Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (348x30) and Rear Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (336x22)
400.00
Also need pads Front And Rear Brake Pad Kit - Hawk HPS 5.0 (Do more research on this.. Pads are most important.)
220.00
Set of stainless lines
125
fluid and a pressure bleeder
70

3. Wheels and tires.
Dunno what to get yet. I'd love a 18x 8.5 square but I can't seem to find the deal or verify fitment.

4.
KW V1 Series Coilover Kit
1649.99

M3 Rear Sway Bar Upgrade Kit - 23.6mm EDIT: Turns out if you have an X don't bother with this. Later in the thread I got knowledge slapped and this won't really help. Keep reading to find out more.
310.00

Race Polyurethane Subframe Insert Set (Some say to go full race here. I'll look into this further.)
91.99

I suspect when I get the coolant issue resolved I will run into oil temps because my car didn't come with a stock cooler. If I do I'll go with the ER sport setup first.

As far as actual cost for just the day it's 500 bucks or so.

Good luck!

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by cburn

I am in the process of deciding what to do for next spring. Here are the problems I ran into at BlackHawk farms on a 70F day. Car is a 2011 335xi AT, jb4 map 5, BMS intake, Running max cool, all nannies off.

1. Limp mode from coolant temps.
2. Serious brake issues. They shook the car so hard I couldn't really use them.
3. Runflats suck.
4. The car had some serious back end wishy washy issues. It felt very loose back there.

How I plan to address these issues:
1. For coolant issues I am considering this http://csfrace.com/product/bmw-racing-radiators/
600.00

FMIC
1295.00 http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/50

2. I plan to get Front Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (348x30) and Rear Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (336x22)
400.00
Also need pads Front And Rear Brake Pad Kit - Hawk HPS 5.0
220.00
Set of stainless lines
125
fluid and a pressure bleeder
70

3. Wheels and tires.
Dunno what to get yet. I'd love a 18x 8.5 square but I can't seem to find the deal or verify fitment.

4.
KW V1 Series Coilover Kit
1649.99

M3 Rear Sway Bar Upgrade Kit - 23.6mm
310.00

Race Polyurethane Subframe Insert Set
91.99

I suspect when I get the coolant issue resolved I will run into oil temps because my car didn't come with a stock cooler. If I do I'll go with the ER sport setup first.

As far as actual cost for just the day it's 500 bucks or so.

Good luck!

Don't do rear sway if you are just gonna leaving the front sway stock... Unless you like drifting around the corners. And get some real track pads, like PFC 08 or Pagid Yellow. Hawk's street/track pads won't last long in a heavy/powerful cars like ours.

[cburn]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Don't do rear sway if you are just gonna leaving the front sway stock... Unless you like drifting around the corners. And get some real track pads, like PFC 08 or Pagid Yellow. Hawk's street/track pads won't last long in a heavy/powerful cars like ours.

Do you have an XI? As I understood it the M3 rear sway really evens the car out not too much over or under steer.

Thanks for the pad advice. That one is always hard to judge because I don't want super noisy brakes. I still need to daily drive the car.

Cheers,
Burn

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by cburn

Do you have an XI? As I understood it the M3 rear sway really evens the car out not too much over or under steer.

Thanks for the pad advice. That one is always hard to judge because I don't want super noisy brakes. I still need to daily drive the car.

Cheers,
Burn

Mine is RWD, but even w/ x-drive (which is RWD biased), a stiffer rear bar relative to the front is not the ideal setup for our cars.

[cburn]

Originally Posted by Cloud9blue

Mine is RWD, but even w/ x-drive (which is RWD biased), a stiffer rear bar relative to the front is not the ideal setup for our cars.

The I doesn't suffer from terrible under steer like the XI. You would have issues if you just did the rear because you didn't have under steer in the first place. I've seen a few posts about the XI that suggest it takes care of under steer and gets the car to behave like your I does stock.

I'll do some more research.
Thanks,
Burn

[ashmostro]

Originally Posted by cburn

I am in the process of deciding what to do for next spring. Here are the problems I ran into at BlackHawk farms on a 70F day. Car is a 2011 335xi AT, jb4 map 5, BMS intake, Running max cool, all nannies off.

1. Limp mode from coolant temps.
2. Serious brake issues. They shook the car so hard I couldn't really use them.
3. Runflats suck.
4. The car had some serious back end wishy washy issues. It felt very loose back there.

How I plan to address these issues:
1. For coolant issues I am considering this http://csfrace.com/product/bmw-racing-radiators/
600.00

FMIC
1295.00 http://www.evolutionracewerks.com/node/50

2. I plan to get Front Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (348x30) and Rear Slotted Brake Rotors - Pair (336x22)
400.00
Also need pads Front And Rear Brake Pad Kit - Hawk HPS 5.0
220.00
Set of stainless lines
125
fluid and a pressure bleeder
70

3. Wheels and tires.
Dunno what to get yet. I'd love a 18x 8.5 square but I can't seem to find the deal or verify fitment.

4.
KW V1 Series Coilover Kit
1649.99

M3 Rear Sway Bar Upgrade Kit - 23.6mm
310.00

Race Polyurethane Subframe Insert Set
91.99

I suspect when I get the coolant issue resolved I will run into oil temps because my car didn't come with a stock cooler. If I do I'll go with the ER sport setup first.

As far as actual cost for just the day it's 500 bucks or so.

Good luck!

1) are you sure limp mode came from coolant temp and not oil temp? Important distinction as it informs what you need to address. Maybe you need an oil cooler and not better coolant. FMIC will help too but look at the oil temps first.
2) brakes- rotors re incidental and won't improve your thermal capacity on their own. get them if they are worn or if you don't feel like scrubbing old pad compound off of them. what you need are race capable pads (pagid, carbotech, stoptech SR, cobalt, etc) and race fluid like castrol SRF.
3) get stickier non RFT tires. Either max perf or extreme perf summers.
4) floaty back end has more to do with the subframe bushings than anything else. get some M3 or poly or even delrin back there and you will gain back a good deal of control. there are other bushings that need work too but this is the most important as it anchors (or doesn't) the whole subframe in place.

[cburn]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

1) are you sure limp mode came from coolant temp and not oil temp? Important distinction as it informs what you need to address. Maybe you need an oil cooler and not better coolant. FMIC will help too but look at the oil temps first.
2) brakes- rotors re incidental and won't improve your thermal capacity on their own. get them if they are worn or if you don't feel like scrubbing old pad compound off of them. what you need are race capable pads (pagid, carbotech, stoptech SR, cobalt, etc) and race fluid like castrol SRF.
3) get stickier non RFT tires. Either max perf or extreme perf summers.
4) floaty back end has more to do with the subframe bushings than anything else. get some M3 or poly or even delrin back there and you will gain back a good deal of control. there are other bushings that need work too but this is the most important as it anchors (or doesn't) the whole subframe in place.

Positive the cooling was not oil related. It's fairly common with the AT because the heat exchanger for the transmission uses the engines coolant.

The subframe inserts won't do the trick, eh?

Thanks for taking the time to respond,
Burn