[TheBingoBalls]

Quick summary:

Involved in a minor accident where I was hit on the driver side causing scrapes to the bumper area/fender. I was able to drive with no issues other than noticing that the steering was loose and alignment off (as expected).

Today I went in for an appointment to address the alignment issues. For the most part, alignment was put back to spec - steering was tight and going over imperfections didn't cause any extra play felt through the steering wheel but there were issues found which I'm a bit wary of:

- Steering wheel is now off centre - steering wheel dead centre results in the car drifting to the right (need to turn wheel left to straighten car)

BMW also informed me that:

• Both tie rods damaged and needed to be replaced. Could the accident have caused some damage to the tie rods? Maybe, but I find it hard to believe that both were damaged in an accident that was relatively minor. This was not a maintenance issue as I just replaced both tie rods (inner and outer) this past summer, so they are new.
  
• Front camber is off a bit.

My Questions:

I understand how each component related to alignment works (toe, caster, camber) but not in detail and in relation with each other. From what I understand, front camber is not really adjustable so if it's out of spec, how would this be corrected if BMW did not even attempt to correct it?

Assuming the tie rods are damaged, does it affect anything other than toe? When the BMW tech explained it to me, it was like he was hinting or leading on that the bad tie rods are affecting the camber which I don't believe.

So my main concern/issue is that while the alignment is in spec, the steering wheel is not centered and may not be related to the tie rods but the camber on the left side?

If anyone can chime in and provide some suggestions on how to correct this, it would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has further questions that my help me out, I will try to answer them.

[feuer]

All camber, caster and toe are dependent of each other and change in one will affect the others, but to answer your question bad tie rods are not the reason for off center steering wheel. The steering wheel need to be locked at center position prior they adjust anything. Lastly, after the mechanics of the alignments are done the steering angle sensor needs to be reset.

The dealer is not neceseraly the best repair facility. All depends from the person working on your car and at dealerships you get the most right off the school with almost to none experience performing simple repairs like brakes, suspension, oil change and etc.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by feuer

All camber, caster and toe are dependent of each other and change in one will affect the others, but to answer your question bad tie rods are not the reason for off center steering wheel. The steering wheel need to be locked at center position prior they adjust anything.

The dealer is not neceseraly the best repair facility.

I had all repairs to the body through an authorized BMW repair shop, one that I have gone to before and trust really well so going to the dealer for the alignment was included - no cost to me as the party who hit me paid for everything with cash.

As for the alignment issue, what should I be looking at to correct the issue? Should I go to an indy and let them redo the alignment, perhaps the dealer made an error or should I really be looking to see if something is really worn out and damaged?

From the receipt, the tech listed:

• Tie rods damaged (I don't think they are and noted above, wouldn't be the cause of off-center steering wheel)
• Front camber is off center a bit

Going back to the dealer isn't an option because they won't do anything since they informed me that because of the issues they found, it's not guaranteed that the alignment will be perfect so going back to them would require me to pay for new tie rods.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

• Tie rods damaged (I don't think they are and noted above, wouldn't be the cause of off-center steering wheel)
• Front camber is off center a bit

tie rods are easy to do and not very expensive. they could be damaged, or at least one of them from the accident and the dealer always would prefer replacing them in pairs.
you can go to indi of course, but don't disclose the accident and the experience from the dealer.
just have them start from scratch and see what the come up with.
the camber is somewhat adjustable, you just need to remove the centering pin on the strut mount.
the easiest way would be to drill it out.
here is more info:
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218440
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=521177
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=358576

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by feuer

tie rods are easy to do and not very expensive. they could be damaged, or at least one of them from the accident and the dealer always would prefer replacing them in pairs.
you can go to indi of course, but don't disclose the accident and the experience from the dealer.
just have them start from scratch and see what the come up with.
the camber is somewhat adjustable, you just need to remove the centering pin on the strut mount.

I personally did the tie rods myself when I replaced them this past summer so it's not a big deal if I have to replace them again (I just have to spend another $150).

With the pin, can you adjust in in small amounts or is one of those things that it's either use it or don't? If camber is off on one side, how would adjusting one side help the situation? Even if camber is off spec (I can't imagine it being off spec that much), do absolutely need to adjust it? I apologize for all these questions. I'm probably going to go to an indi, but I just want to get as much information so I get a better idea if it was just an error on the dealer or if there is real some mechanical problem that needs to be addressed.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

I personally did the tie rods myself when I replaced them this past summer so it's not a big deal if I have to replace them again (I just have to spend another $150).

