[garyhgaryh]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Well.. that's what I thought. I tried to explain why they were fine but Eugen got offended and claimed that we had different expectations. But he can speak for himself at this point. Especially after this ridiculous fiasco of a thread.... sheesh.

Shiv

Not to jump on anyone's bandwagon, but my supra and typhoon do the same thing! I haven't blown the motor yet (even though I run 19psi on pump gas on my supra - 91 psi ca gas).

[!Xoible]

Originally Posted by garyhgaryh

Not to jump on anyone's bandwagon, but my supra and typhoon do the same thing! I haven't blown the motor yet (even though I run 19psi on pump gas on my supra - 91 psi ca gas).

supra is japanese, it can take a beating. german cars cant take shit man

Originally Posted by mantis

supra is japanese, it can take a beating. german cars cant take shit man

[garyhgaryh]

Originally Posted by Vyruz Reaper

i think its silly for you even to fathom to post the email log.... if you do that you'll loose even more respect down the line...

That's why he asked permission (duh). I'd like to see 'em.

[Noize]

Originally Posted by lawdude

I thought I was being plain. I'll try to be plainer.

Eugen said he's not a tuner. Eugen said Shiv is a tuner. The tuner disagreed with the non-tuner's interpretation of data. Apparently yet another beta tester holds a position contrary to Eugen's.

I said previously that I have no problem with Eugen stopping beta testing for whatever reason he wants. However, Eugen made a rash decision by going public. I don't know anything about his sleep patterns.

I hope that's understandable. That's as slow as I can type.

Make that two beta testers who see things contrary to Eugen. My 2.0.2 is completely stable in performance.

I've been driving 18 years and owned 5 turbocharged cars, all modded. EVERY ONE of them had little boost spikes in different gears after upshift at immediate throttle input. Or they boosted a bit higher in high gears than lower ones. To complain of a spike of 0.5psi is beyond ridiculous IMO. Don't like it? Don't drive a turbo car!

I feel Eugen was often demanding and likely overstepping by overstating his contribution: "This map is ready for release to the public.", etc. IMO, a beta tester should test and report, but not try to dictate terms of terms of tuning, timetable of release, etc.

In the end, we beta testers are still just customers. But the word "beta" means that we are the ones helping detect bugs and report them. Its up to the tuner (who has the actual knowledge) to take that data and use what he needs and disregard what is not important to each case. IMO, this is where Eugen made an error.

I have also spent a lot of effort testing maps and lots of time on the phone with Shiv and Dustin about how the car reacted. They are working hard to make these production maps the very best they can be.

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Park2670

Ive been thinking the same thing. While the PROcede is a great product, the "issues" everybody is having scares me. Plus the fact that I work for a dealer does not float well with BMWNA

what are the issues? will it need tissues?

[RiXst3r]

some good info to read...

Boost creep is rising boost due to not enough exhaust bypassing the housing. For example, you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor it, you get a quick rise to 13 or 14 psi. But then as rpm's climb, the boost creeps higher and higher: 14, 15, 16, 17, etc. properly sizing the wastegate hole is one cure for boost creep

Spiking is when your wastegate hole is large enough, but your actuator can is taking too long to fill with compressed air, so you *temporarily* overshoot your boost level. Example: you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor it it quickly rises to 16 psi, but then gradually drops downward towards 13 psi again.

A common problem with modded engines is a combination of spiking AND boost creep. That's where you're set for 13 psi, and when you floor if it overshoots to 16 psi, *begins* to drop back down, but as the rpm's rise it goes up again!

Normal boost rise when set to 13 psi = shoots up to 14, then 13, 13, 13...
Spiking = shoots up to 16, then 15, 14, 13, 13, 13...
Boost creep = shoots up to 14, then 13, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17...
Spiking and boost creep = shoots up to 16, then 15, 14, 13, 14, 15, 16,17...
Set a manual boost control to 11 psi and floor it slowly in high gear. It should go to 11 psi and hold it pretty well. If it starts to slowly climb over 11 psi as the rpm's get high, that's "creeping". The boost creeps higher at high rpm's because there's too much exhaust flow for the wastegate hole to bypass.

Now go to 11 psi again, but tromp on it quickly! It will shoot to 13, or 14, or 15 psi, then drop down to 11 and stay there. That's "spiking".

Spiking is a quick flash of high boost that goes a little beyond your set boost point. If you are set for 11 psi, and you tromp on it quickly, this might happen: boost "spikes" to 14, quickly drops to 11, then slowly "creeps" back to 14 or more as the rpm's climb. Now you are seeing spiking followed by creeping!


Also....


Ambient temperature plays a huge role in how well your engine runs. In general, the cooler ambient temperature, the better your engine runs due to the laws of thermodynamics. The colder air causes your engine to make more HP (more work under the curve with lower temps), therefore more energetic exhaust gases, therefore your car is more prone to boost creep when it is cold out. If you live in an area that does not see colder temperatures (AZ for example) too often, then boost creep may never become a problem.

[cn555ic]

what happened i thought Shivs was going to start a new thread....I want to know if its safe to install my V2 upgrade this weekend...Eugene i trust your knowledge and from what i read i am not too confident with the unpredictable boost spikes up to as high as 22 psi....If i go really conservative with the torgue setting like 80 percent across the board will this problem still occur...If so at what settings do we not see these spikes!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

what happened i thought Shivs was going to start a new thread....I want to know if its safe to install my V2 upgrade this weekend...Eugene i trust your knowledge and from what i read i am not too confident with the unpredictable boost spikes up to as high as 22 psi....If i go really conservative with the torgue setting like 80 percent across the board will this problem still occur...If so at what settings do we not see these spikes!