With the pin, can you adjust in in small amounts or is one of those things that it's either use it or don't? If camber is off on one side, how would adjusting one side help the situation? I apologize for all these questions. I'm probably going to go to an indi, but I just want to get as much information so I get a better idea if it was just an error on the dealer or if there is real some mechanical problem.

if you are mechanically inclined to replace the tie rods yourself then with out a doubt you can inspect them for damage.
with the pin you can not adjust, with out you can, up to 0.5 degree.
even with toe in/out spot on car will pull to the side with less negative camber.
go to indi but make sure the can reset the steering angle position sensor.

How about giving us some alignment specs instead of telling us that "settings are a bit off?" Not sure how you expect us to ballpark a guess at how to fix a problem when we don't know how bad it is to begin with.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

How about giving us some alignment specs instead of telling us that "settings are a bit off?" Not sure how you expect us to ballpark a guess at how to fix a problem when we don't know how bad it is to begin with.

It actually isn't bad. The issue is that the steering wheel is off-center but it drives straight - it doesn't drift in any direction. From checking the forums, this problem seems like the wheel wasn't straight when the alignment was done, something that is easily fixed.

I just put this thread together to see if it could be another problem because the service tech found problems and I was wondering if they could be related or if he was lying. Ex. feuer said that even if toe was 100% to spec, if camber is off on one side, it will drift to a side. That makes sense, but from driving, I did not notice the car drifting to a side, so was the service tech lying?

If what I previously posted read in any way that I had other issues other than the crooked steering wheel, I apologize.

[only1harry]

The crooked steering wheel can easily be corrected by locking it at dead center and readjusting the toe in the front (doing another wheel alignment for the front only).
The fact that the car tracks straight means the alignment is good, and more than likely there are no damaged suspension components.

So what it looks like to me is that the Dealer did not center or lock the steering wheel properly, or they are using it to blame the tie rods and get more $ out of you.

Harry

[feuer]

Originally Posted by only1harry

The crooked steering wheel can easily be corrected by locking it at dead center and readjusting the toe in the front (doing another wheel alignment for the front only).

To do proper alignment one need to start with the rear, ten the front and at the end reset the steering angle position se sensor.

You are spot-on on all you wrote above.

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

[*]Front camber is off a bit.

HOW FAR OFF!? GOT THE SPECS OR NOT?!

Since you've replaced the tie rods once already, you're probably mechanically inclined to just fix the steering wheel problem yourself:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749585

That should help you avoid shithead mechanics from further feeding you a bunch of bologna.

[only1harry]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

HOW FAR OFF!? GOT THE SPECS OR NOT?!

Since you've replaced the tie rods once already, you're probably mechanically inclined to just fix the steering wheel problem yourself:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749585

That should help you avoid shithead mechanics from further feeding you a bunch of bologna.

OP, I hope for your own sake that you do not follow the instructions on that link. Several things can go wrong, and the outcome of manually turning the tie rods an "equal" amount on each side (which is hard to achieve) without the alignment machine to verify, never guarantees the toe will change equally for both wheels. Take the car back and have them center the steering wheel and redo the alignment.

To give you an idea how wrong the OP of that thread is. He said he had +0.12 toe on the front L & R for a total of 0.24 deg. toe (or inches, whichever setting the alignment machine was set for, inches or degrees). He was correct about that.
However when he turns the steering wheel left as he used as an example, he was way off with his #'s. The "inside" left tire gets more toed OUT (points outward away from the car), and the "outside" right tire gets toe'd in (points inward). So the wheels for example after turning the steering wheel left would read something like this: front Left -0.04, front Right +0.28 for a total toe of 0.24. Or any combination thereof where the left tire has a lot LESS toe-in than the right when turning the wheel left. Or to use his numbers with a 0.02 difference after slightly turning left, it would be front Left 0.10, and front Right 0.14 (total still 0.24).