Install it and run the baseline map. Don't mess with your user torque setting. You'll be fine contrary to the hype.

Shiv

[garyhgaryh]

Originally Posted by sdwilly

I know it's not this, but it reminds me of boost creep I used to get on my old Eclipse (years ago) before I went to a HKS Wastegate.

I get similiar boost on my Typhoon with the stock wastegaste. It was so bad the truck would shut down. I wonder if it's similar to what's going on here?

[e.n335]

I checked the datalog again and there is no proof that I did not accelerate moderate to hard. So the only person who knows for sure is me. Now, time will tell if others will experience the same I did. In fact I accelerated in a way that should give me 8-9psi ( I did this often yesterday, tested for about 150 miles, 3 hours ) and boost kept climbing up to 13.3 psi, falling back to 8-9psi. I did not even feel this additional boost.

So you will see whether it occurs or not.

- Eugen

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

what happened i thought Shivs was going to start a new thread....I want to know if its safe to install my V2 upgrade this weekend...Eugene i trust your knowledge and from what i read i am not too confident with the unpredictable boost spikes up to as high as 22 psi....If i go really conservative with the torgue setting like 80 percent across the board will this problem still occur...If so at what settings do we not see these spikes!

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98472

[sflgator]

I stepped away for work for the past 7 hours and all I can say is another 10+ pages of OMFG!!!! But, I hope all of this resolved soon.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sflgator

I stepped away for work for the past 7 hours and all I can say is another 10+ pages of OMFG!!!! But, I hope all of this resolved soon.

It was never unresolved.

shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by e.n335

The situation at the time I quitted testing has been that scalbert reported the boost spikes are back again ( after increasing his values by 5 points, 30% of the time in his testing scenario and 1 time 20psi ). Shiv expected a failed HPFP.

Again, use the whole information, not just a piece of it. I posted it previously which Shiv, again, provided a link. I find it very disappointing that you would post about someone else’s situation prior to them making a full diagnosis. I was out of town and had no way to fully investigate until I got home. When I did, I determined it was most likely a loose connection in the harness which was exacerbated by the cold weather overnight.

I will be testing everything in full, in a correct manner, while understanding what I am dealing with over the weekend. And only then a proclamation should be made.

Lastly, a HPFP is not going to fail due to boost. I would expect any basic wrencher to understand this. The differential pressure and increased load on the injectors, and subsequent load on the pump amounts to about 0.3% change. I know they are delicate, but not that delicate.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Insofar as Shiv is concerned, I suspect he'll have an ironclad non-disclosure agreement with all beta testers in the future.

What, are you offering your legal services.

[Hegemony]

Originally Posted by Noize

I feel Eugen was often demanding and likely overstepping by overstating his contribution: "This map is ready for release to the public.", etc. IMO, a beta tester should test and report, but not try to dictate terms of terms of tuning, timetable of release, etc.

This.


I also found the number of people demanding releases of this or that map on the forums over the past two weeks obnoxious.

[iPodAddict]

cliffs?

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

Set a manual boost control to 11 psi and floor it slowly in high gear. It should go to 11 psi and hold it pretty well.

In my experience, a MBC will often drop boost as the revs climb. This is due to the control source often taken at the compressor outlet and the prewssure drop increasing as flow increases.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Again, use the whole information, not just a piece of it. I posted it previously which Shiv, again, provided a link. I find it very disappointing that you would post about someone else’s situation prior to them making a full diagnosis. I was out of town and had no way to fully investigate until I got home. When I did, I determined it was most likely a loose connection in the harness which was exacerbated by the cold weather overnight.

I will be testing everything in full, in a correct manner, while understanding what I am dealing with over the weekend. And only then a proclamation should be made.

Lastly, a HPFP is not going to fail due to boost. I would expect any basic wrencher to understand this. The differential pressure and increased load on the injectors, and subsequent load on the pump amounts to about 0.3% change. I know they are delicate, but not that delicate.

Thank you for getting involved. I'm sure you had better things to do.

[scalbert]

What I am finding falls back to a post I made a while back; there is too much drama and too little real information. What I truly find unfortunate for Vishnu is that the beta testers, Eugen being one of them, never saw the spikes occurring. I would expect, as a tester, due diligence would have been performed. I had mine on for less than a few days of real driving when I was noticing the variations and was trying to determine the methods to generate them.

Now back to the matter, a small spike is nothing. In addition, the DME/PROcede needs to adapt when changes are made. Stop with the drama, there will always be fluctuations in boost, stock did, 1.47 did and so does 2.x.

Why didn't 1.47 spike (mine did slightly) on throttle input. The boost ramp rate was much slower, most likely due to the bypassed solenoid. This should be easily understood by individuals testing products. If it ramps slower, it is easier to control. But you also lose the response which V2 gave back. I can live with a small spike. We just need to determine the details on how and why it occurs and how to correct or limit them.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Thank you for getting involved. I'm sure you had better things to do.

Naw, just got back from a CNG production facility in Alabama. Was eager to catch up.