Harry

Originally Posted by only1harry

OP, I hope for your own sake that you do not follow the instructions on that link. Several things can go wrong, and the outcome of manually turning the tie rods an "equal" amount on each side (which is hard to achieve) without the alignment machine to verify, never guarantees the toe will change equally for both wheels. Take the car back and have them center the steering wheel and redo the alignment.

lol agreed, several things can go wrong if you are a complete buffoon anyway and shouldn't be working on your car to begin with. But adjusting toe and/or camber is painfully easy on this platform and there is no reason not to do it yourself as long as you know how to use an open ended wrench and own a ruler. A "mechanic" would make the SAME EXACT adjustments to achieve the SAME EXACT results:

Originally Posted by only1harry

Or to use his numbers with a 0.02 difference after slightly turning left, it would be front Left 0.10, and front Right 0.14 (total still 0.24).

Yeah, exactly. Those are the same exact figures he already mentioned in the DIY. Regardless of what the theoretical numbers are when pointed left or right or anywhere in between when you have an off-center steering wheel, the process for correcting it AND checking it is the same. You either go back to an alignment shop to verify results (which the DIY poster did and received PERFECT specs L and R) or you string the car, measure it yourself, adjust if necessary, and stop wasting time/money for "professional" alignments altogether.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

Yeah, exactly. Those are the same exact figures he already mentioned in the DIY. Regardless of what the theoretical numbers are when pointed left or right or anywhere in between when you have an off-center steering wheel, the process for correcting it AND checking it is the same. You either go back to an alignment shop to verify results (which the DIY poster did and received PERFECT specs L and R) or you string the car, measure it yourself, adjust if necessary, and stop wasting time/money for "professional" alignments altogether.

Looks straight forward and something I can easily do in my garage. Thanks for all the help guys!

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

Yeah, exactly. Those are the same exact figures he already mentioned in the DIY. Regardless of what the theoretical numbers are when pointed left or right or anywhere in between when you have an off-center steering wheel, the process for correcting it AND checking it is the same. You either go back to an alignment shop to verify results (which the DIY poster did and received PERFECT specs L and R) or you string the car, measure it yourself, adjust if necessary, and stop wasting time/money for "professional" alignments altogether.

Adjusted the tie rods this morning and everything seems to be ok. Car still tracking straight and the steering wheel is centred. I guess my only question now is, doing it without a machine, your accuracy is never going to be as good. How much of a difference does the smallest adjustment make? I made the necessary markings to ensure that I could get it as close as possible but interested to see if really needs to be pin point accurate.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

Adjusted the tie rods this morning and everything seems to be ok. Car still tracking straight and the steering wheel is centred. I guess my only question now is, doing it without a machine, your accuracy is never going to be as good. How much of a difference does the smallest adjustment make? I made the necessary markings to ensure that I could get it as close as possible but interested to see if really needs to be pin point accurate.

Even an alignment rack will not give 100% accurate reading every time which is contrary to general beleive. Depends how long time ago it was calibrated and how good the calibration was. Even then chances are that a same car will end up with two different readings just by going up and down on the rack twice in row. So don't worry much. If steering wheel is centered and is tracking straight leave it as is and just enjoy driving it.

Originally Posted by feuer

Even an alignment rack will not give 100% accurate reading every time which is contrary to general beleive. Depends how long time ago it was calibrated and how good the calibration was. Even then chances are that a same car will end up with two different readings just by going up and down on the rack twice in row. So don't worry much. If steering wheel is centered and is tracking straight leave it as is and just enjoy driving it.

This x1000.

You're kidding yourself if you think that typical camera-based alignment systems are anywhere close to 100% accurate and/or will give repeatable results each and every time (most important IMO). As mentioned above, there are so many factors that play into their accuracy/consistency that thinking they are the end all/be all when it comes to properly aligning your vehicle is definitely far from correct.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by FCobra94

This x1000.

You're kidding yourself if you think that typical camera-based alignment systems are anywhere close to 100% accurate and/or will give repeatable results each and every time (most important IMO). As mentioned above, there are so many factors that play into their accuracy/consistency that thinking they are the end all/be all when it comes to properly aligning your vehicle is definitely far from correct.

Other than Watkins SmartStings and SmartCamber there's Accu-Lign

I have the former but it's a real pita, takes practice I guess. The latter is what the shop uses both in-house and at the track on the level pad when setting up their cars, as needed. Seems to be pretty precise. Still requires a dead level surface of course.